Carrier 58MTB060 blower motor making noise

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Old 01-02-16, 01:20 PM
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Carrier 58MTB060 blower motor making noise

Our supercharger/turbocharger-engineer neighbor has a 9-yr-old Carrier 58MTB060 and he tells me that the circulator motor is making noise. He thinks a motor bearing may have failed. I haven't seen it yet, so I don't know that for sure, but I determined that the motor is a HC41AE118, which I believe is also equivalent to a GE 5KCP39GGU011S.

I believe that his unit is beyond the warranty period for non-heat-exchanger parts. If so, I will help him troubleshoot and repair/replace whatever is necessary.

I have one simple, preliminary question. Can the bearings be replaced in these motors, or do you have to buy a complete new assembly?

Thanks.

BTW, the last time I made a post in the furnace forum was back in Sept '14 after I completed the installation in our home of two of the smallest Goodman HE furnaces, as described in this thread:
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ga...-our-home.html
I'll take this opportunity to give an update to our new heating system. In short, the basement furnace has never had to run and the temperature in the basement has never gone below 64F, even in very cold weather.

Therefore, the main-level furnace's uninsulated ductwork must radiate enough heat into the basement to keep the basement at no lower than 64F. Amazing. As I more than strongly suspected, we did not need to install a furnace to replace the old basement furnace.

The entire main level, except a small area very close to a huge bay window in our living room, remains at a constant 70F, plus or minus less than the display resolution of the thermostat. In other words, both the set-point temperature and the room temperature indicated on the thermostat's display are always exactly the same, unless the set-point is changed, of course. In the latter case, the room temperature will slowly meet the set-point and then never change. My wife and I cannot sense any change in room temperature at any time. Amazing.

I only heard the main-level furnace kick into high stage maybe 5 times last winter and so far this warmer winter, not even once.

Our gas bill is slightly less than what it was using only our Rinnai heater to heat the entire house, but the entire house, including the basement, is now far more comfortable that it was using only the Rinnai.

Again, installing a basement furnace was a waste of money, but I like having the second furnace there as a possible emergency source of parts (both furnaces are identical) for the first. In the long haul, if we are still living in this house for many years -- enough years to reach the main-level furnace's life expectancy -- the basement furnace will still be in brand new condition and can be moved over to replace the main level furnace. I just hope I'm still physically capable of doing (or even alive to do) the job myself.
 
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Old 01-02-16, 02:20 PM
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To answer your main question, if you live near a large city, check for electric motor rebuilders. They may be able to replace the bearings. Otherwise, you are going to have to do a search to see if the bearings are available and may have to settle for a new motor.
 
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Old 01-02-16, 02:56 PM
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In my view, unless your neighbors have special skills in rebuilding the motor. they should buy a new replacement.
 
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Old 01-03-16, 08:51 AM
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Thanks, guys.

Is replacing the bearings in the aforementioned 1/3hp models any more difficult or easier than that shown for a physically-larger motor on the following link?
Simple Centrifuge ...putting a centrifuge in every garage!
If not, to me things look DIY friendly. And if one does screw it up, THEN buy the new motor.

I assume that if one is going to attempt to replace the bearings that that should be done before the rotor starts rubbing on the stator and damaging the motor's windings.

(My neighbor has a two-furnace system -- a larger furnace for the basement and main level and a smaller furnace -- the one in question -- just for the second floor. At night he normally turns down the set-point on his larger furnace. Should the second-floor furnace be out of service, he can raise the set-point on the larger furnace for the length of time it takes to get the smaller unit up and running, so it is not necessary to get the smaller furnace back in service ASAP. A bit of farting-around time is allowed.)
 
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Old 01-06-16, 07:38 PM
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I finally saw/heard the furnace in operation and I believe the noise is coming from the inducer fan. I do not believe that it is the motor.

As the fan first starts up, it makes no noise, but when a certain speed is quickly reached, the fan starts to make a rattling, scraping noise. More rattling than scraping.

After a bit of time the hot wire igniter lights up, then, after a few more seconds, the gas flow starts and the flame comes on.

Only a few seconds after the flame comes on, the inducer fan noise completely disappears and the motor and fan run very quietly.

I read the operator's manual and I believe that after the flame starts and is confirmed to be on, the inducer fan speed drops to a lower speed. Apparently the fan "likes" operating at the lower speed, becomes more stable and you'd never know there is a problem.

Anybody else experienced this behavior and, if so, what is the problem and what is the likely fix -- to replace the inducer fan impeller?

Thanks for any suggestions.
 
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Old 01-06-16, 08:20 PM
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As far as I can tell, the following video shows the inducer that is in the furnace I looked at tonight. If it's not identical, it's very close to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fWRsGrQVM

As you can see, the video shows how to replace the entire inducer assembly, but because the old motor works just fine, I'd like to take the assembly apart and just replace whatever is worn. Is this possible?

Thanks again.
 
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Old 01-06-16, 08:28 PM
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Taking the draft inducer apart isn't hard to do but there are gaskets that may break and parts that may not come apart.

Name:  326058-756.jpg
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I show HC27CB121 as the inducer part number and 326058-755 as the new replacement.
That inducer does feature a two speed motor. I don't normally rebuild the inducer...I replace the entire assembly.

The factory Carrier part is very expensive.

In the following link.... Repair Clinic shows a replacement blower wheel for that inducer.
Carrier Furnace Model 58MTB060-F-10112 (58MTB060F10112) Parts from Repair Clinic
 
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Old 01-06-16, 09:05 PM
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Thanks, PJmax!

It must be this one:
Carrier Furnace Draft Inducer Blower Wheel 322592-701 Order now for same day shipping. 365 day return policy. RepairClinic.com

There is a similar Carrier inducer assembly (but with a different motore) being disassembled here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s684fW4RQvc
The fan is exposed at about 5:00 into the video, and at 6:30 into the video he states that the part number is "322592-701", which is the part you pointed out. Amazing Youtube.

After seeing that video, I believe that the shaft of the motor may be spinning inside the impeller at high speed (high air resistance) and not slipping at lower speed (lower resistance). I'll have to take the assembly apart to see what's what.

I'm sure my neighbor would rather buy the impeller than the entire assembly. Yes, that assembly sure is expensive.

I'll post again when I know what's what. If the shaft is indeed slipping, maybe I can do something to prevent that from happening.

Thanks again, PJmax.
 
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Old 01-06-16, 09:50 PM
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The wheel looks to be high heat plastic. It may have cracked. Usually they are metal and are held on with a setscrew in a collar.
 
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Old 01-07-16, 01:06 PM
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Buy the inducer assembly. You will get all new parts and gaskets and you wont have to try to get the old fan off the motor shaft. Usually that's corroded on by the acidic combustion gasses and often impossible to get off.
 
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Old 01-07-16, 01:49 PM
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Seattle, for Canadians ordering from the states, after converting USD to CAD, the price of the assembly is going to be around $675 CAD and that does not include import duty or brokerage fees that the shipper is going to charge.

Ordering from a Canadian retailer is apparently even worse:
Genuine Carrier 326058-755 Inducer Motor Assenmbly Complete 324906-762

$800 including shipping.

If my neighbor were to pay a furnace company to come to his house to give him an estimate for repair, I believe there's a good chance that he would be told to buy a new furnace rather than spend the astronomical amount that they're likely going to quote for repair.

Ordering from the states, the blower wheel by itself is going to be about $92 CAD, plus brokerage, which won't add too much.

In short, I think it's worth the effort to determine exactly what's wrong with the old unit and to fix it. After all, the only moving parts on the unit are the motor and blower wheel and I believe that they both can be purchased separately. (The motor I'm not yet certain of.) Even buying both, the total price will probably be less than half of the new assembly and the resulting assembly will be equivalent to a new assembly.

Here's a previous eBay listing for a rebuilt unit (toward the bottom of the page):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Remanufactur...p2047675.l2557

So they definitely can be re-built.

Thanks
 
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Old 01-08-16, 09:44 AM
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I've arranged with my neighbor to dis-assemble the inducer on Saturday.

What I think is going to make this job a bit easier is that I think the front part of the two-part plastic shell can be removed/separated by simply removing 5 or six screws around the front edge of the front part. Between the two parts of the shell there appears to be a white gasket, which I will cut through using a utility knife.

Then the front half of the shell, together with the attached motor and impeller behind it, should pull right off. Then I can determine what part is faulty. The rear half of the assembly, which is affixed to the triangular opening of the secondary heat exchanger as well as the exhaust pipe, will remain securely in place

After deciding whether to replace the entire assembly or only the impeller (neither of which we'll have at hand at the time of diagnosis), to reassemble, I'll apply some of this stuff between the two halves of the shell.
Permatex 2-Form A Gasket Sealant, 80mL | Canadian Tire

If we have to replace the assembly, we can have that part in a day or two. If we have to order an impeller, that could possibly take up to two weeks. As I said before, my neighbor has a two-furnace system -- a larger furnace for the basement and main level and a smaller furnace -- the one in question -- just for the second floor.

At night he normally turns down the set-point on his larger furnace. While the second-floor furnace is out of service, he can raise the set-point on the larger furnace for the length of time the other is out of service, so it is not necessary to get the smaller furnace back in service ASAP.

But now we're entering the coldest period of our winter, and my neighbor has moved a mattress from his second-floor bedroom down into his first floor living room. So I've been getting a bit imaginative about how to get more of the larger furnace's heat into the second floor without making drastic changes to ductwork, and I've come up with an idea.

The two furnaces sit side-by-side in a fairly small area of a pretty small furnace/laundry room. The doors to the furnace room always remain open, as does the door into the basement and all the doors upstairs and downstairs, so there is free air flow all over the house. More specifically, the distribution and return air systems are not rigorously confined.

Both furnaces' exhaust plenums already have access ports cut into them for cleaning and these holes are covered by simple, flat sheet-metal covers which are affixed by four sheet-metal screws -- one at each corner of each cover.

Therefore,

1. Remove three screws in the cleaning cover on the larger furnace and rotate the cover as desired on the single remaining screw, exposing an infinitely-variable portion the round hole beneath it.

2. Turn down the set-point on the second-floor furnace to as low as it will go and turn off its gas supply. Set the thermostat to "fan on" mode. The circulating fan of the second-floor furnace will now run constantly.

3. Remove the lower door on the second-floor furnace and tape/clamp down the safety switch.

4. When the first-floor thermostat demands heat, filtered, heated air will pour out of its cleaning-hole into the small furnace room. It's going to get hot in that room PDQ. The second-floor furnace's circulating-air blower is going to suck in the hot air from the furnace room and distribute it into the second floor.

5. Adjust the thermostat for the main floor furnace, as well as the size of the opening on its exhaust plenum, to give the best temperature throughout the house.

What do you think of my idea?

Should be interesting on Saturday.

Thanks.
 
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Old 01-08-16, 10:47 AM
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For the heck of it, I just got a quote for a new assembly from a one-man, independent furnace repair business. He contacted the local Carrier distributor for a price. $940, and this is without installation, of course.
 
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Old 01-09-16, 11:43 AM
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This morning I went over to my neighbor's place. In short, we disconnected maybe three hoses; removed the six screws from around the periphery of the front half of the assembly; pulled the front half right off the gasket and the back half of the assembly remained firmly in place.

It was not necessary to disconnect a single electrical connection.

Then we merely turned the front of the assembly around and removed the impeller. The impeller's set screw turned right out very easily and the impeller instantly, effortlessly slipped right off. There was no corrosion or buildup whatsoever.

The above surprisingly simple process took a total of maybe five minutes.

First we checked motor-shaft play and it was acceptable, so the motor is fine. I'd like to take this opportunity to replace the bearings anyway, but my neighbor is reluctant.

Then we examined the impeller. The hub of the impeller consists of the metal sleeve which penetrates all the way from one end of the impeller's hub and protrudes perhaps 3/4" from the inner end of the hub that is still inside the intake-side of the impeller itself, but faces the opening in the other half of the assembly.

The problem with this design is that the plastic impeller and its integral hub is molded around that central metal sleeve. In the inside facing the furnace, the plastic part of the hub "rides up" the metal sleeve perhaps 0.5 - 0.75" and is the same OD of the metal sleeve. IMO, the plastic that rides up should be much larger OD and the other plastic in that area should be beefed up or a different plastic compound should be used.


In that area there were three significant cracks that penetrated all the way up to the metal end of the hub, as well as all the way through the impeller to the side of the impeller that has the nut-shaped end of the metal sleeve. These cracks "fanned out" from the metal perhaps 1-1/2" and could be felt by sliding a fingernail over them. I could open up the cracks a bit by attempting to move the metal sleeve while holding stable the plastic part of the impeller. The is no doubt that these cracks will increase in size/length and the impeller will fail catastrophically during operation. In short, this part should have been made entirely of metal.


Because we are supposed to have some very cold weather over the next few nights, my neighbor actually wanted to re-install the cracked impeller and run the furnace, but, in the end, I convinced him not to. I understand that if the impeller breaks apart during high speed operation, the flying parts can irreparably damage the large plastic parts of the assembly and, in that case, the entire assembly would have to be replaced, again, at considerable cost.

So we have to acquire a new impeller. My neighbor is calling various Carrier dealers to determine if they have one in stock and, if they do, if they will sell it to a DIY person. Should any dealers have one in stock, there are ways to work around acquiring it.

To reinforce the new hub, I'm considering installing a stainless-steel hose clamp around the inner plastic hub, where it rides up the metal sleeve. Any thoughts on this?

Again, this is a very simple job that even a novice DIY'r can accomplish. By so doing, he/she will save a substantial amount of money.

Thanks
 
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Old 01-09-16, 11:49 AM
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BTW, I tried to do the method I described above to get some heat up to the second floor, but apparently my neighbor has only two wires going to each thermostat. When the thermostat is set to "Fan on", the fan does not come on. There is nothing in the furnace manual about this, buy I may be wrong.

AFAI can tell, there is no switch inside the furnace to turn the fan on. Anyone know an internal way to turn on the circulator fan in this model furnace?

Thanks.
 
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Old 01-11-16, 04:32 PM
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Yesterday I found a local supplier for a new OEM blower wheel and today my neighbor and I drove maybe 8 miles to buy it. We paid an amount slightly less than if we ordered it from the states.

After we returned, we had the new wheel installed, tested and gasketed into place in about an hour. In short, the furnace now works perfectly and my neighbors are very grateful to me for a job well done. I feel great.
 
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Old 01-12-16, 01:03 PM
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Congratulations!

<<Then we merely turned the front of the assembly around and removed the impeller. The impeller's set screw turned right out very easily and the impeller instantly, effortlessly slipped right off. There was no corrosion or buildup whatsoever.

The above surprisingly simple process took a total of maybe five minutes.

First we checked motor-shaft play and it was acceptable, so the motor is fine. I'd like to take this opportunity to replace the bearings anyway, but my neighbor is reluctant.>>


Glad getting the fan off wasn't a problem. On many furnaces, it's so corroded on it's scarcely worth screwing around with.


Personally, I wouldn't screw with the motor unless you have experience and expetise rebuilding electric motors.
 
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Old 01-12-16, 02:27 PM
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Thanks, SP.

When I went to pick up the wheel, I brought along the outer plastic part of the assembly with the motor still attached to it.

I did this because the person from whom we bought the wheel was an experienced independent furnace tradesman who had replaced and re-built many of these assemblies and I wanted him to assess the condition of the bearings on the motor. In short, he said that the "play" in the bearings was perfectly normal. After hearing this, I instantly dropped any notion of replacing the motor's bearings.

I will add that I have not been able to find either the A.O. Smith motor that is on the OEM assembly, or a suitable, similarly spec'd, 2-speed motor to replace it. When you do a search for the model number JE1D016N, or HC27CB121, the only results of the search are for the entire assembly, not just the motor. Because of this, I believe that Smith may supply the entire assembly to Carrier and Carrier just sticks its own part number on it.

The person from whom we bought the wheel had a Fasco motor that had an identical mounting bracket/hardware, but it was single speed only.

If anyone knows of a motor equivalent to the A. O. Smith motor and its mounting hardware, I 'd like to know what it is for future reference.



Thanks
 
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