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To moderator: Discussion of freon is legal, whatever people do is their choice.

To moderator: Discussion of freon is legal, whatever people do is their choice.

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  #1  
Old 07-03-14, 07:34 PM
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To moderator: Discussion of freon is legal, whatever people do is their choice.

I don't think it is illegal to discuss charging and checking freon levels.
Automotive freon R134 is for sale in every autoparts store.
Recently harmful R22 was changed to R410, which is for sale on internet to everybody.
Manuals HVAC are for sale to everybody, so what is point of the rule not to discuss freon here? There are hundreds of articles on internet about charging etc.
 
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  #2  
Old 07-03-14, 09:41 PM
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We are moderators here. We are given a set of guide lines to follow and that's what we do.
The administrator(s) of the board set the policies and guide lines that we follow.

I'm going to bring this post to the attention of the admins. so that they can address it directly.
 

Last edited by PJmax; 07-04-14 at 11:03 AM. Reason: removed my request
  #3  
Old 07-04-14, 07:12 AM
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Well here is the sticky regarding that...

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ai...ng-your-c.html
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 07-04-14 at 08:36 AM.
  #4  
Old 07-04-14, 08:07 AM
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It's illegal to handle refrigerants without a license or the appropriate recovery equipment, right?

Kind of like sharing tips on how to pirate software isn't illegal, so but it's okay to do it on a public forum, because whether you choose to follow through is a matter of personal choice.
 
  #5  
Old 07-04-14, 08:25 AM
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Well actually, it's not OK to share tips on illegal activities like pirating software on THIS forum. Those posts can and will be deleted.
 
  #6  
Old 07-04-14, 04:07 PM
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I can go down to Walmart and buy all of the R134a I can carry without a license.
 
  #7  
Old 07-04-14, 04:16 PM
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But you can not buy R-22 without an EPA cert.
 
  #8  
Old 07-04-14, 05:10 PM
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But you can not buy R-22 without an EPA cert.
But you can R410 and I think that is the OP's argument.

BTW, there is a guy on Ebay selling R22 and he states that you either have to have a EPA cert or you can email him your name, address and promise to sell/give it to someone with an EPA cert. Haha! Ok.
 
  #9  
Old 07-05-14, 10:58 AM
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Very few individuals would ever consider trying to charge their A/C or heat pump system; pressures are discussed on nearly all other HVAC forums; we're NOT giving them any actual hands-on instructions on how to charge a system, & no one worries about them deciding to do something that's illegal for which there is a huge fine; they are warned not to ever do it.

They can lookup all kinds of charging data & there are large numbers of easily accessible videos on the internet on charging refrigerant systems so discussing pressures should never ever be considered as instructions to illegally charge a system. IMO, that is going to unnecessary extremes...
 
  #10  
Old 07-05-14, 11:52 AM
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pressures are discussed on nearly all other HVAC forums
and I'm betting they're forums for professionals. This happens to be a DIY forum, in case you forgot. Pros talking to homeowners.
 
  #11  
Old 07-05-14, 12:09 PM
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There are also plenty of Pro forums where if a regular Joe even asks a question, they get booted immediately, usually with a few rude comments. Every Forum out there has there own rules on topics, politeness, membership, etc.

As I said when this topic came up in a thread. If a homeowner gives info from a report by a tech and wants verification that it's good or bad and what could cause it, that's one thing. When they start talking about "bleeding some off" or measuring it themselves, that's another.

It's kind of related to someone wanting to pull their own meter with the power on. It's illegal in most (all?) locations and just plain stupid to do.
 
  #12  
Old 07-05-14, 02:22 PM
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[QUOTE]As I said when this topic came up in a thread. If a homeowner gives info from a report by a tech and wants verification that it's good or bad and what could cause it, that's one thing. When they start talking about "bleeding some off" or measuring it themselves, that's another. - Gunguy45 Super Moderator[/QUOTE]

I can be agreeable with your quoted statements above.
 
  #13  
Old 07-05-14, 02:28 PM
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Personally, I hate censorship. There is nothing wrong with having or sharing knowledge of doing something, especially something like charging a A/C system. If someone decides to use that knowledge to violate a law, then that's on them not the person that gave them the knowledge.

Al Gore needs to take his global warming nonsense on the road to places like China and quit worrying about what some individual is doing to his A/C system in his own back yard.
 
  #14  
Old 07-05-14, 02:35 PM
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Just to be clear, I mean something like...
Member.... "Is this reading of XXX psi high and XX psi low ok for an outside temp of XX degrees? My inside split is XX degrees "

And a reply such as "No, your high side is too low, you could have X or X problem." would be ok.

Not a reply such as "No, at that temp, pressure should be XXX psi.".

Sorry if my terminology is off, but I'm sure you get the gist of it? Let me know if I need to clarify.

Btw...I'm only one person and only responsible for my own opinion and methods. I may be overruled, but I don't see an issue with what I stated.
 
  #15  
Old 07-05-14, 02:41 PM
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I think another way to put it would be that we are here to help homeowners get professional results with their diy work. We do not give advice for anything that is illegal for them to do [like many refrigerants] or something that is likely to cause harm to them or others.
 
  #16  
Old 07-05-14, 03:01 PM
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In the case of HVAC, it seems to me that it is usually licensed HVAC tradesmen that sometimes get all huffy about sharing knowledge about the trade. Maybe it's just me, but it seems more prevalent in the HVAC industry than most others. I'm really not sure why. Surely they don't feel threatened since the vast majority of homeowners would never attempt to charge their A/C system.

Personally, I do almost everything within reason myself. That is just the way I was raised and we pretty much had to be jacks of all trades to keep the farm going. And I stopped needing a babysitter many many years ago. But in the case of the HVAC system on my home, I will call someone else in to charge the system if I need that. Why? Because although I can get R22 if I need it, it's not worth the trouble. But if I do like to know that the person I call is doing it correctly and not shafting me.
 
  #17  
Old 07-05-14, 03:01 PM
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Personally, I hate censorship. There is nothing wrong with having or sharing knowledge of doing something, especially something like charging a A/C system.
In a public Forum such as this, rules and editing are sometimes necessary. I've been to some forums that are un- or poorly moderated with little or no rules as to posting policy. Many threads degenerate into pi$$ing contests between keyboard warriors.

Just today there was a person promoting their YouTube video of how to run power to a detached garage. The guy didn't have a clue what he was doing. Using the wrong type of cable wired incorrectly with no code compliance at all. Apparently the language was pretty foul as well. My sound is out so don't know exactly. Most didn't see it because it was quickly moderated and moved. The average Joe that saw that may say...hey, thats a lot easier than what those guys on the electrical forum were saying.

As to the specifics of charging an A/C system, to do it correctly and legally, the cost of the equipment alone, even used stuff, should dissuade someone from doing it unless they are in the field. In the military I did all sorts of work that would require certification and licenses to do as a civilian, but I had access to all the proper equipment and safety gear as well as guidance from publications, manuals, and regulations. Kinda similar to here. We have general posting rules and topic specific rules. You can't go to any reputable firearms site and find procedures for modifying a weapon for full auto, though you can find all sorts of other gunsmithing procedures. Why is that? Because it's illegal even if you don't do it yourself. It's called criminal facilitation.

I do understand that some may feel that some rules are overly restrictive, but remember, this site is owned by a very large company and at the Admin/Mod level, staffed entirely by volunteers.

Ok...I guess that was a little long winded.
 
  #18  
Old 07-05-14, 03:29 PM
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In a public Forum such as this, rules and editing are sometimes necessary. I've been to some forums that are un- or poorly moderated with little or no rules as to posting policy. Many threads degenerate into pi$$ing contests between keyboard warriors.

Just today there was a person promoting their YouTube video of how to run power to a detached garage. The guy didn't have a clue what he was doing. Using the wrong type of cable wired incorrectly with no code compliance at all. Apparently the language was pretty foul as well. My sound is out so don't know exactly. Most didn't see it because it was quickly moderated and moved. The average Joe that saw that may say...hey, thats a lot easier than what those guys on the electrical forum were saying.

As to the specifics of charging an A/C system, to do it correctly and legally, the cost of the equipment alone, even used stuff, should dissuade someone from doing it unless they are in the field. In the military I did all sorts of work that would require certification and licenses to do as a civilian, but I had access to all the proper equipment and safety gear as well as guidance from publications, manuals, and regulations. Kinda similar to here. We have general posting rules and topic specific rules. You can't go to any reputable firearms site and find procedures for modifying a weapon for full auto, though you can find all sorts of other gunsmithing procedures. Why is that? Because it's illegal even if you don't do it yourself. It's called criminal facilitation.

I do understand that some may feel that some rules are overly restrictive, but remember, this site is owned by a very large company and at the Admin/Mod level, staffed entirely by volunteers.

Ok...I guess that was a little long winded.
Oh, I understand the reasoning behind it, I just happen to not agree with it. But I'm a rebellious person by nature. For example, I think the seat belt law is atrocious. If I don't want to wear one then I shouldn't have too. I don't want or need big brother looking out for me.

What ever happened to personal responsibility? Nobody wants to accept responsibility for their own actions these days. If some idiot watches a youtube video on shooting a Colt 45 and then blows his brains out because he missed the part about which end the bullet comes out, then that's on him, not the videographer.

Sometimes when you hire so-called "pros" you don't get what you pay for. For example, I have a thread in this forum right now where a professional installed an air handler for me when I built this house. It has a OSB return plenum that has gotten wet, is molding, and needs replacing. Had I known better, I would have made him fix that before I paid him. Now I've got to replace it and I either have to take my chances with another pro or do it myself (although I'm not sure how best to deal with it yet). Point being knowledge is power and the more I have the better off I am.
 
  #19  
Old 07-05-14, 03:40 PM
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Well stated, Vic. (BTW, I'm the one that blew the whistle on the guy running the electrical.)

I had initially promised myself I would not post on this issue but I'm going back on that promise. My time with working on refrigeration systems was long before the regulations of today were placed. I WAS trained in how to do the work and I would not feel comfortable in trying to explain to a DIYer the how and why of adding or removing refrigerant to a system. Add in that regardless of the refrigerant, discharge to the atmosphere IS unlawful and the thought that a DIYer is going to spend a minimum of $1,000 for recovery equipment is simply ludicrous.

Bottom line is that some things are simply not DIY friendly and working on refrigeration systems is one of them. I like the current rules on this forum and if a vote is taken I vote to leave them as they are.
 
  #20  
Old 07-05-14, 03:43 PM
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This whole discussion reminded me of a quote but I couldn't remember the exact wording or who said it until now. I just found it:

The control of information is something the elite always does, particularly in a despotic form of government. Information, knowledge, is power. If you can control information, you can control people.

-- Tom Clancy
That pretty much sums my feelings on it, so I'll leave it at that.
 
  #21  
Old 07-05-14, 03:49 PM
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Oh, I understand the reasoning behind it, I just happen to not agree with it. But I'm a rebellious person by nature. For example, I think the seat belt law is atrocious. If I don't want to wear one then I shouldn't have too. I don't want or need big brother looking out for me.
I used to feel that way about seat belts until a friend pointed out that it wasn't about saving myself. What if...you are in a situation and you have to make an evasive maneuver and because you are not wearing a seat belt you are sliding around in the seat to the point where you cannot make that maneuver? Your car then slides into mine causing me to flip over the guardrail and I die from my car tumbling down the side of the mountain but you stop prior to going off the deep end. Your selfishness caused me to lose my life. Personal responsibility is fine and dandy when YOU are the only one who is possibly affected.


As for your other problem, the improper plenum...that is exactly the kind of information that we DO dispense. If you need surgery do you ask the doctors and technicians every possible question on how and why they do what they do or do you at some point trust their abilities?
 
  #22  
Old 07-05-14, 03:59 PM
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Rules are rules and are there for a reason. And not to be broken. I don't like to stop for red lights, so maybe we shouldn't have any. After all my personal freedom is being hampered by a stop light. You see where this is going? Not everybody can handle responsibility in a safe manner. And yes it is our concern and responsibility to watch out for the other guy. Since this can't be done in a one to one situation the government (big brother) takes on the process be it ever so inefficient. Seat belts? Come on. That's old stuff and we all know it is the proper and correct thing to do. If it bothers you then that's why the Darwin awards were made.

I'm against gun control, but I am for strong gun regulation. I'm against legalized pot only because I don't feel comfortable having my kids or grand kids driven on the school bus by a smoking pot head. No different than alcohol. But I'm not against alcohol but I am for strong anti-driving while drinking. Is this a curb against your personal freedoms? You betcha! But I'll take it.

The only thing I don't like is a no tolerant policy on anything. There is always an exception.
 
  #23  
Old 07-05-14, 04:27 PM
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Sometimes when you hire so-called "pros" you don't get what you pay for.
Point being knowledge is power and the more I have the better off I am. - dahammer
You're Right-on man.
With a lot of so-called pros you don't get what you paid for; & the right kind of knowledge is empowering.
 
  #24  
Old 07-05-14, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Furd
I used to feel that way about seat belts until a friend pointed out that it wasn't about saving myself. What if...you are in a situation and you have to make an evasive maneuver and because you are not wearing a seat belt you are sliding around in the seat to the point where you cannot make that maneuver? Your car then slides into mine causing me to flip over the guardrail and I die from my car tumbling down the side of the mountain but you stop prior to going off the deep end. Your selfishness caused me to lose my life. Personal responsibility is fine and dandy when YOU are the only one who is possibly affected.
Now that is some scenario! But the vehicles I drive all have bucket seats so there isn't much room to slide around. I doubt very seriously my not wearing a seat belt will have any impact on the injuries of occupants of another vehicle. Should we ban motorcycles as well? What about all of the children riding school buses without seat belts? Anyway, that is a different discussion for a different thread.

Originally Posted by Furd
As for your other problem, the improper plenum...that is exactly the kind of information that we DO dispense. If you need surgery do you ask the doctors and technicians every possible question on how and why they do what they do or do you at some point trust their abilities?
Well I thought so too but I haven't had any responses as of yet. And yes, you better believe I'll thoroughly question a surgeon before he operates on me and if he don't like that then I'll find a different surgeon. I ask those questions to establish that trust you speak of. I don't blindly trust anyone, I always verify if I can.


Originally Posted by Norm
Rules are rules and are there for a reason. And not to be broken. I don't like to stop for red lights, so maybe we shouldn't have any. After all my personal freedom is being hampered by a stop light. You see where this is going? Not everybody can handle responsibility in a safe manner. And yes it is our concern and responsibility to watch out for the other guy. Since this can't be done in a one to one situation the government (big brother) takes on the process be it ever so inefficient. Seat belts? Come on. That's old stuff and we all know it is the proper and correct thing to do. If it bothers you then that's why the Darwin awards were made.

I'm against gun control, but I am for strong gun regulation. I'm against legalized pot only because I don't feel comfortable having my kids or grand kids driven on the school bus by a smoking pot head. No different than alcohol. But I'm not against alcohol but I am for strong anti-driving while drinking. Is this a curb against your personal freedoms? You betcha! But I'll take it.

The only thing I don't like is a no tolerant policy on anything. There is always an exception.
I can buy the "watching out for the other guy" argument on some things like electrical, but not refrigerant. Sorry.

Against gun control but for gun regulation? Hmm, that seems very contradictory to me. I'm a strong supporter of 2nd Amendment rights and it reads "shall not be infringed". I'm not sure what part of that is so hard to understand. I carry a sidearm with me almost ever where I go.
 
  #25  
Old 07-05-14, 04:32 PM
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Absolutely, I agree with you both. Research before the fact is much better than after the check has cleared.

I'm moving this to General Chats and Discussions. It's slipped a bit away from the original premise.
 
  #26  
Old 07-05-14, 05:36 PM
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I carry a sidearm with me almost ever where I go.
And that's the kind of thing that scares me. I like all my neighbors, and they all seem very normal, but when I think that most likely 75% or more have a gun on the premisses and then I think about some of the crazy things they do and say and how most people tend to fly off the handle if things don't go the way they think it should (think road rage). Well that scars me big time.

Pro gun but pro regulation? Not so contradictory as it seems.
1. Detailed investigation if you want a gun.
2. You can only buy it through a state certified and license dealer (no out of state transactions).
3. You must have a license.
4. Mandatory training for both long barrel and hand gun.
5. Minimum 16 years old with adult supervision and 18 years alone.
6. Proof of home security to store gun at home (receipt of locked cabinet rated for guns for instance).

If the above rules were adhered to I would want everyone to own a gun. But then again I think I live in a "perfect" world.
 

Last edited by Norm201; 07-05-14 at 05:48 PM. Reason: usual garmmer and spelling errors
  #27  
Old 07-05-14, 05:42 PM
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Whoa! Several posts since my last response.

As to seatbelts...out here in the Wild Wild West we see newspaper articles every month about people being killed because they were ejected from their vehicle but all the passengers survived because they were belted. Similar stories about M/C helmets. When I rode, I always wore a helmet in town, but if allowed, not on the open road. Similarly, in town here (25-35mph most areas) I don't wear a belt, but on the highways I do.

Bucket seats don't matter when the car is rolling over its roof at 75 mph.

Motorcyclists know the risks and accept them. I don't think I've ever seen a report of a cage driver killed or injured due to a M/C slamming into them. In that case, it affects only the bike rider physically for the most part, though they all leave family and loved ones behind.

I won't even go much into my views on guns. Well, not much beyond...registration, absolutely not...background checks INCLUDING mental issues, absolutely yes.
 
  #28  
Old 07-05-14, 05:57 PM
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Security locks, absolutely not, unless you deem it necessary or in the presence of children. We don't need regulations for common sense. A locked away gun is worthless as warts on a frog's butt. Be safe, be sane, protect the children.

License the person, not the gun. It is a direct route to confiscation otherwise.

The gun is the "tool", the person is the "weapon".
 
  #29  
Old 07-05-14, 06:07 PM
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I think we may need to let this whole thread go away. Not because of responses or anything, but because it's far beyond the scope of this venue, and I'm as guilty (maybe more so) as anyone else.

Thank you for understanding and not posting anything else. I don't want to have to close it.
 
  #30  
Old 07-05-14, 06:08 PM
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Close it. We're not going to change our protocols regarding freon.
 
  #31  
Old 07-05-14, 06:15 PM
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This website is offering a product. That product is good DIY information. The information that was removed was not good DIY information. It is not removed from this website because the information was deemed unsuitable for the masses. It was deemed unsuitable for the product this website is offering.

Seatbelt laws make sense because every time someone is injured because they don't wear their seatbelt, it costs me money.

BTW, this forum is an excellent one. Largely because of how well it is moderated to keep all the garbage off of it. If it isn't to your liking, you can find somewhere else that is more suitable to you.
 
  #32  
Old 07-05-14, 06:36 PM
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Yeah, I think all that needs to be said already has been. Thanks to all for your contributions....
 
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