What about having 2-tier pricing for residential repairs?

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Old 03-17-07, 11:05 AM
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What about having 2-tier pricing for residential repairs?

Governement has caused it so that we have expensive licensed trades people charging buku dollars for repairs now that are getting quite comonplace, since the advent of big box stores selling and evening telling people how to do repairs. Also the manufactureres are making it so that the materials used are easier and safer to work with.

For example, in plumbing, we now have pvc and copper rather than cast and okum/lead or galvanized pipe that needed to be cut and threaded on the job. In electrical, no more tricky knob and tube and proper techniques to insulate and protect the wire and no flying taps to deal with. Now you just string out some Romex and use wire nuts. You also don't have to underastand how to properly ground a metal box or in coinjunction with rigid or bx conduit. Because now they use plastic boxes, with the Romex. Stuff like that.

That said, it seems a little ridiculous to have to call in a licensed plumber or electrician on some of the stuff.

There shoud be a more lenient system in place that makes it EASY for little old ladies and other people, not so much in the know, to be able to hire people in confidence who can put in ceiling fans, bath fans, add an outlet, a fixture, sweat some pipes back, put in a new sink, and such stuff, without having to pay $50...75, or whatever dollars per hour, plus often pay for jacked up parts prices, for commonplace repairs in homes.

About 15 years ago, I was thinking about buyin gthis house from an old couple. They told me they paid a plumbing company in town $110 to change out their toilet wax ring and $225 to put in a Moen Chateau kitchen faucet. I told them that *I* could have done that for them for about $30 labor for the two jobs combined (about $120 total parts and materials), and made money! The plumbing company was advertising down at the Senior Central hall where these people frequented. Clever plumbing company for advertising down there. It is because of government intervention, no longer part of the free open market capitalistic way, that has enabled certain professions to legally exploit people because the government has basically mandated this. And this is wrong. Not for people to be charged this for non-technical work. Industrial steamfitter jobs, or electrical industrial 480 volt applications: yes. Some of this house stuff?: no.

It's also refreshing to know now in the furnace industry that they are putting codes into the control boxes so that anybody can learn (if they want) what is wrong with their furnace, so they can go out and put in the new part. Because in that trade also, people have to spend llots of money. SOME companies have been known to be nice and walk people through some simple questions over the phone, but not all companies do. Some will ask the homeowner if the outside vent is plugged with snow or something. Others come out and clear the snow away or put in a new fuse, and turn in a nice bill.


I do not begrudge the fact that licensed people are worth their salt in many ways. They have been schooled and have learned of many of the nuances that many people don't know. But...with houses, as time goes on...more and more people are finding out what it takes to do some of these easier jobs, that dont' take a degree in rocket science. And I can't say that I have heard of any more houses burning up, or floods in houses because of it.

I think if the licenced people want to make all that money they should have to earn it, by doing more complex work at commercial and industrial applications where they really need to put their schooling to use. And let us have a system in place where people can easily obtain some special (restricted) license for doing a lot of things in residential, where it would be very clearly spelled out what you can and can't do.

I think some communities already have versions of this for certain things, and if you know about such programs could you please tell about them?

I don't plan to argue with anyone here on this matter. But I would enjoy hearing everyone's views on this. I have argued with my mother about this as she admits she's like to see lower prices but said she woud only trust someone licensed. Well, if we could have a system where we can have a ittle bit going both ways. A sort of a compromise.
 
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Old 03-17-07, 12:48 PM
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Boy are you going to reap the wrath of the pro's around here, including me.

First, I don;t see where the government is causing the fees charged by tradesmen.

Do you realize that there are more people killed by 120 volt exposure than any other voltage out there? Why you may ask. Obviously not because it is any more powerful than the others. My suspicion is that more people are exposed to it and many of those people have no idea how to work with it.

As far as what we charge. You offering to do the work noted for $30 bucks. Did you include the cost of owning and maintaining a vehicle in that fee, the sost of fuel to get there? How about the cost of health insurance? How about the accountant that does the books? The receptionist at the office that recieved the call? The taxes the employer must pay over and above what the employee pays? Did you include the cost of warranteeing the repair. Maintiaing the building for the contractor? Money to buy new equipment to replace the old? Liability insurance? The actual hourly rate the tech deserved? and many, many, MANY, more.

and the biggie. because the guy they called knew what to do, how to do it, where to get the parts (oh, I forgot above the time required to procure the parts).

I don;t know what you think a working man deserves to be paid but if you look at national averages, tradesmen are not in the "rich" group. I have to budget my income just as most others I know. I live in a quite inexpensive home and have realtively low utility costs. I am far from overpaid.

So Dave,how much do you think I (a trained and licensed (where neccessary)) elelctrician should be paid? Include some benefits in that since quoting an hourly wage is meaningless. It is a wage and bene package that is the total income.

Just so you do not think we are greedy, all the union trades in my area do work via a program (used to be called Christmas in April. forget the new name) where about 25 homes owned by those needing it revieve whatever it takes to repair their home and bring it up to applicable codes TOTALY FREE.



The last home I worked on got totally rewired (including service), almost all new plumbing and many carpenter repairs and paint.

The house across the street was being re-roofed and new windows.
All the labor is volunteer and the materials are either donated or purchased by the controlling organization. again, at no cost to the home owner.

We also wired the local haunted house for free. This was not a simple little house either. The park covers oh, 30 or so acres and the house is probably 200 x 400 feet. The park "hires" workers annually to work the house and "pays" them by giving money to the organization they are affiliated with. (about $100k last year in disbursed money) All the labor used to wire this park is either totally donated or paid inthe manner above. The original wiring was total donation to the park.

and just so you aware, the electrical union in our area does have different rates for residential electricians and commercial/industrial electricians. If I remember correctly it is about $7 per hour on the check and around $4/ hour benefits.

Do you actually know anything required by the NEC? Can you apply it properly? It applies to a residential application just as it does to any other.


I think you are in the wrong on this one Dave.
The cost a contractor charges is SO much more than what the tech gets paid.
================

How much time do you estimate it would take you to do the work you spoke of? I would like to know how little you are willing to work for.
 
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Old 03-17-07, 01:44 PM
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Oh my. Ouch.

For starters, I see what you mean about all the expenses one can incur. Quite the list you did and it is true.

But shouldn't then the pro move on and do the jobs do-it-yourselfers and even moonlighters aren't qualified to do?...but allow those people who CAN do these home repair tasks, who make money at other jobs where they get health insurance, or they have other investments, and can still do this kind of work because they enjoy it and enjoy giving little old ladies deals to see the smile on their faces?

And yes the government did cause this. They are the ones who came up with licensing rules. This is not free open capitalism where any Joe can get in the picture and compete with one another to drive the price down.

Regarding the NEC: I am not condoning that dopes be allowed to wire up people's houses either and was not implying that. Rather let's concentrate on how we can make it easier for people to take tests to secure restricted licenses enabling them to do some of the stuiff that so commonly moonlighters do. I have known guys for 20 years who have done electrical and plumbing jobs for people and haven't burned down their houses on them or flooded out their houses or asphyxiated them from sewer gas.

We need a fair compromise here of sorts, I feel. Something realistic. We have to put a stop to practices like the example I gave from a very large plumbing company in town. One could argue that if they are so greedy, how have they managed to stay in business for all these years. A couple reasons quickly come to mind. One is a huge yellow page ad. Another is in the fact that they also do big contract jobs. But cleaning house on what I'd call pretty straight forward and non-dangerous jobs like the two I cited, should have something down about this.
 

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Old 03-17-07, 07:43 PM
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there are "handymen" pretty much everywhere. they do those little jobs you spoke of. most places allow the homeowner to do it their-self on alot of repairs, though some may require inspection. there are alot of people who do not want to do it. they do not want to hire the handyman as they feel the bigger company will give them better service/warranty/advice etc. . There are always some companies/people who will take advantage, no matter what.
if i was buying a 100,000 dollar house, i would rather know roto rooter redid the plumbing, rather than fred, from around the corner.
 
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Old 03-17-07, 08:45 PM
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actually until a couple years ago, my main county of work did not require an electrical contractors license at all. Anybody could do the work. Apparently there were problems with the work being done so they changed to require licensure.

as far as ease of testing. It's a piece of cake. all you have to have is the $75 and the knowledge to be able to pass the test. If you do not have the knowledge to pass the test, you should not be doing the work.Why do you feel it would be ok if a person only knew how to do part of the job? How can you be taught only part of the knowledge required to be an electrician, or a plumber?

Do you know how what circuits are specifically required in a home and what you can put on those circuits. Do you knwo how to determine the difference between a ground and a neutral in a junction box? Do you know WHY there is a seperate neutral and grounding wire in an electrical system? after all, they are bonded together at the service panel anyway.

That's all pretty basic stuff but a lot of folks that want to change switches don;t know. If you get it wrong, it can cause a very serious situation.

While I do sympathize with you that there are people that cannot afford the cost of a plumber but trying to partailly teach one is not practical.

as far as competition to limit fees; there is competition. Don;t you think if somebody could actually do the work that much cheaper they would be out there sucking up all the work? It isn;t happening because it is not a reality.
==================
Now, you never answered my question. How long do you think it would take for you to earn the $30 you would charge for the work you spoke of. Don;t forget to include time to procure parts and time to do the associated paperwork. After all, those are part of the time it takes to do the job.

one thing I didn;t mention before. the owner of the company I work for does get stiffed occasionally. Just late last year a mod home sales business stiffed him for $5k. He still had to pay the guys that did all the work. It takes time to collect on people that don;t want to pay and I'm sorry to say but everybody pays for the work that those that refuse to pay for it didn;t.

btw: what happens when your handymans poor work burns down a house. Does he carry $1,000,000 liability insurance like my boss has to? It's not a great savings when the poor folks don't have a house anymore and nobody to reclaim the money from.

If you want to take the required testing to recieve a license and charge nothing for your labor, there is nothing stopping you. Go for it. The poor folks will love you and you can keep doing it until you can;t afford to live anymore.
 
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Old 03-17-07, 08:58 PM
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I totaly agree with Nap
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Old 03-17-07, 09:07 PM
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After you get the $30.00.
Do you pay tax on this income.
Do you pay Insurance.
How much is let after expenses.
What about retirement or do you have to keep working till you die.
The reason for licensing is to keep dopes from working on your house.
Frank
 
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Old 03-17-07, 09:27 PM
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There's a difference between someone being a professional and someone doing odd jobs to make a few extra bucks.

A lady I worked with wanted laminate put in. HD wanted over 500 bucks. She asked me to do it but I did. I really didn't want to. Took me 16 hours total. I include the time it takes to load my tools, drive around getting stuff, drive to her house and then home, taking off baseboards, cleaning up the job, going to the dump and unloading my tools.

She was happy with the job but when told her I was charging $300.00, She thought that was outrageous so I charged her about 150.00 because I wanted to keep peace at work. Basically, she got me, my truck, my gas, my tools, my expertise and my time for less ten bucks an hour and she still thinks I ripped her off.

If I was a pro, I could not do business at that rate.
 
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Old 03-18-07, 05:31 AM
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Well, it's not just the licensing that makes certain trades cost more

It's hard for someone who collects a paycheck to understand how much it really costs to pay them

Let's say your a noodle salesman
You sit at a desk and earn $20 an hour selling noodles, mostly on the phone
What does it cost the owner?

Well, there's you, which actually costs her more than $20 an hour
Your benefits, your vacation and sick time, that's all above the $20 an hour
The phone, the phone line subscription
The advertisements to make the phone ring
The time you spend waiting for the phone to ring (you still get paid for that)
Your coffee breaks
The chair and desk you are sitting in
The lights to see by, the computer you type the order on...or pencils, pads
The bathroom and sink to wash your hands, the water for that
The building, the parking lot
The liability insurance
The bookkeeper to figure out how much you get paid
The paper your checks are written on

Never mind the actual noodles themselves, the warehouse, the truckers, etc, maybe they are not directly related to your $20, but you wouldn't be getting that paycheck w/o them

It's all so you can collect a $20 an hour paycheck selling noodles

Now, if you are a tradesman, on top off all that, you've got some licenses
This is not so tradesman can charge more
This is to protect the public from limited-knowledge people charging them to destroy their houses and possibly kill them

Then there's the special knowledge that takes years, the special tools that take thousands, the special truck that costs tens of thousands...

Then of course, no business could survive w/o profit
It's not a dirty word, it's a necessary part of business
Business can't survive and grow w/o it

Don't get me wrong, it really bugs me when a relative tells me they had to pay $125 to have a toilet moved for the tile guy...hey...I could have done that

But I also know it's not worth it for that plumber to show up at the house (start the vehicle, get his assistant, and drive to the house) for less than $75
He's better off staying in the office
And I know what can happen when you try and move some plumbing, the potential for old things to break, and the half rotted/rusted pieces that should be replaced
I can see why he has to charge $125 to move (and replace) the toilet for the tile guy
 
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Old 03-18-07, 08:34 AM
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over at another board I frequent , with contractors theres a what tool did you buy today thread .

point is while new tools are fun they are a constant expense they get lost , broken , wear out are stolen . newer tools to make the job go better are popping up

when I show up at the site its in a truck loaded with tools and materials to allow me to do the job quickly and safely , regardless of what comes up .

so the hourly fee doesn't go in my pocket , it goes to , the state , the distributor , the insurance company's , the landline phone company , the cell phone company , the ISP , the tool sellers ,the cost of seminars , the office landlord , the advertising venues etc etc...whats left over gets to my pocket
 
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Old 03-18-07, 10:13 AM
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Dave, you can come out from behind the blast shield. We won;t hurt you.

As you see, there is much more to what a tradesman charges than what one sees. The licensing required is not so one can charge more, it is to assure the state and those paying for work to be done that the licensee has at least some level of knowledge required to perform the job at hand, correctly and because of that, safely.

I know guys that do "side work" all the time. As far as I'm concerned they are foolish. Of course they can undercut my shop rate but they expose themselves to liablility (and unless you are protected by insurance and a level of incorporation, that could mean everything your earn for the rest of your life) and actually injure their own earning power.

You may ask how. Well, as you have seen, there are costs the average consumer does not consider so when some guy runs out for $10/hr, this falsely allows the consumer to believe the legit contractors are overcharging everybody. That makes the legit guys look bad and undeservedly so.

So what happens? folks become resistant to paying not only a fair rate but a neccessary rate to have work done. So what happens then? The contractor loses business and (hopefully) the guy cutting his bosses throat gets laid off.

What happens then is de-inflation. Sounds like a good idea but it really isn;t. Think of the guy that just purchased that reasonable market value work truck and is locked into a loan payment. Then consider his office lease that is locked in for a year or two or five.

These are expenses that are now fixed and what de-inflation does to these folks is literally bankrupt them. They can no longer charge an adequate fee to recover overhead and are forced into insolvency. That eventually hurts everybody.

So Dave, whast are you trying to do, put the country into a depression???

A reasonable fee for a job well done. You cannot change the economics of it and by charging an unrealistically low fee, you not only cheat yourself, you damage the economics of the country.
==========================
So, how long would it take you to earn that $30? Does it really sound like you will profit at that job?

Don;t take my diatribe as accepting the raping of a customer as ok; it's not, but understand the difference between a fair charge and an exorbitant one.
 
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Old 03-18-07, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tae View Post
there are "handymen" pretty much everywhere. they do those little jobs ...etc...
Fair enough. I started this thread to see...to get opinions from both the licensed guys AND the people who want service done.
 

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Old 03-18-07, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by nap View Post
actually until a couple years ago, my main county of work did not require an electrical contractors license at all. Anybody could do the work. ...etc.... Go for it. The poor folks will love you and you can keep doing it until you can;t afford to live anymore.
nap,

In response to what you thought I did not ansewer. Let me just make it short.(Well...THAT never happened. ) I have done actual contracting, insured, with a partner, and now I do maintenance. I made money both ways, charging very reasonable by not hardly having much overhead. Many big companies do themselves in with their showroom/retail store, fleets of vehicles, secretary(ies), warehouse to store an inventory of parts,etc. And this creates bigger taxes such a person/company would have to pay, also. And customers have to really pay because the company has so much stuff! *Too* much stuff, for the small stuff needing done in houses. You don't NEED all that stuff to do all the small stuff in houses. Like:

Putting in garbage disposers, dishwashers, lights, swithes, putting in ceiling or wall bozxes where there were none before, ceiling fans, bathroom fans, a GFCI, tapping into a main line and putting in a washer standpipe, sectioning out rotten pipe and putting in new, installing faucets, toilets.... I could go on. I can literally work out of my gas saving CAR, myself, no partner, and do all these tasks.

To make money like a moonlighter, the best way is if you work for repeat clientelle and you can just go to jobs without meeting with anyone. Having to meet with homeowners first is another reason people have to charge more. But if you can avoid that and just go there and do what needs doing, you can wind up with a list of jobs to go to, one after the next, and make money at it.

I know plumber/company who COULD go under this year. A fairly big operator. The housing market went flat...suddenly. He has a showroom, a warehouse, vehicles and men he was actually employing with all the costs associated with that. Now he says he is only doing service work, like me. How can one like that feel, going into someone's home, charging $80 an hour to do do-it-yourself type work that homeowners are able to do themselves when they buy the stuff available and recieve free coaching from the guys down at the big box stores? I'd feel guilty.

I woud recant all I have said if we actually passed an enforced law that says EVERYONE has to be full blown licensed and insured to a certain dollar amount. ANYone caught doing their own stuff )(even on your own home) or anyone else doing work for hire is going to jail. I could live with that. But the way it is now, it is sort of,"....wink, wink, um..I'm not supposed to do thse work but I know how so..."...THAT sort of thing.

I believe that licensed people who have learned SO much stuff should go over to the commercial and industrial stuff, where then they can actually need to use their buildings they own and employees as when they are in THAT busines they have to have draftsman and everything in doing job layouts...the whole turnkey job. But in home repairs or little niggly add on stuff, let home owners seek out guys like me who have been working 35 years in the housing business who have learned enough to do things safely. Let it be the homeowner's call on this.

And isn't it silly to say homeoners can go to big box stores and buy stuff and do things in their own houses and put their family...their kids...the NEW owners of the house, down the road, at risk?...by saying and letting the big box stores sell...yet make it against some law to allow MORE qualified people, in handymen, or ex-builders who now work in factories for health insurance, to moonlight and do this work for others?

I understand the need for regulations where people that are not in the know can do things that can leave dangerous consequences. And because of that, like I said, I think there is acompromise answer to all this, out there.

Actually, I understand that you can get a restricted plumbers license here but I'm not sure all that it entails.

With electricity...I realize there is a lot to know...like you have emphasized.

What I would like to see: If they could come up with a compromise plan ... to have a pamphlet that lists many typical things that do-it-yourselfers anhd hired handymen should know that would be some of the most common stuff in plumbing and electrical. A pamphlet, where things like breaker sizes and wires and boxes and grounding and GFCI's (where/distance requirements) would be covered, length of wire runs, and correct methods of wire joinery. In plumbing I would mention stuff regarding drains, vents, air gaps, drain line pitch and other such stuff. And then I would list things you are not allowed to do without the complete Grade A licence, like plumb a whole house or wire up a house. That it has to be confined to the small jobs... some of which I listed earlier.

lBut I still think there is an answer here where at least we would wind up with a system where the licensed guy doesn't get some monopoly on making $50 or more and hour for doing even the most simple jobs that these handymen that have been doing it for years can do, for 1/3 or whatever. Yes, a person has to understand wire gauge sizes, breaker sizes, packing wires in boxes, proper grounding and all of that. But it stil strikes me as pretty odd that if we have a dangerous system going on here now with all these people tackling there own stuff...take even homeowners who do their own stuff and perhaps don't tell inspectors...that I find it odd that houses are not burning down right and left. Or that paramedics aren't ushering people out of homes, being overcome with deadly sewer gas.

At least not in Eau Claire anyway. And *I* have run into lots of stuff in really old houses that you would think couuld be cdangerous...like no boxes up in ceilings that have wood chips or Kraft paper surrounding the wires...yet, no fires. I have run into this alot, and the houses still stand and probablhy years ago there was either no code or a greatly lesser one.
 

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Old 03-18-07, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by nap View Post
Dave, you can come out from behind the blast shield. We won;t hurt you.

As you see, there is much more to what a tradesman charges than what one sees. ...etc...etc...
Don;t take my diatribe as accepting the raping of a customer as ok; it's not, but understand the difference between a fair charge and an exorbitant one.
A compromise somewhere between the $10 an hour and the $50-80 or whatever dollars might be good. Especially for work that you and I know that most people can most likely do who are the people experienced and comfortable in doing it.
 

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Old 03-18-07, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by slickshift View Post
Well, it's not just the licensing that makes certain trades cost more..etc..etc...
I see your point, also. But take your last couple paragraphs. Okay, we both know there are people who can pul that toiolet. LET them. And let the plumber with all the tools, go do the jobs that require all those tools.

If the handy guy wants to take the risk,..and the homeowner too, then if both agree and something breaks major and a REAL plumber has to be called in, then I'm sure something ammicably could be worked out. IF something happened to me and I got in a pickle, I would tell the plumber, or the homeowner could, that at least the toilet is off now so you can get to the nitty gritty faster.
 

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Old 03-18-07, 02:56 PM
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I hope all the consumers continue to follow the advice of the folks at the big box stores. It usually makes the job much bigger and more expensive when the home owner follows incorrect advice and finally relent and call those trained and knowledgable to do the work. I'll bet there are companies that make a fortune doing that.

taking the advice from MOST of those folks is paramount to having your gardener tell you how to remove your own appendix.
 
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Old 03-18-07, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DaVeBoy;
If the handy guy wants to take the risk,..and the homeowner too, then if both agree and something breaks major and a REAL plumber has to be called in, then I'm sure something ammicably could be worked out....
Actually, that bring us to another point...or two...
No one has to call a real plumber if a real plumber does the job in the first place

Did the stuff "just break"? or did "the handyman break it"?
Did Mr. Homeowner hire Miss Handyman to move the toilet for $40, only to have Miss Handyman break some ancient supply lines, that now have to be replaced, causing the Real Plumber to charge Mr. Homeowner not just $125 (to do the work Miss Handyman couldn't), but $325?
Who pays the extra $200?
Mr. Homeowner?
I'm sure he'll be thrilled about that one

In the contracting world, there is an answer
In this type of situation, it should be Miss Handyman's insurance
Which, by the way, she won't get if she's pulling toilets w/o a license
 
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Old 03-18-07, 02:59 PM
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If the handy guy wants to take the risk,..and the homeowner too, then if both agree and something breaks major and a REAL plumber has to be called in, then I'm sure something ammicably could be worked out.

what about when it causes a major (read: expensive) problem.

I have folks tell me all the time when trying to recruit me to do side work. "I wouldn't sue you if something happened"

First, that is usually a lie. Next, the insurance company that is paying for that burned out house doesn;t care what you and the home owner agreed to. They are going to sue you for every penny it costs them.
 
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Old 03-18-07, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE=nap;
"First, that is usually a lie. Next, the insurance company that is paying for that burned out house doesn;t care what you and the home owner agreed to. They are going to sue you for every penny it costs them."


Yup
Correct
Even if the homeowner says "Don't Sue Them!" (not likely)
The Homeowner Insurance Company does not have to, and will not abide by that
 
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Old 03-18-07, 07:46 PM
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If the handy guy wants to take the risk,..and the homeowner too, then if both agree and something breaks major and a REAL plumber has to be called in, then I'm sure something ammicably could be worked out. ##

This means, I take everything you own now and in the future. YOU pay for the "REAL" tradesman to fix it.. etc.etc.

What would this do to your $30.00? My guess: You would need a safety net(insurance) Suddenly you need to charge more for Justin (justin case). Well well, Now your one of those guys out there charging a fortune for nothing.


I work in an institutional setting now, (handicapped child) Construction could not meet my insurance needs. This employment does not meet my finacial needs. So yes I do side work (moonlighting). I also carry a licsence, $1,000,000 In liability insurance. I do small jobs that the residential guys can't be botherd with. For 2 reasons,1)The time it would take, They would need to charge for a minium, This would have an apearance of ripping people off.(Bad bussiness move). 2) there is no "real" money in some small work.

I have the blessings and (referals) from several contractors in my area, Peacfull existance.Bigger jobs I send to them.

I do charge the market rates, so no throat cutting involved.

Some may not like the direction my carreer has gone.. But family first.


Now . I spent 5 years of night school- holding 2 jobs. And 4 years of full time employment in the trade. 20 years later, I still learn something new every day.

So your theory of "Partial training" is nonsence.
This only means you know enough to get some one killed, but not enough to realize it.
 
  #21  
Old 03-18-07, 07:54 PM
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So your theory of "Partial training" is nonsence.
This only means you know enough to get some one killed, but not enough to realize it.
==========================================================
Very well put LL.
 
  #22  
Old 03-19-07, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank99 View Post
After you get the $30.00.
Do you pay tax on this income.
Do you pay Insurance.
How much is let after expenses.
What about retirement or do you have to keep working till you die.
The reason for licensing is to keep dopes from working on your house.
Frank
Yes. No cheating on my part.
No. Not anymore. I am just careful. EXTRA careful. If anything were to happen the worst case scenario would be something costing several hundered dollars and I 'd just ante up. I won't work on questionable stuff for private people at this juncture. If I did, I would tell them to sign something that I'm not held responsible.

Almost all of it. You can do things frugally. As an example, I haven't had to pay for anything in my house. Living place is paid for. Plus I pay cash for used vehicles. I don't live above my means. Never have, ever. No credit cards. Yet I own tons of tools and supplies I've sprung for over the years, and even though that cost me, I have gotten my money back.

Retirement? Social Secuity and my rental business.

Let people weed out the dopes. Buyer beware.

Oh, Frank. Have you ever identified yourself as to if you are a licensed repairman yourself or are you a homeowner-do-it-yourselfer?

And...more about "retirement". Actually...what IS retirement? Quitting and doing something useless like tying fishing flies or something? Nah. I'll keep at least putzing doing whatever I am capable of. Retirement is admitting that soon the jig is up and the next step is assisted living, then the nursing home, and then...that's it...curtains. Not for me. No thanks. I'll keep staying active like my geriatric relatives.
 
  #23  
Old 03-19-07, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by nap View Post
So your theory of "Partial training" is nonsence.
This only means you know enough to get some one killed, but not enough to realize it.
==========================================================
Very well put LL.

But where do we draw the line as to what is partial? You can do a lot of stuff without knowing how *everything* is supposed to work. I can work on appliances without knowing every part that is under or inside something. You *do* have to know certain fundamentals though.

I listed some actual things I believe many people can do (that are in the know on what they are trying to do), and have done so for years, without problems. And do-it-yourselfers are asking you guys here how to do these tasks...right? Why you bother telling them, if they don't know everything there is to know? Then when the person learns from what you said, they can now do that job, right?

How is it *I* had to go back after the master electrician and fix the outlet that fell back inside the wall after he put in a new one in remodeling work...and fix the light fixture that shorted out on him in new installation (he or his helper got a wire pinched up inside,... where me, I am extra careful because I'm not licensed/insured? How come *I* haven't had any do-overs to do, and no plumbing ruptures, gas emmissions, or fires start?

Maybe I can't think right on this subject just because I am some sort of anamoly...an exception to how most guys are who have been say moonlighting this stuff on the side and keeping it hush hush. That I'm not the only one who is a dope? That I am the only one who understands about 6 inches of wire, where to nail a plastic wire staple, applications of line and load in GFCI's, 2-wire vs 3 wire outlets and what kind of recepticle you must put in, and that you can buy protective plates to nail on so people don't nail through a wire.... and stuff like that. Maybe it's because I have had the opportunity to hear what the inspector has had to say regarding rental inspections on their write-up sheet on the properties every year for about 20 years. Maybe I AM some kind of exception....I don't know.

Like I stated in an earlier post...if they can't figure out a better way than the system they have created, then they should be totally fair (and safe) about this and not allow ANYone to do work without being licensed without the full knowledge of everyhing.
 
  #24  
Old 03-19-07, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by slickshift View Post
QUOTE=nap;
"First, that is usually a lie. Next, the insurance company that is paying for that burned out house doesn;t care what you and the home owner agreed to. They are going to sue you for every penny it costs them."


Yup
Correct
Even if the homeowner says "Don't Sue Them!" (not likely)
The Homeowner Insurance Company does not have to, and will not abide by that
A person should be able to make an agreement in advance with the homeowner. If you tell the homeowner in writing, and both of you sign attesting to this, then if the insurance company does not pay for the fire, then the homeowner really shouldn't be able to sue the worker for house repair/replacement because they had the agreement in writing. If I am wroing about this, then that is a bad law with government intrusion between what is agreed upon by 2 adults.
 
  #25  
Old 03-19-07, 06:04 PM
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Think about it

##Oh, Frank. Have you ever identified yourself as to if you are a licensed repairman yourself or are you a homeowner-do-it-yourselfer?##

Dave Have You? I see no profile. So be carefull. (just a tradesman, but Ive been bit before)

##But where do we draw the line as to what is partial? You can do a lot of stuff without knowing how *everything* is supposed to work. I can work on appliances without knowing every part that is under or inside something. You *do* have to know certain fundamentals though.##

Correct. Alot of electrical things will work when wired wrong. I have seen many. So Are you asking that they are safe? Or are you asking that they were installed correctly, with no (limited) hazard to the end user?

Grab and read the code book, your fingers will get more tired than your mind. Because one section sends you to another,then another then back to where you started. This is for a reason. Nothing is black and white, yet it is all connected. Do you Complain when your Lawyer sends you a bill for a 10 min. phone call? Then asks you to come in to clarify it, for $150+/ hr? Probably not.

I'm only "partialy trained" in law, and I know that aint right.


A person should be able to make an agreement in advance with the homeowner. $#$#

"TRUST me. I'm not like the others!"
OH MY, Can any one in this day and age be so neive!!!!!!!!! Your best friend would drag you thru the courts if they fell on your front steps! Then say "Nothing personal, your insurance will cover it". If not them Your childs best friends parents would!

I love people, BUT you can't trust them when money is involved. Make your deal, screw up, Then get back to me.
 

Last edited by lectriclee; 03-19-07 at 07:26 PM. Reason: Add: "complain"
  #26  
Old 03-19-07, 09:20 PM
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Sorry I missed this

What about having 2-tier pricing for residential repairs? ##

There is already a residential and commercial priceing system in place.

Regardless, 4 hours is 4 hours. Someone pays.

Sooner or later, we all pay. Either at home or in the products we buy.
 
  #27  
Old 03-21-07, 11:05 AM
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electriclee,

..to let you know I read your posts. I knew what they'd be about/whose side they'd be on before I read them, based on what you do for a living.

I was actually thinking about abandoning this thread as I got into the OP...but couldn't see wasting my 1/2 hour or whatever it took me.

I knew I'd get raked over the coals by the licensed tradespeople. I KNEW it.

I was hoping to hear from a broad range of people here but it's not happeneing. Others are keeping mum as to maybe stay on the good side of moderators or something, I am guessing.
 
  #28  
Old 03-21-07, 11:56 AM
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What about having 2-tier pricing for residential repairs?

About all I can say is that I agree with you - you are just guessing.

It is interesting that you review posts and probably times. You must have a night job to allow you to post during the normal working and construction period and those times when you are working on your projects.

Dick
 
  #29  
Old 03-21-07, 01:16 PM
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Talking Cheer up

DaVeBoy,

Don't take it so personal.
I and Many others here have dedicated most if not ALL our adult lives to a particular trade. Be it Medical, Dental, Law, mechanics whatever. For someone to think that they can just take a course at night or for 3 weekends and be compitant, Is crazy!
Yes you can learn some basics. Change a switch, rec, toilet, spark plug,or such.

When you start to get into changing and adding things, Now that is where the training knowledge and experience comes in. this is what you pay for.

Regardless of what you may think. People have died from improper installations of toilets (septic sytems), Brick walls and adding 1- yes 1 120V receptacle.

I repeat myself.
This only means you know enough to get some one killed, but not enough to realize it.
 
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