is 'any' CO reading in a house acceptable?


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Old 08-31-12, 05:03 PM
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is 'any' CO reading in a house acceptable?

i know this topic has been hit on before but my boiler guy is telling me 400 is the legal limit. my belief is nothing should be in the house. he's coming out tomorrow to check things out but my one day old install had a reading of 20 three feet from the meter plus i had a bad smell..so i think something is amiss.

and i cannot believe any CO is acceptable in a house. especially when the utility room is in the living quarters

so whats the truth?

i can also see some flame thru the front opening ..but he told me that they told him that cannot be sealed, that it needs the air.
 
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Old 08-31-12, 05:15 PM
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The truth is that I have no faith whatsoever in the competency of your installer.

Getting the carbon monoxide reading inside your home down to zero is the goal. You may not be able to achieve that goal, depending on how close to a busy highway you live but no way in heck should you have anything approaching 400 ppm for even a few minutes.

How did you measure the 20 ppm near the gas meter? Is your meter located indoors? Did you read what I wrote in the other thread about CO monitors?
 
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Old 08-31-12, 05:24 PM
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yesterday after the install it was 35...then went to zero later on after adjusting things a while..it's never been higher than that..that i've seen..of course maybe the fan in the other room sucking the air out made it stay at zero..unsure..didnt think i needed to test it

today it was 20 after my shower...the CO meter is plugged in 3 ft from the boiler, about 3 ft off the ground. the meter never registered anything while i had oil so this is why i'm worried.

i've been googling like crazy and it does seem that under 35 isnt supposed to do anything long term but over 35 will Carbon Monoxide

i read the other thread and it seems like the boiler will put out CO but the issue is it getting in the house plus i have that awful smell too. there's no way that can be normal
 

Last edited by luckydriver; 08-31-12 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 08-31-12, 05:45 PM
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Just for some food for thought: It would be almost imposable to have a gas stove/range/cook top and have zero CO in a house.

Also, Not a pro here, I would think unless the appliance is power vented, you will get some CO in the house that does not draft.

Some handy info found Here :

What CO level is dangerous to my health?

The health effects of CO depend on the CO concentration and length of exposure, as well as each individual's health condition. CO concentration is measured in parts per million (ppm). Most people will not experience any symptoms from prolonged exposure to CO levels of approximately 1 to 70 ppm but some heart patients might experience an increase in chest pain. As CO levels increase and remain above 70 ppm, symptoms become more noticeable and can include headache, fatigue and nausea. At sustained CO concentrations above 150 to 200 ppm, disorientation, unconsciousness, and death are possible.
 
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Old 08-31-12, 06:01 PM
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Any carbon monoxide monitor made for residential usage is of questionable accuracy. If its readout is 20 it could be 200. The smell enough is indication that something is seriously wrong.

Google low range co monitor for some interesting reading and videos.
 

Last edited by Furd; 08-31-12 at 06:03 PM. Reason: Added info.
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Old 08-31-12, 06:05 PM
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im' unsure exactly what power venting is but sounds like involves a fan. and i really have no idea what is normal CO wise, i have zero experience.

i do know i'm not happy with the smell throughout my house. is that normal? if so.. then i may regret doing this but i cant change now. or gas co will charge me 3000

holidays i go to a person with a gas house and never smell anything. so if he eliminates the smell and the CO goes 'down' enough i guess ill have to live with it. it's def not firing right..he admits that at least

and ill have an excuse for being brain dead
 
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Old 08-31-12, 06:08 PM
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the meter he uses to set up the unit..if he just holds it out in the air is that accurate? he said it costs 1500 lol

i cant be sure but i think the other guy here said it had a reading even when out of the pipe..i think i want to compare his meter to mine just to see what is up

also i just talked to my gf and she told me when she starts her stove at home it smells..so maybe im worried about nothing
 
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Old 08-31-12, 06:20 PM
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the meter he uses to set up the unit..if he just holds it out in the air is that accurate? he said it costs 1500 lol
When was his combustion analyzer last serviced? When was a full calibration done on the analyzer? Without knowing these it is impossible to say whether or not his analyzer is accurate.

Have you sent a PM to SeattlePioneer asking his opinion?
 
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Old 08-31-12, 09:08 PM
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The indoor reading should match the outdoor reading.

Products of combustion from furnaces and water heaters are supposed to be vented outside, so there's no such thing as acceptable leakage.

If your contractor said otherwise, his gas license needs to be taken away before he kills someone. Call your gas utility. Do not use the boiler until it's looked at.
 
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Old 08-31-12, 10:28 PM
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The keys to an effective carbon monoxide investigation....


1. Good quality equipment that has been calibrated recently and with which the investigator is experienced using.

2. Good training and reasonably extensive experience investigating a wide range of carbon monoxide complaints.

3. Competence in understanding various kinds of gas equipment and other fuel burning equipment.


Most equipment installers lack the competence and experience to do a competent investigation.

I would call your gas utility and ask them to investigate your CO problem. As a gas utility repairman and first responder, I did many hundreds of such investigations, often several in a day. We were better at that than anyone else I know. Also, we responded usually within minutes to a half hour, and made no charge for the investigation.

The downside was that defective or hazardous equipment that couldn't be immediately repaired was shut off or disconnected. We didn't take chances with people lives, even when the people affected wanted to take those chances.
 
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Old 09-01-12, 06:05 AM
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gas has been off all night and i swear it still smells in the room..fired it up for a few min and no CO but def stinks.

and i still think it's funny i can see the flame around the opening of the burner.i bet thats where the smell's coming out ..im not so fond of this universal midco burner. maybe we should try the carlin that is in the literature for the boiler.
 
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Old 09-01-12, 06:41 AM
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CO has no odor. What you are smelling is part of the combustion, which you shouldn't. It sounds like this was a new install, a new heating appliances will give off an odor for a couple of heating cycles to burn off manufacturing oils. Maybe that is what your are smelling?
 
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Old 09-01-12, 09:09 AM
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>


It sounds like you have a gas conversion burner in an older oil furnace or boiler perhaps?


Conversion burners require correct installation and maintenance to operate safely. They can easily be very dangerous.
 
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Old 09-01-12, 09:50 AM
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CO has no odor. What you are smelling is part of the combustion, which you shouldn't. It sounds like this was a new install, a new heating appliances will give off an odor for a couple of heating cycles to burn off manufacturing oils. Maybe that is what your are smelling?
new install of burner on 4 yr old oil solaia low mass boiler....he cleaned it out before doing the install..said he had to even though just cleaned in december i think.

if it's normal burn off, that would be nice but then shouldnt he tell me..ugh...it was running about 3 hours day of install with him trying to tune it.
 
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Old 09-01-12, 09:55 AM
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It sounds like you have a gas conversion burner in an older oil furnace or boiler perhaps?


Conversion burners require correct installation and maintenance to operate safely. They can easily be very dangerous.
http://www.boyertownfurnace.com/Resi...aia4pager7.pdf
Solaia Residential Cast Iron Boilers Boyertown Furnace


i also worry since the midco isnt listed in the manual, maybe it shouldnt be used at all..the manual says

When using the Beckett AFG, Carlin EZ-1,Carlin EZ gas or the Beckett CF375 , the opening in the
refractory on the door must be enlarged to insert the oil burner without damaging the door
refractory

and the brouchure says

The Solaia’s service-friendly, quick-disconnect burner mount
accommodates both Riello F5, Beckett AFG, Beckett NX, and
Carlin EZ-1 oil burners and the Carlin EZ gas burner

so maybe i shoudl tell him to go to EZ gas and be done with it? i'm definitely gonna ask if the factory said this is even compatible
 
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Old 09-01-12, 01:50 PM
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ok here's what i remember..we talked about a lot. hope i remembered it all


dialed back input to 103 from about 125ish...reading at the meter was 17.5 revolutions..but my meter is weird. it will spin..stop..then shoot ahead. unsure if i should tell the company or if it matters

the booming is much less severe now but it is there and it is irregular..sometimes a louder boom, sometimes more smooth. definitely needs attention. CO in the pipe is 175 now..much higher than he wants..he said he shoots for under 100. EFF went up 1 % because if the decrease in input

when he got here and turned it on, CO on my meter shot up to 6, the house was all closed up nothing open. after his adjustments, my CO meter never went above 0. i frequently put my nose down near the boiler and smelled little to no smell. he was here bit less than 2 hours. so for now all appears ok.

the manual shows at 100K to 150K no orifice and he has none on..it shows restrictor on and he has it on...the book says at 100K the manifold is 1.0 and he says he has about 1.3 now if im remembering correctly...this was a lot of info an i may be off a bit

the midco guy will come out someday and they will discuss.

my chimney is 6x9 and he said only a 5x5 will fit. he also said he's worried adding the liner will create more backpressure and we are back to my issue. he will talk to midco about this. he said my chimney is in great shape, no mortar issues and no water streaks at all..he did say if this winter i have water leaking out the bottom into the house then he def would have to install a liner. i asked what about townships that require a liner, how would he deal with that..he had no real answer.

he said maybe he would try the orafice in but that would probably take the input too low and it wouldnt necessarily fix it. i guess the midco guy will be the key in all this.

i offered to go with the EZ carlin in the solaia manual but he said he always got midco to work..but did admit he never had midco on this boiler

so ill leave things alone and see what happens over the next day or two as i do wash etc.
 
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Old 09-01-12, 10:04 PM
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It doesn't sound like the installer has a clue as to how to set up the conversion burner. That's not at all unusual.


Your furnace or boiler sounds like it was probably being grossly overfired, which was likely causing huge amounts of carbon monoxide to be produced in the combustion gasses.

Guessing and supposing doesn't cut it. I'd leave the burner off until it has been properly set up by someone that knows what they are doing. Until that time it is dangerous to operate.
 
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Old 09-02-12, 04:29 PM
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understood and i have to use it for hot water, i have no options, but turn it off when i leave the house and i'm done using it.

a few more questions so i have the info at hand:

1 the chimney issue..will putting in a 5x5 liner increase backpressure or not. if it does , then how do we resolve the issue because if as you say it's already an issue. and at 103K i dont think he wants to go down much more. i have a large house. he said the chamber is very small in the boiler and thats the issue.

2 is it normal to see a tiny bit of flame thru the space between the 'gun shaft' and the "gasket"..i dont know what else to call it...

3 related to number 2, is a bit of smell normal if you are in the same room as the boiler when it fires. when it ran a full cycle today i did not smell it outside the room, just when i got close to it. i have no more CO issues as of now.

4 is it possible that the burner simply cant be made to work with my boiler or does it just take someone more skilled..for some reason he isnt taking me up on my offer to spend more money on the carlin that the boiler book calls for..i've mentioned it many times.
 
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Old 09-04-12, 01:13 PM
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i think i answered question by reading my manual

The burner tube must be sealed air tight into the
combustion chamber liner opening with refractory material
as shown by Figures 1 and 2.

i think thats saying i shoudlnt be able to see any flame from outside? maybe my guy didnt read the book lol
 
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Old 09-04-12, 04:00 PM
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UPDATE:

he called and turns out my boiler is positive pressure and the midco is meant for negative..i dont know who's fault it is but he's blaming the rep for not knowing and he relied on him...what can i do?

he did finally talk to the boiler manufacturer and they said they had no issues with the carlin but first the midco rep (who coincidntally is a rep for the boiler company too) has to come out and verify the midco sucks and then they will do an exchange. i have no idea why they cant take our word for it but thats how it goes. it will be a few hundred more but since it's in the manual and the boiler company approved it i'm feeling ok that the carlin will indeed work.plus from what i see on the web it has a pretty blue cover lol

will update you next week on the install
 
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Old 09-12-12, 06:01 AM
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It doesn't sound like the installer has a clue as to how to set up the conversion burner. That's not at all unusual.


Your furnace or boiler sounds like it was probably being grossly overfired, which was likely causing huge amounts of carbon monoxide to be produced in the combustion gasses.
well the verdict is he DID know how to set it up but it wasnt made for the boiler. the midco rep came out and basically admitted they were using me as a guinea pig. the rep tried for well over an hour to get it to run right and he couldnt. gave me some lame azz comment that this should be good up to a positive pressure of X etc. but it's really meant for neg pressure.... but after over an hour of him wasting my time, my gas and my patience, i put my foot down and asked if all the settings they were fooling with would have to be done once the carlin was put in

he had the nerve to ask if we were definitely putting in the carlin and i said YES i want the one that the factory manual says is APPROVED and not some other application which you obviously cannot even get to work today yourself..the room got pretty quiet..

they immediately began switching out the burners after that they woulda played all day there if i didnt watch them i'm convinced. cant they do playtime back at the office and try different combos of boiilers and burners? dont understand why customers like me are guinea pigs

after some repiping and the carlin was fired up, it took one air adjustment and it was done..less than 5 min to install vs the 3 other times my guy was there trying to make the midco work. i'm sure midco has their applications but even the midco rep rated this a "do not install" on his list with my boiler and i hope they really have such a list to prevent an unwary consumer from getting screwed (and wasting installers time and money as well)

hopefully i have no issues..but so far so good

dialed input down to 115 so hopefully saving a bit more fuel too. lowered DHW temp on the tekmar to 145 target, which i should have done all summer
 

Last edited by luckydriver; 09-12-12 at 06:47 AM.
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Old 09-19-12, 05:45 AM
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Carbon Monoxide Detector or CO Detector is a device that measures the concentration of carbon monoxide in the air to prevent possible poisoning by this gas. Carbon monoxide gas is odorless, tasteless and is not visible therefore, CO is called "silent killer" and the only way to protect yourself and your family is to install a Carbon Monoxide Detector in your homes, working rooms, garages, etc.

If it comes to the accumulation of carbon monoxide in the room, these detectors will sound an alarm before it comes to a concentration that is lethal to a man, so people have time to ventilate the room or to leave. There are Carbon Monoxide Detectors that automatically call emergency services when it comes to an excessive concentration of CO in the room. Installation of the device is very simple, all you need to do is include it into any outlet on the wall or put batteries in it. Many States of North America brought the Law of the Use of Carbon Monoxide Detectors, which legally must be installed in all new buildings in order to protect the population against poisoning. Detectors are suitable for all rooms in commercial and residential places, the best prevention is to install detectors in several rooms such as living room, bedroom, kitchen, garage, boiler room, etc.

Buy now your Carbon Monoxide Detector because it is the best prevention to protect yourself against toxic effects of Carbon Monoxide.

Carbon Monoxide Detector - Carbon Monoxide Detector
 
 

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