American Std Freedom 90 cycles two or more time before lighting


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Old 11-27-12, 04:58 PM
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American Std Freedom 90 cycles two or more time before lighting

This has been going on for the last two seasons. The induction fan comes on, the first two burners nearest the ingniter lite right away but before the two farthest burners get going the flame sensor kicks it out. This all happens in a matter of about 3 to 5 seconds. It will usually lite and run on the second or third recycle. I forgot to mention that I am using propane as fuel. It seems worse if it sits a while before being run. If it's cold enough to keep it working fairly steady, it seems to light and run almost every time. I have had two hvac companies out here and they cant find anything wrong.
Any thought on this is appreciated,
George
 
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Old 11-27-12, 05:10 PM
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The most common cause of this kind of problem are dirty burners and dirty carryover ports which carry the flame from burner to burner lighting each in turn. They should light so fast you would be hard put to observe the process.

With two HVAC companies inspecting the unit, I would suppose that at least one cleaned the burners. Can you confirm that?

What explanation did they give for the burners not lighting reliably?

When was the most recent service agency out there, and did they address this burner issue or were they out there for another purpose?
 
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Old 11-27-12, 05:30 PM
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Agree, it should cross over and light? Burner alignment issues?

Did they get a pressure gauge across the inlet and outlet side of the gas control?

Remove burners and check for spider webs and all that other cool junk?

The fact that it lights better when it's warm suggests draft issues,maybe gas control opening too fast, and make sure the air from the draft inducer cooling fan isn't blowing down on the burners.

Cracked heat exchanger on burners 3 and 4 blowing air out of the vestibule?

Other than that, it should be peachy lol
 

Last edited by boilernut; 11-27-12 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 11-27-12, 06:13 PM
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They were here for this problem but as luck would have it, it lit up every time. I don't know anything about gas furnaces but one of them did have some sort of gauge connected either to or near the electric gas valve and made what looked like a very minor asjustment. As far as the way it lights up, it is the first burner then each burner in sequence. You can easily see each light up one at a time. It is in no way an instant thing. I don't believe they cleaned anything except to sweep it out a little with a shop vac and clean off the flame sensor.
 
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Old 11-27-12, 06:47 PM
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Boilernut listed additional good causes for burner problems, to which I would add poor or erratic gas pressure, especially with propane as a fuel.


Do you have other gas appliances? If so, what appliances, and have you had occasion to notice erratic operation from any of those, especially from a range where erratic gas pressure would be most easily noticed?
 
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Old 11-27-12, 06:59 PM
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You may need to find someone who is real sharp and tuned in to fix this problem...my guess is it won't be easy.

Over the years I've had to install a few step opening gas controls to fix similar issues with stubborn lighting burners. One had serious alignment issues, one had defective machining in the ribbons. They're not all the same I'm afraid.

Had one LP unit we had to shim the manifold mounting flange with washers to change the angle the orifices sprayed...that was a factory recommended repair.

So you may want to call the factory for any possible service bullitins on this issue.

I revert back to finding someone who is real sharp...ask around.
 
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Old 11-28-12, 02:47 AM
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This furnace is about twelve years old and worked perfect for nine of those years. Each of the last three years it seems a little worse. To be honest with you, I don't think the hvac guys in my area know much more about a furnace than I do. They come in with a shop vac and sweep out the bottom of an already clean furnace, put a drop of oil on the exhaust motor bearing, steel wool off the flame sensor, charge me a hundred bucks and leave. Seems that all they want to do is rip the thing out and install a new furnace. This furnace replaced an oil furnace. I could work on that, but these gas furnaces scare me.
 
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Old 11-28-12, 03:50 AM
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Time to call the factory for a referral, they may call the distributor in your neck of the woods. Most distributors have a factory rep who will call you. I used to be one at one time myself. You wouldn't believe the stuff I ran in to lol

Also, call your LP supplier and tell him what you're up against. They may come out and replace the regulators on their equipment.
 
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Old 11-28-12, 07:14 AM
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You didn't answer my last questions.
 
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Old 11-28-12, 02:58 PM
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Sorry about not getting back to you. I don't have any other gas appliances. Everything else is electric. Can a mechanically inclined do it yourselfer safely remove the burner and clean it himself without much risk of blowing my house up? I have done electronic work on cars at a Ford Dealership for 27 yrs, so I do have some experience with sensitive equipment.
 
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Old 11-28-12, 04:01 PM
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The particular problem you are having is where the burners aren't lighting reliably between the #2 and #3 burners. Take some time to observe the ignition process repeatedly until you can understand what you are seeing. In particular, you are looking for little flames extending from the left and right of the burners called carryover ports which allow the flames to move from burner to burner.

You can look at the way the carryover ports look and work between the #1 and #2 burners.

Sometimes rapping the offending burners moderately with a wrench or something can cause debris blocking those ports to clear itself out. You don't want to beat the crap out of it! Just some moderate pounding and try the ignition process again.

You can try that several times and see if that improves things.

Report back here with what you've found before going any farther.
 
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Old 11-28-12, 06:06 PM
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Thanks. It has been working fairly well today but it's been cold here also. Seems to do better when it has to run quite a bit. I may not have time to mess with it very much until the weekend. If I find out anything I'll let you know.
 
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Old 12-02-12, 03:58 PM
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OK, I removed and cleaned the four burners with a fine brass brush and compressed air. It lit up great twice but then went back to it's old crap again. I did notice that on the fourth start, only the burner closest to the ingiter lit and its flame seemed very weak. Just as it was about to shut down the rest lit. Must be an erratic pressure issue. I need to get someone out here with some gauges and check it out I guess.
 
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Old 12-02-12, 04:02 PM
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If you rent your LP system, you may have them come out and replace the regulators too. Can't hurt
 
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Old 12-02-12, 07:15 PM
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Time for new burners and to have the gas pressure checked by a pro.
 
 

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