interpreting the NEC for GECs

Reply

  #1  
Old 04-21-06, 07:05 PM
bolide's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 1,909
Unhappy interpreting the NEC for GECs

Originally Posted by raider1
Are you saying that it is ok to land a grounding electrode conductor in a panel that is not the main disconnecting means, and not the main disconnecting means for a separate building as required in 225.32?
Of course. Are you saying it is not permitted?

Now mind you the the main still must have a direct attachment to the GES and all required electrodes.
But after that, I can add additional electrodes as I find them where I find them.

If I'm at the third subpanel at some distant location putting in a pump, and there's a metal wellcasing, I add it on to the EGC on the branch circuit even. I might run heavier EGC knowing that I'm picking up an electrode... or not - NEC doesn't care.

A well casing sure isn't a piece of equipment. It's an electrode.
It must be effectively bonded. By 250.58, it becomes part of the GES.


Originally Posted by raider1
250.24(4) ..."the grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be connected to the equipment grounding terminal, bar, or bus to which the main bonding jumper is connected".

You are not allowed to terminate a GEC at a panel other than the service disconnecting means.
That's completely false. I can drive a rod and connect it to any panel I want to. And why shouldn't I be permitted to so long as it doesn't allow objectionable currents?

There is no 250.24(4). Learn to read your Code book and finish reading the chapter before you make claims about what it says.

250.24(A)(4) is permissive. It allows us to do something.
It does not say "any grounding electrode conductor shall be connected directly to the main service disconnecting means for the building."

And it sure doesn't say anything about attaching it to the neutral bar.

Originally Posted by raider1
250.32(B)(2) of the 2005 NEC allows a feeder without an equipment grounding conductor if all of the requirements are met. If you use this section then you would run the grounding electrode conductor to the neutral bar and bond that to the panel.
Originally Posted by bolide
Where does it say to run it to the neutral bar?
Originally Posted by raider1
250.32(B)(2) "The grounded conductor run with the supply to the building or structure shall be connected to the building or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s) and shall be used for grounding and bonding of equipment...."
You claimed that Code requires that the GEC lands on the neutral bar.
I asked, "Where does it say to run it to the neutral bar?"

I ask again: Where does it say to run it to the neutral bar?

Are you supposed to strip the insulation back and attach the GEC to the GC with a split bolt? The statement talks only about the GC. It doesn't mention the neutral bar at all. You imagined that part.

The original poster was confused because his book says "enclosure" (and that statement is always true; whereas "neutral bar" is not). But you were just as confused as he was if not moreso. At least he realized that it should attach to the "ground bus" (which is always correct to do).

I asked you repeatedly to stop dragging up your nonsensical non-issues that had nothing to do with the actual thread. But you were arguing with anyone who posted anything.

Originally Posted by racraft
A detached structure requires a ground rod (or two).
Originally Posted by raider1
No a separate building or structure requires a grounding electrode system installed in accordance with 250.50 (250.32(A)).
No? Like "wrong"?? Like this isn't from NEC 250.56?
You could have added your clarification without using the word "No". Because yes the information posted was correct for the specific case at hand and most cases like it in general. So was no need for you to contradict the answer. You could have supplemented or clarified without disagreeing.


Originally Posted by raider1
You are not allowed to terminate a GEC at a panel other than the service disconnecting means.
No, NEC 250.54 says that I can connect my GEC to any 250.118 EGC I want to.

None of this has anything to do with the questions in the thread. Landing his GEC on the neutral bar was never going to be the answer. It did not need to be debated or investigated. When you couldn't quote the NEC to support your claim, you should have dropped it or sent me a PM asking whether I had conisdered the restriction that you never did come up with a citation for.
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 04-22-06, 12:07 AM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Fruit Heights, Utah
Posts: 280
I'm sooooo confused
 
  #3  
Old 04-22-06, 09:32 AM
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: WI/MN
Posts: 18,497
Rapture:

Relax, it just means you need to buy more tools.
 
  #4  
Old 04-24-06, 10:58 AM
raider1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Logan, Utah
Posts: 31
250.24(A) System Grounding Connections. A premises wiring system supplied by a grounded ac service shall have a grounding electrode conductor connected to the grounded service conductor, at each service, in accordance with 250.24(A)(1) through(A)(5).

The statement talks only about the GC. It doesn't mention the neutral bar at all. You imagined that part.
(1) General. The connection shall be made at any accessible point from the load end of the service drop or service lateral to and including the terminal or bus to which the grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting means.

"including the terminal or bus to which the grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting means."

Doesn't this say the "neutral bus"?

It also says that the connection shall be made " at the service disconnecting means." This means that the connection to the grounding electrode system shall be made at the service disconnecting means.

250.24(D) Grounding electrode conductor. A grounding electrode conductor shall be used to connect the equipment grounding conductors, the service-equipment enclosures,and, where the system is grounded, the grounded service conductor to the grounding electrode(s) required by part III of this article.

No, NEC 250.54 says that I can connect my GEC to any 250.118 EGC I want to.
250.54 Supplementary Grounding electrodes. Supplementary grounding electrodes shall be permitted to be connected to the equipment grounding conductors specified in 250.118 and shall not be required to comply with the electrode bonding requirements of 250.50 or 250.53(C) ect....

The electrodes talked about in 250.54 are not required in the NEC but are instead ones that are installed by choice and not required by 250.50.

A well casing sure isn't a piece of equipment. It's an electrode.
It must be effectively bonded. By 250.58, it becomes part of the GES
A metal well casing is not required to be bonded together with the rest of the electrodes specified is 250.50. "All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(7) shall be installed and used." A well casing according to the NEC is identified as Other Local Metal Underground Systems or Structures. If you are going to bond the well casing to the grounding electrodes you must use a bonding jumper sized in accordance with 250.53(C).

Chris
 

Last edited by raider1; 04-24-06 at 12:20 PM.
  #5  
Old 04-24-06, 10:12 PM
bolide's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 1,909
> "including the terminal or bus to which the grounded service
> conductor is connected at the service disconnecting means."
>
> Doesn't this say the "neutral bus"?

So where is the neutral terminal?

You need to connect to the grounded service conductor as it says.

If not, then you are admitting that you can connect it to the grounded service conductor by connecting to something else that is connected to the grounded service conductor.



> This means that the connection to the grounding electrode
> system shall be made at the service disconnecting means.

To the GES. But you MAY connect more electrodes to the GES anywhere else. I already explained this. You are ignoring NEC 250.54 which says that I can connect my GEC to any 250.118 EGC I want to.


> 250.24(D) Grounding electrode conductor.
> A grounding electrode conductor shall be used to connect the equipment
> grounding conductors, the service-equipment enclosures, and,
> where the system is grounded, the grounded service conductor
> to the grounding electrode(s) required by part III of this article.

Yes, the ECGs and the enclosure. That's not exclusively the neutral bar. These are things bonded to the neutral bar.


> The electrodes talked about in 250.54 are not required in the NEC
> but are instead ones that are installed by choice and not required by 250.50.

Correct. And when bonded, they become part of the GES.
They are not equipment grounds by any stretch of the imagination.


> A metal well casing is not required to be bonded together with the
> rest of the electrodes specified is 250.50.

Correct. Are you claiming that it is not an electrode?


> If you are going to bond the well casing to the grounding electrodes
> you must use a bonding jumper sized in accordance with 250.53(C).

Are you claiming that it is not an electrode?

Are you claiming that if it is effectively bonded to the GES that it does not become part of the GES?
 
  #6  
Old 04-25-06, 07:57 AM
raider1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Logan, Utah
Posts: 31
So where is the neutral terminal?
The grounded conductor terminal in the service equipment that is referenced in 250.24(A) is the lug, or buss that the grounded conductor is terminated on. 250.24(A)(4) allows the use of the equipment grounding bar to land the grounding electrode conductor as long as the main bonding jumper is connected to that grounding bar.

To the GES. But you MAY connect more electrodes to the GES anywhere else. I already explained this. You are ignoring NEC 250.54 which says that I can connect my GEC to any 250.118 EGC I want to.
The electrodes that are allowed in 250.54 are not part of the grounding electrode system.

"250.54 Supplementary Grounding electrodes. Supplementary grounding electrodes shall be permitted to be connected to the equipment grounding conductors specified in 250.118 and shall not be required to comply with the electrode bonding requirements of 250.50 or 250.53(C) ect...."

If these electrodes aren't required to meet the bonding requirements of 250.50 and 250.53(C) then they are not part of the grounding electrode system.

Correct. And when bonded, they become part of the GES.
They are not equipment grounds by any stretch of the imagination
Wrong, they are not part of the grounding electrode system or they would be required to meet the bonding requirements of 250.50 and 250.53(C).

Are you claiming that it is not an electrode?
When did I say that a metal well casing could not be used as a grounding electrode. 250.52(A)(7) clearly says that well casing may be used as a grounding electrode as long as they aren't effectively bonded to a metal water pipe.

Are you claiming that if it is effectively bonded to the GES that it does not become part of the GES?
If the well casing is bonded according to 250.50, and 250.53(C) then it becomes part of the grounding electrode system.

Chris
 
  #7  
Old 04-25-06, 10:58 AM
bolide's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 1,909
> The grounded conductor terminal in the service equipment that
> is referenced in 250.24(A) is the lug, or buss

The lug? Tell me, would you land the GEC under the lug with the GC? Please give an honest answer.
Would you bolt the GC directly to the GEC?


> that the grounded conductor is terminated on. 250.24(A)(4) allows
> the use of the equipment grounding bar to land the grounding electrode conductor
> as long as the main bonding jumper is connected to that grounding bar.

Yes, it does.
So you have conceded that you were wrong.
That should be the end of the discussion.



> The electrodes that are allowed in 250.54 are not part of the grounding electrode system.

They are so (NEC 250.58). The just are not a required part.


> If these electrodes aren't required to meet the bonding requirements of
> 250.50 and 250.53(C) then they are not part of the grounding electrode system.

What about if it is bonded according to 250.58?


> When did I say that a metal well casing could not be used as a grounding electrode.
> 250.52(A)(7) clearly says that well casing may be used as a grounding electrode
> as long as they aren't effectively bonded to a metal water pipe.

That's silly. If you bond it, it's still an electrode.


> If the well casing is bonded according to 250.50, and 250.53(C)
> then it becomes part of the grounding electrode system.

What about if it is bonded according to 250.58?
 
  #8  
Old 04-25-06, 02:32 PM
raider1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Logan, Utah
Posts: 31
You have got one thing right, this is the end of this discussion.

I am tired of repeating myself, we will have to agree to disagree.

Chris
 
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:21 PM.