air fuel ratio
#81
01-21-19, 01:41 PM
so this would be easier then an exhaust fan, but Im not sure how to attach this strongly. I need 200 mph resistant.
Also if it does blow off then water can enter. What is done to prevent water getting into chamber if there is a flue breach?
and -0.02" is the min according to my label, but the paperwork they sent one section says "-0.025 and -0.035" and below that it says "-0.025 minimum" which means that -0.02" is in spec.
Also if it does blow off then water can enter. What is done to prevent water getting into chamber if there is a flue breach?
and -0.02" is the min according to my label, but the paperwork they sent one section says "-0.025 and -0.035" and below that it says "-0.025 minimum" which means that -0.02" is in spec.
#82
01-21-19, 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by spott
This is the sight that I previously posted but with different info. If you look at your table of contents at the venting section, pages 5 and mainly 6 on chimney venting.
If you look to the top right of the sight it will give you other options for info to check.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/25...ier-58cma.html
If you look to the top right of the sight it will give you other options for info to check.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/25...ier-58cma.html
this unit was installed wrong. Both mine does not comply:
"In cases where return-air grille is located close to fan inlet,
there should be at least one 90° air turn between fan inlet and
grille. "
"When a single air grille is used, duct between grille and
furnace must be the same size as return opening in furnace."
Also "The barometric draft control shipped with furnace MUST be used
with furnace to ensure proper operation. Instructions for installing
control are packed with control" I saw this in the papers that carrier sent me, but they would not provide me with the info so i could purchase one of these.
#84
01-21-19, 03:52 PM
My guess is you have an older furnace that they don't make anymore. I can only find series 130.
As far as the supply and return duct installation goes the company does recommend but other options work depend on house layout and good common sense trained installers. There are good practices that should be followed.
Your exhaust is the real concern here though. Although sometimes it could look out of place because of your surroundings of high trees or tall surrounding homes effecting draft conditions the pipe has to be brought up high enough to get the proper draft. As far as the damper goes, furnace and boiler co. usually supply one with the unit but they are extremely cheaply made and personally I do not use them. I supply a better quality one. I only mention this because if you don't have the one they state it's fine, they all do the same thing, Some are just very poorly made but as long as you have one.
What you have is an improvement but only a draft gauge and how it effects the furnace will tell the story. You have a special situation there with the weather conditions.
They make chimney caps for the top and brackets to fasten the pipe to the house. Each section must have 3 screws to fasten it to the other.
The section that comes through the wall or any flammable surface should be double wall to protect the house from the heat in the pipe. Although your pipe will work they do make stainless steel chimney kits and sturdy brackets for outdoor installations. Something for you to check is what they require for code in your area and what they recommend for materials.
All states have different codes. It might pay for you to look for another service company that cares more about the quality of work they deliver.
Running that furnace without a draft causes the CO2 to stay in the home instead of being exhausted to the atmosphere . It can kill you. Shame on them for never checking the pipe. In Florida it might not be as big a problem as in New England but it still can be dangerous.
You wouldn't run your car inside a closed home. Same thing.
As far as the supply and return duct installation goes the company does recommend but other options work depend on house layout and good common sense trained installers. There are good practices that should be followed.
Your exhaust is the real concern here though. Although sometimes it could look out of place because of your surroundings of high trees or tall surrounding homes effecting draft conditions the pipe has to be brought up high enough to get the proper draft. As far as the damper goes, furnace and boiler co. usually supply one with the unit but they are extremely cheaply made and personally I do not use them. I supply a better quality one. I only mention this because if you don't have the one they state it's fine, they all do the same thing, Some are just very poorly made but as long as you have one.
What you have is an improvement but only a draft gauge and how it effects the furnace will tell the story. You have a special situation there with the weather conditions.
They make chimney caps for the top and brackets to fasten the pipe to the house. Each section must have 3 screws to fasten it to the other.
The section that comes through the wall or any flammable surface should be double wall to protect the house from the heat in the pipe. Although your pipe will work they do make stainless steel chimney kits and sturdy brackets for outdoor installations. Something for you to check is what they require for code in your area and what they recommend for materials.
All states have different codes. It might pay for you to look for another service company that cares more about the quality of work they deliver.
Running that furnace without a draft causes the CO2 to stay in the home instead of being exhausted to the atmosphere . It can kill you. Shame on them for never checking the pipe. In Florida it might not be as big a problem as in New England but it still can be dangerous.
You wouldn't run your car inside a closed home. Same thing.
#85
01-21-19, 04:24 PM
I asked carrier and I hope they answer about the PSI and nozzle sizes. Looking carefully in my papers that i got from carrier last year I see both PSI and nozzle sizes listed on different documents with the same revision date. hmmmm
Their papers say only use their supplied Barometric damper, but they were no help, so I bought another one last year.
My manometer gave me the draft numbers. Last year looking at new and used units for sale, most were not very accurate. Those digital units were less accurate then many of the dial ones. Looking at manufacturer specs they had accuracies like +/-0.05! Really, what is the good measuring 0.02 if it can be off by +/-0.05?
The unit I found on ebay or amazon well used kinda beat up and totally clogged, but it's a fluid unit, so as long as it's level and the fluid is fresh, it's 100% accurate. It's 880$ new and i got it for 48 and had to clean it out, replace fluid, orings and shut off valves. All together less then 100$ plus my time. its sweet.
All my pipes are three screwed. Well, except for those last two i just stuck up there today for the test. I took those back down for the night in case it rains.
I cut a 12" dia. hole in the gable wall and made a thimble to support the 5" dia. pipe thru wall.
i read all the codes last year and still have my notes. That is how I knew that the 2nd 2" pipe was within height code.
i know if I do this extra 4' of pipe I need a chimney cap, still I need to consider this pipe sticking up so high might get knocked and broke off by flying debris in a wind storm. That would result in a flooded furnace chamber.
Well, with the extra 4' pipe the flue draft is in spec or close enough. Now the over fire draft spec of max +0.02 must mean that there is no minimum, so im ok? Especially since my unit label does not spec this at all.
paul
Their papers say only use their supplied Barometric damper, but they were no help, so I bought another one last year.
My manometer gave me the draft numbers. Last year looking at new and used units for sale, most were not very accurate. Those digital units were less accurate then many of the dial ones. Looking at manufacturer specs they had accuracies like +/-0.05! Really, what is the good measuring 0.02 if it can be off by +/-0.05?
The unit I found on ebay or amazon well used kinda beat up and totally clogged, but it's a fluid unit, so as long as it's level and the fluid is fresh, it's 100% accurate. It's 880$ new and i got it for 48 and had to clean it out, replace fluid, orings and shut off valves. All together less then 100$ plus my time. its sweet.
All my pipes are three screwed. Well, except for those last two i just stuck up there today for the test. I took those back down for the night in case it rains.
I cut a 12" dia. hole in the gable wall and made a thimble to support the 5" dia. pipe thru wall.
i read all the codes last year and still have my notes. That is how I knew that the 2nd 2" pipe was within height code.
i know if I do this extra 4' of pipe I need a chimney cap, still I need to consider this pipe sticking up so high might get knocked and broke off by flying debris in a wind storm. That would result in a flooded furnace chamber.
Well, with the extra 4' pipe the flue draft is in spec or close enough. Now the over fire draft spec of max +0.02 must mean that there is no minimum, so im ok? Especially since my unit label does not spec this at all.
paul
#86
01-21-19, 04:57 PM
Paul,
These are options for draft gauges if looking. Very reliable, no fluids.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...=draft+testers
As far as specs go it can be difficult to get answers because although Carrier makes the furnace, Beckett made the burner. In a lab the test different options and come up with the best efficient combo but that doesn't mean that Carrier will have or even want to deal spec problems of burners.
Nowadays you can pick whatever burner you want to use in an appliance. You usually have a choice of Beckett, Carlin or Riello. My point is with a problem like your, who do you call. That's why a good qualified tech is so important.
These are options for draft gauges if looking. Very reliable, no fluids.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...=draft+testers
As far as specs go it can be difficult to get answers because although Carrier makes the furnace, Beckett made the burner. In a lab the test different options and come up with the best efficient combo but that doesn't mean that Carrier will have or even want to deal spec problems of burners.
Nowadays you can pick whatever burner you want to use in an appliance. You usually have a choice of Beckett, Carlin or Riello. My point is with a problem like your, who do you call. That's why a good qualified tech is so important.
#87
01-23-19, 02:16 PM
Starting page 25 under "side wall venting" How would you drop the gross stack temperature to 300-350°F?
https://www.beckettcorp.com/wp-conte...to-Oilheat.pdf
https://www.beckettcorp.com/wp-conte...to-Oilheat.pdf
#89
01-23-19, 03:51 PM
You don't do anything different. They're saying that is the result of the power venter and the way it works. It explains in the article.
I've only used the Bachrach and have no experience with others.
I've only used the Bachrach and have no experience with others.
#91
01-23-19, 05:48 PM
? Never thought that much about it. Just another way of venting if you don't want a chimney. Personally, for what it's worth, not a big fan of them. Cheaper way for people building houses to save on chimney.
Remember, if it stops working you have no heat. That starts the circuit.
Remember, if it stops working you have no heat. That starts the circuit.
#93
01-30-19, 02:59 AM
I am not going to muddy the water with my answers since @Spott has this under control. My only comment is that I have never seen an oil appliance vented out the side of a structure with what looks like single wall pipe. You mentioned "B vent all the way". B vent is not supposed to be used on an oil appliance. Since I do not know where the furnace is located in your house, I can't specify as to how to vent the appliance, but you may be well served by the installation of the correct class "A" venting system. my 2 cents
#94
01-30-19, 07:03 AM
I never mentioned "B vent". I have reasons why I chose the vent material that I did. That is not the topic of this thread.
for what it is worth many of Spott's comments were helpful, but a few I think he completely mis understood my post. Fluid manometers are the most accurate you can buy, if they were made properly and used properly. They are 100% accurate and dont need to be calibrated. I bought, reconditioned and am using one now.
Im not asking carrier to deal with a problem burner, I just what the factory specs for my unit.
FYI my furnace is in the garage and never used at night. The flue angles up and goes out the garage wall gable end. The previous flue angled up and went out the roof as a chimney. When i had the old oil furnace replaced in 2001 the licensed installer who is still in business today left the old 7' dia single wall galvanized pipe w/chimney and old barometric damper with no hole to check the draft and used a 5" to 7" pipe dia increaser to hook the new furnace to the old flue right below the barometric damper. He did not use the barometric damper supplied by carrier. Using single wall galvanized pipe was not to code back then. I chose not to mention all this because its likely to change the course of this thread.
When i removed the old pipe and installed new out the wall, I knew I might have a draft problem, but decided that i will deal with it then. That is why i spent months reading up on and shopping for a manometer. This is how I learned that most units including the digital units that many pros use, read +/-0.07, +/-0.05, +/-0.11. Im still at a loss to understand the value of a reading of -0.02 of it could be +/-0.07 which means that the real draft could be anywhere from +0.05 to -0.09WC.
im not changing the flue pipe material or location. I might in the end put 4' vertical and chimney cap on it, but feel that a draft inducer would be a better idea.
see images below.
for what it is worth many of Spott's comments were helpful, but a few I think he completely mis understood my post. Fluid manometers are the most accurate you can buy, if they were made properly and used properly. They are 100% accurate and dont need to be calibrated. I bought, reconditioned and am using one now.
Im not asking carrier to deal with a problem burner, I just what the factory specs for my unit.
FYI my furnace is in the garage and never used at night. The flue angles up and goes out the garage wall gable end. The previous flue angled up and went out the roof as a chimney. When i had the old oil furnace replaced in 2001 the licensed installer who is still in business today left the old 7' dia single wall galvanized pipe w/chimney and old barometric damper with no hole to check the draft and used a 5" to 7" pipe dia increaser to hook the new furnace to the old flue right below the barometric damper. He did not use the barometric damper supplied by carrier. Using single wall galvanized pipe was not to code back then. I chose not to mention all this because its likely to change the course of this thread.
When i removed the old pipe and installed new out the wall, I knew I might have a draft problem, but decided that i will deal with it then. That is why i spent months reading up on and shopping for a manometer. This is how I learned that most units including the digital units that many pros use, read +/-0.07, +/-0.05, +/-0.11. Im still at a loss to understand the value of a reading of -0.02 of it could be +/-0.07 which means that the real draft could be anywhere from +0.05 to -0.09WC.
im not changing the flue pipe material or location. I might in the end put 4' vertical and chimney cap on it, but feel that a draft inducer would be a better idea.
see images below.
#95
01-30-19, 11:14 AM
P,
This sight I think will give you more info instead of going back and forth. Apparently you feel I'm missing something so maybe this info will help.
As I said before that furnace as it stands is made to vent into some kind of chimney or a power venting system. Whatever you choose the bottom line is you need a certain amount of draft for it to operate properly.
I don't know why the manometer came up but since it has I've used manometers on gas units and piping for testing pressures which I believe they were made for. We're not interested in pressures here but draft and I may be wrong but I think that's why you are getting positive (+.05) rather than the negative reading (-.05) you are looking for. You are looking for negative readings because you want the draft to suck upwards but I think the article can explain it better.
Something that you just mentioned is the newer furnace having 5" pipe and going into 7". It still doesn't make your installation text book but if you were to go 5" all the way you may be able to create a better draft with a smaller diameter pipe to heat before it pulls a draft. That 5-7" might be to much pipe for that furnace to heat up, creating wild draft. That furnace might not produce enough exhaust heat to heat up the pipe.
Just a suggestion.
If you google manometers vs draft gauges you may find the difference in what they do but if you have that measures draft that's great but there is a difference between pressure and draft.
https://inspectapedia.com/heat/Chimn...easurement.php
This sight I think will give you more info instead of going back and forth. Apparently you feel I'm missing something so maybe this info will help.
As I said before that furnace as it stands is made to vent into some kind of chimney or a power venting system. Whatever you choose the bottom line is you need a certain amount of draft for it to operate properly.
I don't know why the manometer came up but since it has I've used manometers on gas units and piping for testing pressures which I believe they were made for. We're not interested in pressures here but draft and I may be wrong but I think that's why you are getting positive (+.05) rather than the negative reading (-.05) you are looking for. You are looking for negative readings because you want the draft to suck upwards but I think the article can explain it better.
Something that you just mentioned is the newer furnace having 5" pipe and going into 7". It still doesn't make your installation text book but if you were to go 5" all the way you may be able to create a better draft with a smaller diameter pipe to heat before it pulls a draft. That 5-7" might be to much pipe for that furnace to heat up, creating wild draft. That furnace might not produce enough exhaust heat to heat up the pipe.
Just a suggestion.
If you google manometers vs draft gauges you may find the difference in what they do but if you have that measures draft that's great but there is a difference between pressure and draft.
https://inspectapedia.com/heat/Chimn...easurement.php
#96
01-30-19, 12:29 PM
my unit is spec-ed for positive 0.02WC over fire and flue draft (negative) of 0.02 to 0.035 (slightly different on different carrier spec sheets, but that is what the furnace label says. This manometer that I have is capable of reading positive and negative.
the old flue was 5" dia to 7" as the installer made it in 2001. that is NOT what I now have.
the old flue was 5" dia to 7" as the installer made it in 2001. that is NOT what I now have.
