zero-reference voltage

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  #1  
Old 05-17-06, 09:55 PM
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zero-reference voltage

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Originally Posted by nap
you see your post calls for attaching all to XO. well XO also is to be grounded (earth ground). See what happens when you do not ground XO.
During normal operation, absolutely nothing bad or detectable happens if that's what you mean.

Give a procedure by which you can determine from typical electrical diagnostic instruments whether X0 is grounded.

You can't do it. So stop posting your effluvium.

X0 is grounded to guard against high-voltage upset such a high voltage line contacting a low voltage line accidentally. It has nothing to do with providing a zero-reference point or stabilizing voltages in normal operation.
 
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  #2  
Old 05-18-06, 12:41 PM
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During normal operation, absolutely nothing bad or detectable happens if that's what you mean.
Didn't say anything bad happens under normal operations but yes, something "detectable" does happen.

Give a procedure by which you can determine from typical electrical diagnostic instruments whether X0 is grounded.
Tell me what type of X-former you have handy to play with and how many X terms it has.
You can't do it.
Yes I can
 
  #3  
Old 05-18-06, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by nap
Didn't say anything bad happens under normal operations
So what's the problem? You can't reference to earth? How is that a problem?

> Tell me what type of X-former you have handy to play with and how many X terms it has.

Obviously we are talking residential in this forum, so three.
 
  #4  
Old 05-18-06, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bolide
So what's the problem? You can't reference to earth? How is that a problem?

> Tell me what type of X-former you have handy to play with and how many X terms it has.

Obviously we are talking residential in this forum, so three.

I see nothing referencing this as a resi forum, merely electrical.

Do you actually have a transformer that you can connect as desired?

And if you can complete my test, you will see why referencing to earth is important and makes the job simpler when working controls.


Apparently I am not the only one that does not see that this is a resi specific forum:
http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=264420
 
  #5  
Old 05-18-06, 04:18 PM
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> I see nothing referencing this as a resi forum, merely electrical.


What does DIY mean?

> Do you actually have a transformer that you can connect as desired?

How is that relevant?
Your response needs to be something that any electrician can verify for himself.

> If you can complete my [stupid] test, you will see why referencing
> to earth is important and makes the job simpler when working
> controls.

Just explain it.


Then we'll see whether you have anything worth testing.

> Apparently I am not the only one that does not see that this
> is a resi specific forum

That person was just asking a question out of curiosity, it was not a DIY question.


Sure, we get lots of commercial inquiries.
But the thread about a neutral is DIY residential as is 95% of the material here. When answering a DIY residential question you should not bring up issues that are irrelevant.
Just stick to the residential scope where you made your "See what happens when you do not ground XO [sic]" challenge and tell us what happens.
 
  #6  
Old 05-18-06, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bolide
> I see nothing referencing this as a resi forum, merely electrical.


What does DIY mean?

> Do you actually have a transformer that you can connect as desired?

How is that relevant?
Your response needs to be something that any electrician can verify for himself.

> If you can complete my [stupid] test, you will see why referencing
> to earth is important and makes the job simpler when working
> controls.

Just explain it.


Then we'll see whether you have anything worth testing.

> Apparently I am not the only one that does not see that this
> is a resi specific forum

That person was just asking a question out of curiosity, it was not a DIY question.


Sure, we get lots of commercial inquiries.
But the thread about a neutral is DIY residential as is 95% of the material here. When answering a DIY residential question you should not bring up issues that are irrelevant.
Just stick to the residential scope where you made your "See what happens when you do not ground XO [sic]" challenge and tell us what happens.
If you do not have access to the proper situation (transformer that you can "play with") you will simply apply your logic and say that I am wrong. I can prove it to you but am not going to waste my time if you won't prove it to yourself. You seem to be the "seeing is believing" type of guy.

BTW: the neutral thing, it applies to commercial/industrial as well. It is relevant to all electrical installations.

So let me know when you have a transformer available.

If you want to learn what I am speaking of, I will oblige but you need to can the [stupid] remarks. If you want to continue with your "I'm right because I said so" rhetoric then we'll end this here and now. It's no sweat off my back.

BTW; I happen to know commercial business owners that are DYI'ers. They can get very in depth. Don't discount the website. It is a good source of info for all.
 
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Old 05-18-06, 04:45 PM
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> You seem to be the "seeing is believing" type of guy.

No, I'm a "there better be a rational explanation" type of guy.


> BTW: the neutral thing, it applies to commercial/industrial as
> well. It is relevant to all electrical installations.

So you should have no problem explaining it in a residential context that everyone can follow.


> So let me know when you have a transformer available.
Most people do not.

Let's see whether you can propose something rational.
Perhaps someone will make the test.
If you present a rational explanation, there's no need to test it as far as I am concerned.
It should stand on its own merits.

You have pretty much gutted your claim already. So all that remains is to see your allegedly simplified test procedure made possible by earth-grounding X0 at the pole.

We're waiting to hear how this simplifies testing.


> I happen to know commercial business owners that are DYI'ers.
Do you also know the meaning of "[sic]"?
 
  #8  
Old 05-18-06, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by nap
When trying to troubleshoot an ungrounded system, you will read different voltages from each "hot" to earth ground at different points in a system
If it is truly ungrounded, you will read 0V at all points because there is no pathway for current.

Because on earth it is not usually possible to avoid all conductive/coupled paths, you see phantom voltage readings with high-impedance instruments.

If the system is ungrounded, using earth ground as a reference is illogical.

However, referencing any other ungrounded conductor to X0 (or to another conductor) is perfectly valid (which is what one actually does on a grounded system; the fact is immaterial that X0 is earthed).
 
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Old 05-18-06, 05:29 PM
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No, I'm a "there better be a rational explanation" type of guy
. I do not propose explaining anything. I am prepared to have somebody prove it to themselves. Actually I have already told you what will happen, I was simply going to tell you how to prove it



So you should have no problem explaining it in a residential context that everyone can follow.
I have already told you et.al.


Most people do not.
actually most electricians I know do. You just have to think about it for a few minutes and I'll bet you do as well

Let's see whether you can propose something rational.
Perhaps someone will make the test.
If you present a rational explanation, there's no need to test it as far as I am concerned.
It should stand on its own merits.
As already stated, I have given you all the info needed, you will not accept this so we are down to "the proof is in the pudding"

You have pretty much gutted your claim already. So all that remains is to see your allegedly simplified test procedure made possible by earth-grounding X0 at the pole.
I have "gutted" nothing and I said nothing about earth grounding "at the pole". I specifically stated you would have to be able to have total control of the connections. Ground it only when required to do so per the activities requirements.

We're waiting to hear how this simplifies testing.
It is not used to simplify testing in a typical residential setting, although I suppose if the proper situation had developed, it would through those with no knowledge of what will happen into a tizzy and scratching their heads.


Do you also know the meaning of "[sic]"?
Why yes I do. It is generally used to refer to a misspelling within a quoted passage to inform the reader that the misspelling is an actual misspelling by the author. It is taken from the latin word "sic" which translates to the English term "thus". When used in a passage it is not used to replace the misspelled word but generally placed within brackets, as you did, to refer to the previous word. When you placed the word "stupid" within the brackets in my posting, which is what I was refferring to, was used in a manner to impute your thoughts into my statement, so therefore your question of ," do you know the meaning of [sic]?, is a meaningless question in regard to any of my posts as I neither wrote [sic] into any of my posts nor was reffering to it in any previous post of mine.

Did I pass your test??




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  #10  
Old 05-18-06, 05:35 PM
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If it is truly ungrounded, you will read 0V at all points because there is no pathway for current.
Wrong. You do not need current to read voltage.

Of course, even if you conduct your experiment from a hot air balloon it is not really possible to avoid all conductive/coupled paths; thus you see phantom voltage readings with high-impedance instruments.
Sounds like a fun experiment. I have no real idea what you are trying to infer here as the only conducter that would interfere with what I propose would be the wild chance that a plasma miracuslously developed in the area.
If the system is ungrounded, using earth ground as a reference is illogical.
It proves a point though. It proves MY point. It is not for use in application, it is a discovery of theory.

However, referencing any other ungrounded conductor to X0 (or to another conductor) is perfectly valid (which is what one actually does on a grounded system; the fact is immaterial that X0 is earthed)
Wrong again. I can prove it but you won't take the challange.
 
  #11  
Old 05-18-06, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by nap
Wrong. You do not need current to read voltage.
Voltage that is incapable of sustaining current is not useful for residential wiring. Phantom voltage readings won't operate a lamp.

> I have no real idea what you are trying to infer here as the only conducter [sic]
> that would interfere with what I propose would be the wild chance
> that a plasma miracuslously [sic] developed in the area.

Let's rule that out.

Let's just hear what you propose would be observed at a typical residence if X0 was not earthed.

> It proves a point though. It proves MY point.
> It is not for use in application, it is a discovery of theory.

In other words, it is impractical and useless.

> I can prove it but you won't take the challange [sic].

Please set forth exactly what it is that you claim could be proved.

> Actually I have already told you what will happen

Specifically, you stated, "See what happens when you do not ground XO [sic]". You did not state what will happen.
You stated only that nothing bad will happen in normal operation.

> I was simply going to tell you how to prove it.

That is what I am asking you to do.
Set forth your claim of what can be proved and proceed to explain how it can be proved.

> I said nothing about earth grounding "at the pole".

So what exactly do you mean when you state "See what happens when you do not ground XO [sic]"?

You need to set forth your claim precisely as to what is connected where.

> I specifically stated you would have to be able to have total control
> of the connections.
> Ground it only when required to do so per the activities requirements.

That's fine. Be precise about where it is to be grounded.
 

Last edited by bolide; 05-18-06 at 09:34 PM.
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