off topic Boeing 787 question

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Old 08-24-12, 06:56 PM
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off topic Boeing 787 question

look at this video
ANA Boeing 787 landing (FRA-HND) - YouTube
see the little tab in the middle of the flaps that keeps moving up and down before the landing
....is that the trim tab or a tab just for altitude hold or is it to do with airspeed control..???
 
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Old 08-24-12, 07:30 PM
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Appears to be a flaperon [I'm a former power plants guy, not airframes, so this is a lot of guessing]. It's definitely a moveable flight control surface and is being used for roll control. Watch the wing tip as it responds to the surface as it goes up and down; the wing tip moves the opposite direction just like an aileron. One of you pilot-types out there jump right in if I'm mistaken.
 
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Old 08-24-12, 07:57 PM
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Yes from looking it up its a flaperon

Flaperon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I flew with my uncle years ago and they did not have stuff like that on the old Cessna's as I remember., but the link above talks about the Junkers of the 1930's having them.

Very interesting.

But I am sure all the aviation enthusiasts know the 787 was 11 tons over weight. for the first run.... What!!! What a sad engineering mistake. I feel sorry for that department. I worked in manufacturing and I have friends at Lakehurst naval base here in NJ. They say its was huge mistake.


But look at the wings and the design on this thing....I love it. I can only wish I was on the design and test team.....


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Old 08-25-12, 05:11 AM
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More recently - 1950's to 80's - the Vought F-8 Crusader used them.

Pretty airplane the 787. I have dvr'd a three part documentary on the building of the Airbus A380. Don't think I ever want to fly on one, but what an engineering marvel.
 
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Old 08-25-12, 05:19 AM
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When a passenger in a window seat I like watching the control surfaces and how their use changes at different airspeeds. In cruise only the ailerons at the wingtip deflect by the tiniest amount. Then getting lower and slower the ailerons move quite a bit and depending on the rate of turn one or more spoilers on top of the wing are raised, and flaperons are used on some planes. The key thing to notice is how much stuff moves when going slow versus how little movement it takes at the higher speeds during cruise.

Another fun thing when sitting in back during takeoff is to watch the wingtip especially on larger aircaft. Put your head against the seat so it doesn't move and align the wingtip with a speck of dirt on the window. As you gain speed down the runway you can see the wingtip gradually flex upward as with wing produces lift. Then when the nose is rotated you really see it flex and when it gets to the top you feel the mains leave the ground.

---

I took my aerobatic training in an Extra 300. I especially recall learning how to feel the ailerons stalling. Pushing the stick almost all the way to the side (and remembering to tense my neck first so my head didn't slam into the side of the canopy) and then working it back and forth feeling for that subtle rumble in the stick as the aileron stalled and then backing off just a bit. Yes, it rolls very fast.
 
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Old 08-25-12, 06:49 AM
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TG, I remember the test flight of one of the A-3xx's. Pilot pulled up, computer pushed down...computer won. What a tragedy. Pilots need the last say.
 
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Old 08-25-12, 10:15 AM
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Speaking of airplanes, I watched a B-17 land at KBLM yesterday. It was really cool to watch. I took a bad cell phone video of it. I don't think it is worth sharing. Hopefully I will catch it taking off on Monday.
 
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Old 08-25-12, 11:17 AM
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I was at Wright Pat for a tour with my school class...maybe around 1970? (the father of the family that bought our old house was a KC-135 Navigator)

There were probably 20-30 kids crawling around in the KC (old planes stink btw)....when we heard a siren and all our escorts said just stay in the plane for right now. After a few minutes they said we could come out to watch. Ever seen a bunch of B-52s take off on an alert drill? Wooooo hoooo!

Gotta love the BUFF.
 
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Old 08-25-12, 11:47 AM
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Talk about wings that flex taking off. The buff is near the top of the list. There are some videos online taken looking down the runway. I swear the tips must rise 30 feet from standstill to take off. Really cool.

I remember being at Ellsworth in South Dakota one cold, windy day in late November. I had the most fun riding on the wing landing gear as the wind gusted and the wing flew upwards. During the calms it was close enough to the ground to climb on but you'd better have a good hold by the time the wind picked back up because there was no getting down until the next calm. I don't know which is more amazing. The flexibility of the wing or that it generates enough lift in a 30-40 knot wind to make it rise.
 
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Old 08-25-12, 01:22 PM
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Droo, similar experience when I worked at ATL. First landing of the SST there. I was working on the tarmac...semi foggy/overcast day, so we couldn't see it until it broke through on final. I was used to 747's tristars, DC10's....this thing was so small in comparison. I was expecting close encounters, I guess.
Working in ORD, watching 747's crab in due to cross winds was amazing! Looks like they started in Milwaukee Wind was so hard sometimes, by the time their nose gear touched, they were at taxi speed.
 
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Old 08-25-12, 02:33 PM
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There is an SST on display at the USS Intrepid museum in NYC. Definitely unimpressive.

Larry, were you talking about Air France 447 the A-330 that went down a couple of years ago? I remember hearing the cockipit recording just prior to the crash and concluded that I would never fly Air France. The initiating failure was a iced pitot tube and the autopilot kicked off. From hten on it was all pilot error as the crew argued among themselves about who was in control and what action to take.

Basically the senior pilot was on a rest break and when the plane switched to manual control the most junior pilot took control. He received a stall warning, dove the plane, cleared the stall and leveled off. There was another stall warning and he tried to climb!! and that's when the crew lost control. From there he passed control to a more senior co pilot but it was too late. I distinctly remember disagreement voiced among the 3 pilots about how to regain control of the aircraft.

I tried to find the audio again on YouTube but I think it may have been removed. I know both AirFrance and the French avaitoin authority objected to it's release saying it was disrespectful to the pilots.
 
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Old 08-25-12, 02:50 PM
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I think the one on display at the Smithsonian in DC is impressive. I'm heading up to NY and can't bring myself to pay the fee to see the Shuttle Enterprise in it's new home after seeing it at Udvar Hazi. And by the way Discovery is even better than Enterprise. I really enjoyed studying all the burn lines that let you see how the air flows around it during reentry.



And, I was amazed at how "not smooth" sections of the Shuttle are. Many biggillion dollars and it literally has a quilt with patches on the side. I do not remember seeing stuff like that on Enterprise.

 
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Old 08-25-12, 04:53 PM
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Enterprise was used as a trainer. It never went into space. So they never had to patch any holes in it.

KBLM is a small airport that I work next to. It is mostly small single engine props that fly in and out of it. The did add small jet aircraft a few years ago. The B-17 was awesome to see. Certainly bigger than those single engines, but much quieter than the jets.
 
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Old 08-25-12, 05:35 PM
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One plane that always surprises me is the F4 Corsair of WWII & Korea fame. So much power and yet so quiet. Everyone looks up for the Mustang running up and taking off but you hardly hear the Corsair then the Texan/SNJ/Harvard by comparison sounds far more impressive with roughly 1/4 the horsepower. Then you hear an F-15 with the burners on and it puts everything into a different, deafening perspective.

15+ years ago at the Sun-N-Fun fly-in in Lakeland, FL there was always a T6 or Grumman Albatross that would go out every morning on "dawn patrol" and circle the airport with the props set to beat the air into submission and wake everyone up.
 
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Old 08-25-12, 07:47 PM
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The 299 the plane that almost wasnt. ( B -17)

My favorite. Im with Droo. My all time favorite. " Go Boeing"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXal59kqJMo&feature=player_embedded#!
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 08-25-12 at 08:25 PM.
  #16  
Old 08-25-12, 08:25 PM
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ALTHOUGH LATE IN THE WAR THE P 51 IS MY NEXT FAVORITE PLANE. " CADILLAC OF THE SKY"
<br> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GliGOk-AVk0&amp;feature=player_embedded#!
 
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Old 08-26-12, 04:16 AM
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There's only been two planes, IMO, that changed fighting in the air in their infancy. P51 Mustang..phenomenal. And the A10 Thunderbold/Warthog. There are others, obviously, but these are my favorites.
 
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Old 08-26-12, 05:12 AM
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Larry.....though I like those 2 very much....let's not forget the P-38.
 
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Old 08-26-12, 07:33 AM
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The Military Channel has blessed the P-51 as the top fighter of all time. That was most certainly true in the European Theater. Much depends on the criteria
used.

In my opinion the often overlooked F6F Hellcat is a close second,at least in terms of dominance. In the Pacific Theater the Hellcat was responsible for more than 75% of the enemy kills. They had a 19:1 kill ratio.
 
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Old 08-26-12, 10:44 AM
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I probably have mentioned it, but my Dad was an Aircraft Machinists mate in the Navy during WWII in the Pacific theater. His group moved from island to island as the front moved closer to Japan. For the most part they were on uninhabited islands. Mostly R&R on PBY's, sew them up, shellac them and send them back. But at the advent of the P51, he told me of the pilots and how they would not leave their aircraft except to go to the mess hall and bathroom. They ate, slept, and congregated under their wings. Nobody touched the Mustang without the pilot watching. It was like personal property to them.
 
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Old 08-26-12, 10:55 AM
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Here is a short clip.

I tell you what... If I was the enemy and I saw this thing flying at me I would of just surrendered...LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duYNiCrfAvQ&amp;feature=player_embedded
 
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Old 08-26-12, 11:07 AM
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I think a lot of people forget that engines like the Merlin were really high strung race engines of their day. They sounded great and made a lot of power but at the cost of reliability and longevity. I knew someone that has a P-51 and he budgeted that the engine will need a top overhaul about every 25 hours. He usually did takeoffs, climb and cruise at reduced power settings. Without armament and drop tanks it still performed well at partial power and it greatly increased the life of the engine. I think he kept the manifold pressure below 50 inches and only did that when taking off.
 
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Old 08-26-12, 11:32 AM
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Along the same lines that Pilot mentioned my daddy, who was a ground crew member in a P-38 squadron, told me they had a wire across the throttle for a stop. If the pilot pushed the throttle past this stop, breaking the wire (called war emergency power), the plane was grounded until the engine was completely overhauled.

Remember too that the RR "Merlin" engine was originally rated at about 1,000 horsepower but later refined to a maximum of about 2,500 horsepower. You don't do that without severely stressing some parts.
 
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Old 08-27-12, 08:04 AM
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Here is a interesting article I read in the online paper.

$2200 for a 1/2 hour ride in a P 51???? Must be the fuel.......LOL

http://www.app.com/article/20120822/...tarting-Friday
 
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Old 08-27-12, 08:30 AM
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Wonder how they modified it to a 2 seater.....seems like it would have to be pretty darned cramped!

Info on the P51 North American TP-51C Mustang - The Collings Foundation

Wow...I looked at the interior pics.....look at what they sit in/on! My butt would be numb in 5 min.
 
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Old 08-27-12, 09:31 AM
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The back seat in the C model is downright spacious and has enough instrumentation for dual training. The D models that you see most often are really cramped and I don't recall there being instruments and I'm trying to remember if there were even pedals. Just meant for short joy rides only.
 
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Old 08-27-12, 05:36 PM
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I saw the B-17 take off today. Very cool. I forgot to bring a better camera with me. Maybe next year!
 
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Old 08-27-12, 07:18 PM
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I have four favorites and built old stick models of each - P51, P40, P38 and the B25. Some were for show and flying and others were just to look at.

The Mustang certainly turned WWII around when it became the escort for the bombers.

I always thought the P40 (Flying Tiger) were just cute and interesting and did not have the effect that I discovered later. Years later, I was in Kun Ming, China, that way a key base for the Tigers in southern China and Burma in WWII. When in that part of China, because I was an American, I got a royal and respectful treatment because of the Tigers. Even at a national park/historical site there for the 18 different ethnic groups that live 24/7 in their typical routine on a 6 month for each group in the area, I got a free admission and a personal guide.- just in a small, very cosmopolitan city of 2,000,000 in China. They certainly did appreciate the help of the U.S. in their war with Japan after Japan invaded the country.

I did get to see the first two B1 bombers (the 3rd was never flown) while working on rocket test stands (with security clearance) on the ridges/outcrops around Edwards AFB and we used our surveying transits (used to determine details and condition of the stands) to watch the drop-nosed SST B1s touch and go, among other very strange secret planes. The division of the company I worked for made the Saturn F1 engines, H1 and J2 engines for the space program and later got a chance to walk around and view the "ill fated" B1 bombers that were replaced by the B1B's. The B1s were also not that impressive close-up. A few years later, I was at an an airshow (walk-through of a B52 with the set of bomb racks) and then later was at McDonald's in Hampton, VA and a B1B did a flyover and pulled up to leave and cracked the windows, which was scarey.

I have been very lucky to be in some strange situations.

Dick
 

Last edited by Concretemasonry; 08-27-12 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 08-27-12, 07:34 PM
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I have been very lucky to be in some strange situations.
Well...I'd have to agree with you Dick. You remind me of the husband of a couple my Ex and I used to know. He was a teen during WWII and his family was very wealthy...possibly royalty (is that the word?) His father was a Baron and a "Von". He grew up in a "schloss" which was occupied and upgraded by the Army near the end.

His stories (never doubted a word) were the stuff of novels.

Same with the guy I met in Saipan who chucked it all as a successful lawyer in LA and bought a sailboat and went West...and West...and South and and and.


I was in some weird stuff myself in my Navy career and don't regret a minute of it. Not so much as an expert...but hey...I was there.
 
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Old 08-27-12, 08:11 PM
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Concretemasonary and gunguy you stink.... Geez I get excited starting a Chevy every morning. Does that count????...

Uggg..... I wanna have more stories then Walt Disney.... Umm!! some day I will be like you guys..
 
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Old 08-28-12, 04:54 AM
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Geez I get excited starting a Chevy every morning. Does that count????...
Nope, it's got to be a Ford, preferably a flat head V8
[can you tell I favor the blue oval over the bowtie?]

The more you've been around, the more tales you have - only problem is the more you've been around the older and more wore out you are
 
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Old 08-28-12, 02:24 PM
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I have reminisced about things I have done. None gallant or dashing, and none in far away places like you guys, but still unique. Thought about writing them down, but then who'd care in 20 years?
Nothing gets your day started better than a good cup of coffee and the sound and feel of a Cummins under the hood. Dodge makes it....Cummins shakes it. Power, authority, no sick days, and mine has 412,000 miles on it.
I don't know who mentioned a You Tube video the other day, but it got me hooked on plane crash videos.......all day.......gee, you'd think I'd get tired of it.
 
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Old 08-28-12, 02:50 PM
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Who'd a thunk I would have gone down hill in the last 40 yrs? In '74 I had a '65 LeMans convertible with a 389 transplant engine. In '75 I had a '67 GTO with a 400 that I completely rebuilt. In about '77 I had a '71 Gran Prix with a 400 that I had massaged and a Turbo 400 that I had also touched a bit.

I loved that GP......power everything and I surprised more than a few hot rodders. Just like my Dad did with his 455 Grand Ville.

Now I drive a 2004 Suzuki Verona.....

I think I'll go shoot myself.....lol.
 
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