Need General Advice On Furnace Install In Large Open Building

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Old 12-17-15, 02:24 AM
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Need General Advice On Furnace Install In Large Open Building

I live in northern Minnesota. I'm changing from a dead propane boiler with air handlers, to a propane furnace with forced air, in a large mostly open shop. The propane dealer will install the furnace. I'm doing the ductwork. I did my home ductwork previously.

“I'm Gettin Old”. Dont work at the shop full time anymore. Cant afford to heat the LARGE SHOP, used only occasionally. I want to leave it at about 40 degrees most of the time. I expect to work only in the SMALL ROOM a day or two per week, but will occasionally need to heat the LARGE SHOP also. Probably only a few times per year, and when it is above 0 degrees 60 degrees would be fine. I expect I could do this by leaving the doors open in the SMALL ROOM, and with another duct to the LARGE SHOP.

The ducts shown are proposed sizes that I happen to have onhand. I have enough 8 x 12, & 2-1/2 x 12 to do what is shown & more. The furnace location is fixed within a few feet, and can't be moved. No need to give me detailed information, mostly I'm just looking for advice on heating the FURNACE & UTILITY ROOM, without wrecking the furnace. I should be able to figger out how to heat the LARGE SHOP also for short periods of time. Some ideas are below. Comment on whatever you like, especially concerns that you may have.

MY CONCERNS ARE:

1) Cycling of the furnace. Particularly any cautions that you may have as to how my ideas will affect the furnace operation. Will the 2 stage furnace shown with the fan on low, heat just the FURNACE & UTILITY ROOM, without problems?

2) Approximate temp to keep the FURNACE & UTILITY ROOM, in order to not harm the furnace.

3) Location of the t-stats. (I thought that I might install t-stats in 2 locations, controlled by a switch, so that in winter, I would just flip the switch, from the FURNACE & UTILITY ROOM t-stat, to the SMALL ROOM t-stat.) With the old boiler system, I had the t-stat about 7-1/2' high, in the LARGE SHOP (12' ceiling with ceiling fans also), and everything worked great.

4) Sizing of ductwork.

I would have shutoffs on any ducts that leave the FURNACE & UTILITY room, in order to enable the FURNACE & UTILITY ROOM t-stat to work properly, and heat only that room.

DESIRED TEMPS, WHEN I AM NOT WORKING AT THE SHOP:
40 Degrees: 128 sf SMALL ROOM
?? Degrees: 240 sf FURNACE & UTILITY ROOM (Temp necessary for proper furnace operation).
40 Degrees: 240 sf TOOL CRIB
40 Degrees: 1024 sf LARGE SHOP

DESIRED TEMPS, WHEN I AM WORKING, USUALLY IN THE SMALL ROOM FOR A DAY OR TWO:
70 Degrees: 128 sf SMALL ROOM
?? Degrees: 240 sf FURNACE & UTILITY ROOM (Temp necessary for proper furnace operation).
40 Degrees: 240 sf TOOL CRIB
60 Degrees: 1024 sf LARGE SHOP

GOODMAN FURNACE (See Attached Jpegs)
GMH80403AN
40000 Btu Gas (propane)
2 stage burner
3 speed fan

SHOP DESIGN / HEAT LOSS (See Attached Jpegs)
Pole barn steel siding, inside & out. R-21 walls, R-30 - R-40 ceilings.
Double entrance doors, No windows.
8' & 12' Ceilings.
Slab on grade, well insulated @ perimeter.

As Grandpa Used To Say,
Thanking You In Advance, For Considerations,

Will

(Sorry about the poor pictures, I'm not good at it)
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Size:  54.4 KBName:  3 Temp Rise.jpg
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  #2  
Old 12-17-15, 03:57 AM
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Just off the top of my head I think you would be making a mistake in trying to heat all areas with a single furnace, even a two-stage unit. Having a low enough output to just heat the utility room and the tool crib would be woefully too small to heat the entire space even on the high output.

The boiler with separate unit heaters is the second best idea, the ideal being a furnace for the two rooms you want to keep warm plus a third for the small room and finally a large unit for the main shop area.

If the two smaller rooms are adequately insulated then electric unit heaters may make sense.
 
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Old 12-17-15, 01:36 PM
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The dealer/installer should do a heat loss analysis of your home and your special concerns to design a suitable heating installation.


In my view, you aren't going to get a good answer here with the kind of questions you have.
 
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Old 12-17-15, 03:45 PM
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SP, I'm a bit offended by your answer, it is almost as if you didn't read the original post.

This is a shop, not a home. He wants the ability to heat the larger shop area on an infrequent basis but to also be able to keep it at a minimum temperature to prevent freezing. Within this larger shop area are three smaller rooms that he wants to heat independently from the larger shop area. The problem is that he wants to do all of this with a single forced air furnace.

Truth is, there are several people on this forum that could work up a plan for him BUT it will be very difficult, if not impossible, to do it with a single furnace, even a two-stage furnace. The problems will be too large furnace most of the time and a too small furnace on the occasions when he wants to heat the larger shop area.


DiyWlm999, here is just one problem. When you want to heat the larger shop do you want it to take 8 to 12 (or more) hours to come up to the 60[SUP]o[/SUP] mark you desire? For fast "pickup" you need a large furnace with a large blower. Truth is, for that size area you probably should have TWO furnaces sized to bring the temperature up in an hour or two at the most. You could then cycle one, or even alternate the two to maintain the temperature. You MIGHT be able to get away with a single furnace for the other three rooms IF you kept all three rooms at about the same temperature and sized the furnace appropriately. The bigger problem here is going to be unequal heat loss from each room and a furnace of sufficient capacity to heat all three rooms will be too large to heat just one room.

Since you already have the hydronic unit heaters installed why not just repair or replace the boiler?
 
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Old 12-18-15, 02:18 PM
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<<SP, I'm a bit offended by your answer, it is almost as if you didn't read the original post.>>


Occasionally we will disagree.

I'm all in favor of helping DIYers with tasks they can reasonably and safely perform on their own.

I also don't hesitate to recommend against DIY work where I think that too complicated or unwise. The question at hand seems to me like we have too little information available to suggest reasonable ways to deal with a relatively complicated situation.

A heating system is often designed to last for decades. Doing the job right is therefore important --- create a poor design and you are likely stuck with it for a long time.

In my opinion, this person should look for a competent person to examine his situation and determine appropriate ways to meets the person's needs.

But of course, if you want to try to answer these questions, help yourself!
 
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Old 12-18-15, 03:53 PM
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Occasionally we will disagree.
Occasionally, but not very often.

The question at hand seems to me like we have too little information available to suggest reasonable ways to deal with a relatively complicated situation.
I agree, which is why I didn't offer any suggestions on how to do it the way that he had proposed.

A heating system is often designed to last for decades. Doing the job right is therefore important --- create a poor design and you are likely stuck with it for a long time.
I absolutely agree with you. Where I disagree is the statement that it couldn't be done over the Internet.

In my opinion, this person should look for a competent person to examine his situation and determine appropriate ways to meets the person's needs.
I figured that was what he was doing by asking here, or at least trying to learn enough to ask intelligent questions when he met with someone face-to-face. That is also why I wrote that a single furnace was not the proper method. Then again, he hasn't returned (yet) so maybe he isn't as interested as I thought.


By the way, if you hold down the left mouse button and run it over the text you wish to quote (highlighting the text) release the button and then left-click on the caption balloon symbol (far right on the tool bar) you can insert the cited text in a quotation balloon. Add a line feed (Enter key) after the [/QUOTE] and then add your comments.
 
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Old 12-20-15, 11:30 AM
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Hi, & Thanks for the answers. I really do appreciate your taking the time.

Although I have read your posts, I do apoligise for not getting back to you. Everything around here has been whacky, I've got serious health issues, and just couldnt get a decent response out. I started a post a little while ago, but will have to let it go till tonight. Thanks again,

Will
 
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Old 12-20-15, 06:59 PM
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Hi Again, I hope someone comes back.

Incidentally, if anything I say below comes across wrong, I sincerely apologize. I do a lot of tongue in cheek stuff, & it may not always be apparent. I am grateful for any help. I know little about heating compared to GOOD HVAC folks.

First;
I actually read a lot of your forum rules, and a number of posts, before leaving my questions.
I'm not new to forums, I spend time on Open Source, Ebay, Mozilla, and a few others.
But I saw a number of criticisms of too little information, in order to help the OP.
So, I included jpegs of the shop plan, the furnace specs, energy calcs, etc.
I also edited out some information from the first draft of my post, as it really didnt seem to matter. On forums I have noticed that the longer the post, the more poorly it is written, and also read by those folks trying to help. (another reason for graphs instead of another 1,000 words).
I probably did a lousy job explaining this, as there seemed to be some confusion about the heating of various rooms. Here goes;

Anyway, the boiler was in the shop for 20 years, it quit 3 years ago. And I made a mistake when I said air “handlerS”. My first un-edited “draft” originally mentioned that a boiler system had been built with valves & basic plumbing for 4 more future zones, to handle both the building shown, and another one, of 3500 sf. That building was built, but never needed to have the heat zones added to it. And that was edited out of the post. There is only one air handler. That pretty much explains why I dont put in another boiler. I also went back to working alone (without employees) 10 years ago, and can easily modify my habits, and “behavior”, relative to weather, etc. (but not necessarily to the various vices in my life)

After the boiler quit, I had a 35M btu “thru the wall” propane heater installed in the FURNACE ROOM. It worked fine as far as heating the building goes. I just used a fan to move air from that room, into the LARGE SHOP when needed, and usually left the tstat at it's lowest setting, which resulted in about 45-50 degrees, out in the LARGE SHOP. When I turned it up, it also heated the LARGE SHOP nicely, up to about 68, even in -0 weather. However, it also quit this year, as water had gotten into the burner, and flooded it. The answer I recieved was “all the bizarre weather we've been having, must have gotten water into the vent”. Ya, right it spilled water onto the floor 6-8 times before flooding the combustion chamber completely. I could go on about this for an hour, but YOU DON'T CARE! Except that 35M BTU did just what I needed it to do. For 3 years, it heated even the LARGE SHOP to 68 degrees.

So it comes down to this. What I call in the drawings the 10'x24' “FURNACE & UTILITY ROOM”, needs to be heated above freezing, due to freezables kept there, and for proper furnace operation. The 10' x 24' “TOOL CRIB” can easily be add to this. The 8' x 16' currently uninsulated “SMALL SHOP” can also be added to this. I expect the “SMALL SHOP” would heat up quickly by just opening a vent, or switching to a different tstat (as I had mentioned). These 3 rooms require little ductwork. Opening their main doors can easily add heat to the “LARGE SHOP” (just enough to make it comfortable for a few days, 5, 6, maybe 8 times per winter. Or ductwork can also be added direct to the LARGE SHOP easily, also.

Cant I just heat these 2-3 rooms, to a proper temp, & open some ducts / dampers / doors on Tuesday, if I want to work in the LARGE SHOP, at maybe 60-68 degrees, on Wed-Fri?, with a 40M BTU dual stage furnace? Without frying the thing?

I am most concerned about the level of ductwork required, for safe, proper furnace operation. I already know 35M will heat it. I dont want to burn a furnace, or endanger my property. 30 years ago, we'd just blow the air into the LARGE SHOP, and let it drift back into the rest of the areas. (When we wanted the whole thing to be heated comfortably (approx 65 degrees). Things are different now.........

Incidentally, I'm tired of bad answers. That's why I'm here (which is a credit to your forum. I actually looked a half a dozen formus, and by reading the postings, picked this one).

A few personal facts. As a General Contractor, I built houses for 25 of my last 50 years. I had them tested, as early as 1986 with a blower door. (1.25 ACH @ 50 Pascals). This shop is tighter than that. (Dont worry, it's handled) R21 walls. R30 Minimum ceilings, closer to R40. Steel walls, full .006 vapor barriers, careful construction, no windows. Infiltration is all but 0. Air is cheap to heat anyway, as I've seen stated in your forum. That's what's wrong with the codes, air is easy, it's those stupid 800 lb table saws, that eat the BTUs when you're trying to change the temp. The energy worksheet I posted shows it needs 32073 BTUs. But I had been tinkering with some of the factors, made another mistake, and the one I posted was off. Actually only need 31343 BTUs, and thats with R30 ceilings instead of R40. (Tough to be accurate about both blowing it in, and settling) Plus the whole West wall is common with a 3500 sf unheated building, but probably saving another 20%+ in energy costs, on that particular wall.

Forgive my delay, Some days are just tough. But I really need some help, cant quit, got entirely too much still left to do, & too much to get sold!!!

Comments, Advice, Criticisms All Welcome. Best Wishes To All!

Will
 
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Old 12-20-15, 07:10 PM
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Wherever I say "SMALL SHOP", in the previous post,

I mean "SMALL ROOM", as is show in the drawing that was uploaded.

Sorry,

Will
 
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Old 12-20-15, 07:35 PM
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"DiyWlm999, here is just one problem. When you want to heat the larger shop do you want it to take 8 to 12 (or more) hours to come up to the 60o mark you desire?"

Furd, No problem, 8-12 hours is great. As I have now said, I can easily modify my behavior, (due to weather). I drive past my shop 2x per day, and can easily stop to change the tstat. I know ahead of time if I am going to work there in the next few days, and what I am going to do there.

I think the main problem is TOO MUCH heat in the FURNACE & UTILITY ROOM & cycling problems. Consequently having to send some heat to the TOOL CRIB, and even to the uninsulated SMALL ROOM, which is where most of my wintertime activity would take place anyway. Look at the heat loss calcs. The FURNACE & UTILITY ROOM has all 4 walls insulated, due to being an addition to the original building. It's not that big.

Also, Electric is basically a problem here, with the cost, if you're not on off-peak, but I'm beginning to think an old fashioned 1500 watt milkhouse or a baseboard heater may be the answer in the FURNACE & UTILITY ROOM, and never even turn the furnace on except to heat the LARGE SHOP.

Will
 
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Old 12-21-15, 08:24 AM
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Hopefully you noticed the "just off the top of my head" disclaimer in my original response. I did not look at your calculations nor did I take into account what you wrote concerning the insulation levels. Because I used to get paid, rather handsomely, to make such calculations I rarely do them now that I am retired. Instead, what I attempt to do is to steer people into the how and why of making their own calculations.

The basic idea of maintaining different temperatures in different rooms with a single furnace is already daunting. To make it work well when the temperature differences are great is even more difficult. I was working under the assumption that you wanted an automatic system that you could then just flip a switch and instantly heat the larger shop area.

Here are some bits of information you need to know. In most two-stage furnaces the first stage is about 60% of the total output. There ARE minimum airflows necessary for operation on both stages, the second stage obviously requiring a greater airflow. Many (most?) manufacturers will also have a minimum temperature for operation, generally in the forties, and all have a minimum and maximum temperature differential across the heat exchanger. You MUST maintain all these minimums or risk serious damage to the heat exchanger. Duct design WILL be important to ensure minimum airflows on both the first and second stage operations.

Since you have stated that the temperatures are not critical when you are not occupying the shop area, plus with the better than average air sealing and insulation, you can use a thermostat with a greater "dead band" to reduce the cycling of the furnace. Again, just off the top of my head I would go for something that would start the furnace when any area dropped below about 45[SUP]o[/SUP] and stop at about 50-55[SUP]o[/SUP]. This would keep you above the minimum operating temperatures, ensure a longer burn time and have a longer off time between cycles. Short cycling is the worst thing you can have a furnace do.

You might also want to add a few air circulation fans in the larger shop area to blow the heated air around to help even out the heat. For me, I would want to heat the larger shop as fast as possible but since you state a longer warm up time is acceptable I'll leave it at that.

Lost of information on the Internet concerning duct design, Google is your friend.
 
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Old 12-21-15, 12:24 PM
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Furd, all good information.

I did notice the top of your head. & thought nothing of it. As I said, I'm only looking for general guidance. Not free design. Trouble is I've seen so much bad work/advice. I'm continually amazed at the time folks like you will spend online, helping others. So I'm just looking for guidance & “point me stuff”. Had a guidance guy that did most of our houses the last few years. He did design only, no bending, knocking, etc, for that firm. Really knew his HVAC. He moved away. Around here, usually, even the owner is bending etc, and most arent really great about the design stuff. I dont mean to knock the trade. They're probably better at their job than a lot of small town general contractors around here. Way too easy to get a GC liscense here, or even get around it.

I also see how you came to your assumptions. And automation is not at all required. In fact, I should get a wifi tstat, but I'm not going to bother with even that. I dont know a lot, but I do know a little about the following, so I can follow what you say:
2 stage - 60%
Minimum airflows & temps
Heat exchanger diffferential
Short cycling
The above are the very things that worry me.

However I did not know about tstats, with a with a greater "dead band"

So, if you can just give me one more piece of advice, before I go off on to the ductwork. You made me think, and a few dim bulbs came on............ I may have been exactly backwards about this. I was focused on the SMALL ROOM, simply because I would be there more often. Instead, in order to keep it simple:

Thermostat out in the LARGE SHOP. (wider dead band?)

Simple ducts to allow the LARGE SHOP, to always be heated to 40-45 degrees, lowest I can safely get away with. (There has been no heat out there since last spring. Temps here for the last few weeks have been fairly warm. Varying from 40 down to 9 degrees. Most days in the last week, have been 20-25 degrees. Temp in shop this morning is still 38 degrees. Of course, at -30 things will be different, but what will probably happen, is I wont go there at all, until it's above 0. But the tstat will still be at 40-45. Any problems with that?

I could open a manual duct/damper, into the SMALL ROOM, when I'm there. It would heat up before I got the coffee done. If the heat didnt happen to be running, I'd just bump the tstat up. Also, I can easily tough out 10-15 minutes in the SMALL ROOM, got lots to read. I didnt mention it, but the ceiling, which is only 8' will be insulated, the walls are tough to do.

3 ceiling fans are in place in the LARGE SHOP. I saw someone say the blades should be set to bring air UP? ?????? Is that right?

I also have 2 good blowers in plenums, from old furnace/airhandler installations. Would they be better than ceiling fans? Seems like even one might move too much air.

Does this make any sense? I don't really know how much I'll be there, and maybe I hardly ever heat up the LARGE SHOP, and maybe it even costs me more BTUs, because I go the the SMALL ROOM, all the time. That would be fine, if it made this simpler. I DO NOT want this to be complicated if I can avoid it.

Also, forget any issues with the freezables. They are few, and can easily be dealt with.

Thanks Again for the help

Will

PS I assume I need return air ducts, not just open space to return air to the furnace room.
 
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Old 12-21-15, 09:48 PM
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Thermostat out in the LARGE SHOP. (wider dead band?)
Yes.

Simple ducts to allow the LARGE SHOP, to always be heated to 40-45 degrees, lowest I can safely get away with.
Yes.

But the tstat will still be at 40-45. Any problems with that?
Should not be any problems, but no guarantees from me.
I could open a manual duct/damper, into the SMALL ROOM, when I'm there. It would heat up before I got the coffee done. If the heat didnt happen to be running, I'd just bump the tstat up.
I would suggest a limiting thermostat in the small room. This would control an automatic damper in the duct to the small room and be set to close the duct when the temperature in the small room rose to the set point. Since the amount of air entering the room over a period of time is what raises the temperature (assuming the incoming air temperature is adequate) you can have different temperatures between the large and small shop areas. This concept is a bit hard to understand at first but think of it like this.

Your furnace will be outputting heated air at least 40 degrees higher than the return, or at least 80 degrees. If you duct a sufficient quantity (CFM) of that 80 degree air into the smaller room you WILL raise the temperature in that room to whatever the thermostat is set for and then close the damper, curtailing the airflow into the smaller room. It won't be perfect control, obviously it will only heat while the furnace is actually firing but it sounds to me like that will be sufficient for your needs. Worst case is that you might under some circumstances need a bit of supplemental heat and for that the baseboard or milkhouse electric heater idea is a good one. This same concept can be used for the tool room as well.

3 ceiling fans are in place in the LARGE SHOP. I saw someone say the blades should be set to bring air UP? ?????? Is that right?
The fans should run in the manner that gives the most comfort. That may be "air up" in the center and "down" along the walls or it may be just the reverse. It depends on how fast the air is moving whether or not it is better or worse in one direction or the other. Try both directions and use whichever works best for YOU and forget any silly rules.

I also have 2 good blowers in plenums, from old furnace/airhandler installations. Would they be better than ceiling fans? Seems like even one might move too much air.
Are these installed already or are you saying that you have the blowers available to install? Using them with a horizontal discharge, especially if the inlet is nearer to the ceiling may help considerably at moving the air in a more circular path rather than the up/down from the ceiling fans. Most blowers have multi-speed motors and you could experiment with the speed to lessen any problems of major drafts.

The biggest problem will be in duct design. You will need to design the ducts to the smaller rooms to allow the necessary airflow into those rooms as determined by a combination of calculations from Manual J and Manual D of the ASHRAE manuals. The main duct from the furnace will need to be designed to the minimum allowable static pressure for the furnace outlet. Unfortunately, I haven't done duct design for almost forty years and I long ago gave away all my books on the subject. I know that there are good resources on the Internet but again it is unfortunate that I don't have anything readily available to offer. I can probably help with suggestions for the limiting thermostat and damper.
 
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Old 12-22-15, 10:59 AM
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Furd,

Yes, I follow the damper in the small room. I like that.

The blowers & housings are not installed, one was hooked up 3 yrs ago, to the boiler system. The ceiling fans all push down. We used them for cooling during the summer, on a low-medium speed (unless it was really hot outside). They are irritating in the winter, due to wind chill effect, so only ever on low. I think I'll reverse the ones at the ends of the building, to draw up, and leave the center one pushing down, for now. I still work underneath that one, in the summer sometimes. I'm gonna think on the blower & ductwork issue for a while, although I like it a lot, and it wouldn't be difficult. (They are 3 speed) It also adds the opportunity for more air filtration. I'll run with the ceiling fans this winter, and see how it works out.

I take it you need some input on what the ductwork ends up as, before any comments on the tstat & damper, so I'll have to get back to you on that.

This has helped enormously, I think I'm out of questions.

Again, Thanks So Much,

Will
 
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Old 12-22-15, 03:50 PM
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You're quite welcome.

You will need to use a round duct, size to be determined via the Manual J and Manual D calculations, into the smaller room and then add a motorized damper. They are readily available for about $60 to $80 dollars depending on size. A normally open damper connected to a cooling thermostat (yes, cooling as you want to energize the damper motor on a rise in temperature) will close the damper when the room temperature rises to the set point. This thermostat will only control the damper and have no effect upon the furnace itself.
 
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