A Moral Dilema - Fraudulent Return?

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  #1  
Old 12-11-13, 01:17 PM
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A Moral Dilema - Fraudulent Return?

My son is having a moral dillema... what better place to turn too!!

He needed to change the locks on his doors. Couldnt get the old locks rekeyed at a late hour so instead bought the same ones and replaced the entire locks. He told me he was going to repackage the old locks and return them in the boxes from the new locks.

I told him that is borderline fraud he holds firm that it is not since they are in working order (in service for 3 months) an exact match of the new locks and were purchased at the same store.

So is this fraudulent or not? Could you do this in good concious?
 

Last edited by mummy; 12-11-13 at 01:33 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-11-13, 01:23 PM
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Since they were installed for 3 months - no way are they still new! It's not like they sat in the box unused for 3 months.
 
  #3  
Old 12-11-13, 01:26 PM
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Keep the opinions coming, good or bad, I plan to print them all out for him!
 
  #4  
Old 12-11-13, 01:26 PM
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Yes, wrong. I had a customer that expected me to do things like that and I refused. One of the reasons why Home Depot started a rental service was people who needed a ladder or tool and would buy it then return after use. Had the previously mentioned customer actually suggest that when I needed a ladder longer then I carried on the truck. Rented the ladder and ate the cost. It amounts to renting something and not paying the rental cost plus screwing the person who thinks he is buying a brand new item. Just ask the people who own clothing stores about this. See how angry they get on this subject.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 01:33 PM
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It depends on the stores return policy period... The receipts are dated....
 
  #6  
Old 12-11-13, 03:04 PM
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I agree it is wrong to return locks that have been used for 3 months. Ask your son this question if you went to a store and someone sold you something labeled as new and later you found out it was used wouldn't you feel outraged that someone had done that to you.

Not naming names as this happened many years ago but I bought a desktop computer at a well known store and also a well known brand and months later found out I had bought a poorly refurbished computer that was sold as new. It wasn't right for the store and the manufacturer to pull that scam and it isn't right for your son to pull a scam on an unsuspecting store and perhaps another consumer who might get the product.

By the way the store and manufacturer are still in business but lost years ago in a class action lawsuit. To this day those who remember how they were treated probably are avoiding the brand and that store as I am. Doing something like that can give whoever you are a bad reputation that stays with you for life.
 
  #7  
Old 12-11-13, 03:56 PM
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Its flat out stealing! Simple as that. No questions. No borderline.
 

Last edited by Norm201; 12-11-13 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 12-11-13, 03:56 PM
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It depends on the stores return policy period... The receipts are dated.
Just because you can do something doesn't make it right.

Mummy, ask your son how he would feel if he bought a car as brand new then found out it had been driven three months with the odometer cable disconnected.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 04:05 PM
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Hedge and Ray hit the points I would make. Let's see, I seem to remember a good rule for situations like that. Something about do unto others.....?
 
  #10  
Old 12-11-13, 04:09 PM
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No... The stores do not repackage stuff and resell it as I know it... Stuff not in original package gets sent back to the vender. The store gets a credit and or new items....

I returned lots of stuff I used at times... Some policys are no questions asked...

Costo for example has a return an item any time for any reason...period...Some electronics are 90 days but other things there is no limit in time AFAIK..
 
  #11  
Old 12-11-13, 04:20 PM
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If the store is ok with 3 month old returns, then it's fine. Otherwise, here is what I would suggest. Now that it is no longer a late hour, he gets the 3 month old locks rekeyed. Then he returns the locks he just bought if the return is according to the store's return policy. If he needs to rekey locks like this in the future, he should get one of those kiwkset locks that are easy to rekey or get a set of tools and some tumblers to do it himself.

By the way, how much did the new locks cost vs the cost of a rekey? I'm guessing less. So maybe he should just eat the cost of the new set as the cost of getting rekeyed.
 
  #12  
Old 12-11-13, 04:21 PM
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Great stuff, when I lay it on him he wont have a foot to stand on.

My son was using the return policy loophole excuse with us.... kind of like "what difference does it make if I return in 1 day or 90 days later if its within the return policy".Another one he had was "the reason I want to return it does not matter... I tried them and dont want them!!!"

Either way lots of folks thinking the same way his father and I were thinking!! thank you.

If the store is ok with 3 month old returns, then it's fine
Yes, but he intends to use the packaging from the newer locks. And assuming the old locks would have different serial numbers and key codes than those listed on the packaging. Thats the grey area.
By the way, how much did the new locks cost vs the cost of a rekey? I'm guessing less. So maybe he should just eat the cost of the new set as the cost of getting rekeyed.
New locks probably around 100 bucks, rekey in our area is probably 15-20 per lock.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 05:07 PM
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New locks probably around 100 bucks, rekey in our area is probably 15-20 per lock.
A locksmith would show up to your house and rekey one lock for $20? Sounds doubtful.

He should not be using the new packaging if it has key codes or anything similar on it. Go get the old lock rekeyed and return the new ones.
 
  #14  
Old 12-11-13, 05:36 PM
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He didn't return the items he bought...same type, style, whatever not withstanding. He stole from the store and the manufacturer.

Case in point...wife bought a $1000 bike and they gave her 10% off (standard policy for return customers). Turned out the bike was a 2011 model but they had it mistakenly priced as a 2013. I went back and said "sure, it's not used, but it's already 3 yrs old. Paying the same price for it as a 2014 doesn't make sense." Got $100 cash back. Still not a good deal IMO.

If you bought a car new off the lot and were told is was current year, even with the minor discount, wouldn't you feel screwed when you found out otherwise?

That "entitlement" mentality is one thing majorly wrong with the country. People don't ask if it's right, just if it's legal or allowed.
 
  #15  
Old 12-11-13, 06:17 PM
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I replaced all the worn lock sets in my house several years back. After I installed them I noticed that they all had paint over spray on them. Exactly the situation proposed. If this had been in a clients house and they objected to the install, I would have to charge to change them out again. If I had bought them, I would have had to eat the re-install. Ask your son, how he would feel if at work, the rules changed mid-stream and that he would have to forfeit his pay for the time he already spent to correct someone else's error....Then ask him why certain things cost so much.
 
  #16  
Old 12-11-13, 06:32 PM
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Theft by deception. Hang him by his thumbs.
 
  #17  
Old 12-11-13, 06:51 PM
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drooplug: Go get the old lock rekeyed and return the new ones.
Another grey area!! He has installed the new locks and they have been in service for a few days. He has opened all the hardware. Presumebly knicked up the screws while tighting etc.....

They are functioning as they should but they arent techincally new anymore. I wouldnt want those locks if they were put back on the shelf either.

Oh well... I agree with the consensus... mother and father win!
 
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Old 12-11-13, 07:57 PM
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Oh well... I agree with the consensus... mother and father win!
I disagree... Im the only one because I am your sons age I am sure... The others here may be of the older generation...

Us young folk see thinks different....

They are functioning as they should but they arent techincally new anymore. I wouldnt want those locks if they were put back on the shelf either.
Again if you returned them they would not go on the shelf. They go back to vendor and store gets credit or new ones...

I worked for big orange for a short stint. And other stores as a youth...The consumer is always right...!!!!!
 
  #19  
Old 12-11-13, 08:28 PM
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Mike, I have seen LOTS of items that had obviously been returned and placed back on the shelves. It is obvious when a blister pak has been taped or stapled back together. It is obvious when a cardboard box has torn edges from the factory tape having been removed. Far too often I have found such returns to be missing parts so now I simply refuse to buy anything that has obviously been opened and then returned.

Also, whenever I return something I am ALWAYS asked if there was anything wrong with it. When there are items missing from a re-packaged item it tells me that the person who returned the item LIED when asked that question.

No doubt about it, returning the locks as new IS WRONG. Now if the person returns them and states up front that he simply didn't like them it MAY be a different story but in that case if buys the exact same model then he is LYING about not liking the product.
 
  #20  
Old 12-11-13, 08:47 PM
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No doubt about it, returning the locks as new IS WRONG.
The OP never stated he was returning as new... The Son was just returning them within his 90 day period...I dont care new or not....Used .. installed... whatever...!!!

Its up to the store to re shelf or send back to vendor...

If you get something at the store reshelfed as new and its missing something or not new its because of the incompetent people working there that dont know what they are looking at....They made the wrong decision to not send it back to the vendor as part of thier return policy...

Instead they re shelf and put tape on the package to seal it up...

Thats part of the managers reduce shrinkage plan...!!!!!
 
  #21  
Old 12-11-13, 11:21 PM
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I was recently at big orange myself and bought a medicine cabinet cheap enough for our bathroom remodel we need to do to introduce a grab bar shower that is better than the tub we have for my aging mom. I liked the medicine cabinet but back it went because it had no mirror, not a problem for me but for my mom yes.

The cabinet though I think had been returned before as the box was slightly opened. Not really a problem for me as it was in its original box and I could see that nothing was missing otherwise I would have never bought it. I quote now mummy
Yes, but he intends to use the packaging from the newer locks. And assuming the old locks would have different serial numbers and key codes than those listed on the packaging. Thats the grey area.
As I see it no grey area but outright theft and the store should not take back locks that obviously have been installed and are obviously different from what is in the box. Personally I like big oranges return policy of 90 days as it gives you enough time to return things you never use or you open and realize it is the wrong thing.

Some things though should obviously never be returnable and that is lock sets that have wear on them or are missing parts or not in their original packaging. Blister packs that have been opened and are now no longer able to be sold unless the item is defective and the list goes on. To stop some of these bad practices of returns though stores like big orange should have a restocking fee beyond a certain date to try to thwart bad customers from pulling scams like this.
 
  #22  
Old 12-12-13, 03:17 AM
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Tell your son the new locks he bought had previously been on someone else's door for 3 months, returned to the store ....then he came along ...thought he was buying new ones and are now on his door...

How does that make him feel??

And people wonder why the cost of goods keeps rising
 
  #23  
Old 12-12-13, 05:44 AM
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I am in fact working now for a home improvement store chain (not one of the big boxes, but a local who must compete). Yea, we take back most anything, and yes it usually goes back to the factory as a defect (only if we're sure it can be taped neatly and is fully functional do we put it back on the shelf). BUT, it's still wrong and we can almost always tell if it's been used or abused even if we don't argue the point. Of course we all know that this increases the cost for us all. Don't think for one moment that the store or manufacture eats this cost. It gets past on! The past few months almost all products have had a price increase. For the most part nothing has changed in terms of manufacturing cost or raw material cost. Overhead has not changed signifuicatly. We attribute it towards consumer dishonesty and fraud. And the kicker is our store has little customer fraud by comparison to the big box stores.
 
  #24  
Old 12-12-13, 04:09 PM
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My son wanted you to know that he has seen the errors of his ways and have decided to keep the old locks as spares or maybe sell the used on ebay or craigslist. The fact that the key codes are different made him realize it was kinda sleazy to do.
 
  #25  
Old 12-12-13, 05:23 PM
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Home depot reshelves items all the time. That's why they have the sorter bins at the return and they ask you if there is anything wrong with it. I see things reshelved there all the time.

I remember a time when you needed a receipt to make a return and it had to be for a good reason. The big box stores don't require that and they don't care to. If this type of behavior with using and returning is a problem, it is up to them to remedy it. However, I doubt that it is.

I recently purchased a 4 pack of folding chairs from Amazon. I need them for dinne ron Thanksgiving. The chairs are awesome. When cleaning up the house, I noticed that one of the chairs didn't have a foot on one of the legs. I contacted the manufacturer to cash in on the 10 year warranty, but they did not respond. So I contacted Amazon in the hopes they would help. They sent me four new replacement chairs and told me that I could do whatever I wanted with the 4 I already had. These companies don't have a problem making money.
 
  #26  
Old 12-12-13, 06:10 PM
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They sent me four new replacement chairs and told me that I could do whatever I wanted with the 4 I already had. These companies don't have a problem making money.
Of course. It's not worth the expense in shipping or repair. For those companies that do not pick up warranty repair shipping know that in most cases consumers won't bear the cost either.
And they pass along all the expense of defective or returned goods to the consumer. The store will almost never take a loss.


[QUOTE]My son wanted you to know that he has seen the errors of his ways and have decided to keep the old locks as spares or maybe sell the used on ebay or craigslist. The fact that the key codes are different made him realize it was kinda sleazy to do.[QUOTE]





Glad to hear his decision. I suspected as much. He was not trying to be dishonest, but just needed the slight push to see the moral side of things. And to boot, I'll bet he will feel good that he did not compromise his name, morals or conscience over a small amount of money.

I've always said that if a person wants to be dis-honest then go for broke and go for the big money. At least you'll be remembered for having courage instead being thought of as petty thief.

Just a side note: We sell nuts, bolts and screws individually or by the piece (just as the big box stores do). Most customers complain to me at the cash register at the high cost (18 for a screw, for instance). I sympathize with them and tell them yes it is expensive , but we're paying for the privilege of buying in one's and twosies. That usually makes them feel better.
 
  #27  
Old 12-13-13, 12:50 AM
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Glad your son saw the error of his ways, I figured he would it just takes a little nudge in the right direction sometimes.

I am glad you brought this up though Mummy as it sheds light on bad practices that some companies do that should really stop as we all pay for it in the long run. I forget what part I bought online now from a well known place most people shop in the store and online.

I do remember though the part I received a washing machine agitator top piece. Certainly not what I had ordered though and the person who I called at the parts department just said keep the part. Of course that means the stores cost go up a bit because of stupidity and lack of care from the employee. Your cost then goes up a bit the next time you buy something from that retailer.
 
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