Jury Duty

Reply

  #1  
Old 04-14-17, 06:31 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 1,505
Jury Duty

Had the pleasure to attend yesterday. In MN you are eligible from the age of 18 till you take a dirt nap. You can excuse yourself once you hit 70, when I was there 40 years ago it was 65. I can't mention here what I thought of that being I'm 65. Apparently retirement isn't in their vocabulary.

They called for 5 groups, I don't think there were 20 people there. What I did notice is there were maybe 2 people in the forties, rest were up around my age, lots of grey hair.

Anyone else notice this? Where the heck are all the youngsters?

I did make $50 for my 80 minutes of sitting there. Judge said there were supposed to be two trials but when they realized a jury was ready they decided to settle so home we went.

I'm thinking the lawyers told their clients that there were 20 pissed off people sitting in the jury room, best to not go there.
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 04-14-17, 06:38 AM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 44,041
When I was still working I always got out of jury duty. As an employee it was because I was a foreman and when self employed - I think you always get a pass if requested.

I've been asked twice since retiring. Health issues got me out of it the first time but I served the 2nd time. Since it was federal court I had to drive a good ways and the travel fee way exceeded the actual jury pay. I think it's just property owners that get called in tenn but they might have changed that to anyone with a driver's license.
 
  #3  
Old 04-14-17, 07:30 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 1,505
In MN it's DL, state ID card or if you voted. Little brother has never been asked yet me and my sister have both had it three times now.

Talking to the judge about this he mentioned I won't have to come back for four years, and asked how old I'll be then. When I said 69 he had a good laugh with that.

I know some people are pretty sharp at that age but I sometimes have to think a while over what day it is or what I had for breakfast yesterday. Maybe lawyers like that?

Really wasn't too bad, guys sat and listened to all the women yacking away while we waited.
 
  #4  
Old 04-14-17, 08:04 AM
the_tow_guy's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: SW Fla USA
Posts: 11,575
My wife just got her jury summons yesterday, been several years since she got one. I used to get them EVERY year for about 5 or 6 years, but then they stopped [maybe they made a record that every time I showed up I told them my brother is with the -------- Sheriff's Office and has over 300 DUI arrests to his credit]. Our age exemption here is 70 also, which is a little odd IMHO given the senior population around here. I come across people well into their 80's every day who are still driving, but I guess sitting in a jury seat for an extended period could be a problem. My biggest beef is that when I get called I get no consideration that I have to close my business. That and the 35 miles drive to the courthouse.
 
  #5  
Old 04-14-17, 08:42 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 1,505
Our age exemption here is 70 also, which is a little odd...
Do you mean at 70 they can't be on a jury? Here the form says:

If you are 70 years of age or older, you may serve on jury duty OR you may be excused. Do you wish to be excused?
 
  #6  
Old 04-14-17, 09:06 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,399
I was called three times in as many years but did not serve. The summons were always for King County and I live in Snohomish County, just barely.

I DID get called for my county once. It was to be for a two-week period or one trial. The first day we were shown an orientation film, starring Raymond Burr (Perry Mason) no less and then after some procedural items released at about noon. The second day my group (there were several groups of about fifty each) was sent to a courtroom where we underwent voir dire (the selection process) first with the judge asking if any of us thought we should be excused and then the prosecutor and defense attorneys asking their questions. I got as far as the jury box and then was excused by the prosecutor and told to return to the pool room. Those of us left in the pool room were told we were excused but to call a number after five PM to see whether or not we had to report the next day. When I called the number that evening a recording stated that there were no more jury trials scheduled and thanked us for our participation.

I learned from that experience that NEITHER the prosecution NOR the defense wants a thinking person on the jury. They do not want anyone with any law-enforcement experience or even with any relative in law-enforcement. Same with insurance, if you have any experience in some matter that MAY come up during trial they do NOT want you on the jury. They ONLY want people they can manipulate into "thinking" the way that the attorneys (both sides) want them to believe.

Jury of your peers? Not a chance!
 
  #7  
Old 04-14-17, 10:55 AM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 44,041
My biggest beef is that when I get called I get no consideration that I have to close my business.
When I lived in fla I got excused multiple times because I was a job foreman and me not being there would be a determent to the business. Here in tenn it's an automatic excuse if you are business owner.
 
  #8  
Old 04-14-17, 11:06 AM
the_tow_guy's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: SW Fla USA
Posts: 11,575
Might apply in other counties, I suppose, but not in Sarasota. If I was on law enforcement rotation I would probably be excused, otherwise it's no dice.

The 70 exemption is voluntary. I've got a ways to go.
 
  #9  
Old 04-14-17, 11:15 AM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 44,041
It was in Orange county [orlando] were I got excused 3-4 times ..... and that was in the 1980's and early 90's.
 
  #10  
Old 04-15-17, 04:02 AM
Norm201's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 6,041
Jury selection is a pet peeve of mine.

I think we should have professional jurors. People who have gone to a two year degreed school to learn the basics in law (I don't mean a six week course in training, I mean real education in our law system). Upon completion they are certified to serve on a jury in their state or maybe nation wide. They are educated to the law, not as lawyers but on the basics of law. They get paid a livable wage and are always on call for duty. It's their job.

Suppose you are accused of a crime (any crime be it murder or theft or any trial by jury type crime, never mind if you are guilty or not), would you really want a jury of your peers to judge you? Think about your neighborhood. I don't care how much I like my neighbors, I don't think I would like their prejudice or opinions AND lack of education of the law to judge me. And then think of those strangers who are called to judge you. Seriously?

The vast majority of us do not know the law. We just know about incidents or what we see on TV (which is distorted for the most part). The vast majority of us don't want to serve and don't have the time. Most called for jury duty come with a negative feeling , because they are forced to come. Do you still want that type of person to judge you? And like others have said, many of today's jurors are elderly and may have many illnesses or problems not visible to the untrained eye. Still want a jury of your peers? And how about today's extreme liberal or conservative factions? How does that jury of your peers sound now? And if you're an older person on trial, do you want a young "kid" with who knows what background and education or lack of to judge you? And vice versa for a young person. Do you want an old geezer, set in his ways and stuck with standards of yesteryear as his basis of justice? Boy, that professional taught juror sounds better and better to me.

Lets put it into a context that most of us here can relate to...How about hiring a non-professional to do all your plumbing and / or electrical work. Most people know something about electricity and plumbing. Isn't that good enough?
 
  #11  
Old 04-15-17, 06:05 AM
Marq1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: USA MI
Posts: 2,679
I think we should have professional jurors.
Everybody needs to be on an actual trial just to see how our court process works.

It's not like TV, it's a very confusing process.

I've been on two trials, and although I felt we did the right think, one jury actually had a lawyer and she was the only person that could clearly explain the meaning of the horribly written legal garbage that we were given to interrupt.

In anything remotely complex the average person really doesn't stand a chance to provide a fully vetted verdict.
 
  #12  
Old 04-15-17, 12:33 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,399
As I stated earlier we do NOT have juries of our peers. When the right to trial by jury was first agreed upon it really was a jury of peers, people from the immediate neighborhood of the accused, people that actually knew the accused and people that understood the crime the defendant was accused of.

Today it is exactly the opposite. No member of a jury is allowed to have personal knowledge of the defendant, the crime or in most cases even lived nearby either the crime scene or the defendant. Prosecution AND defense both want a jury ignorant of any facts so they can try to sway the jury towards their (prosecution or defense) position. The thinking person hasn't a chance of getting on a jury unless they hide that fact (of being able to think) from the attorneys.

I am 100% in favor of professional juries. The LAST thing I want is some high school dropout determining my guilt or innocence, no matter what the charge. I do NOT want someone on my jury that is there under duress. I do NOT want a juror that hasn't the ability to understand the law or the possibility that the law I am accused under may not be valid.


Several years ago there was a newspaper article, I don't remember if it was local, about a woman that refused to serve on a jury. She stated that she knew nothing about the case, the law that was supposedly violated and she had several other excuses why she would be a poor juror. The judge cited her for contempt and had her jailed. I discussed this with my friend, Jane, a school teacher with a master's degree. Her opinion was the judge was 100% right and that the woman should stay in jail until she rots. When I asked if SHE would want a juror that didn't want to be in court on her case she didn't reply directly but used the old excuse that everyone needed to participate in the "system" to give it legitimacy.

But maybe that is the point; everyone does NOT participate and for the most part it is because the "system" does NOT want such participation. The people I would be more favorably disposed of having on my jury are the same people that are routinely excused.
 
  #13  
Old 04-16-17, 03:43 AM
Marq1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: USA MI
Posts: 2,679
I do NOT want a juror that hasn't the ability to understand the law
That was the part that really got me, in the jury room we were given a loose leaf binder with the sections of the law for the accused.

It was pure legalize, at least I tried to comprehend, everybody else just glazed over.

Lesson learned, dont ever get into a situation like that, ever!!
 
  #14  
Old 04-16-17, 04:48 AM
Norm201's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 6,041
Furd, thank you for agreeing with me. If only your first paragraph could be true. That was they way it was during the frontier days as our country made its way west.

Marq, we are on the same page, but I have to dis-agree with your remark..."Everybody needs to be on an actual trial just to see how our court process works."

That's exactly the problem. The law tries to have everybody serve. Of course it doesn't work. Not only that but most people don't serve and those that do tend to be called over and over.
 
  #15  
Old 04-16-17, 04:55 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,341
I have served on 3 juries. Two were civil cases , a medical malpractice and a product safety suit and one was criminal. The criminal case was dismissed after just two days of the trial. The bad guy plea bargained.

I guess my experience on a jury is different than what people are saying here. In both cases the judge and his clerk were very attentive to the jury and they made sure that we understood what the law was as it applied to the case. Explanations were given in layman's terms. The medical malpractice case was a very high dollar lawsuit that lasted over a week. Juror deliberations took but an hour.

The jury makeup in the malpractice suit (of those I can remember) -

Electrical engineer (foreman), an author, a school teacher, retired military (me), a military wife and a woman that taught math in a local prison. I suppose none of us were "thinking persons". I was the oldest person on the jury by at least 10 years.
 
  #16  
Old 04-16-17, 05:26 AM
Marq1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: USA MI
Posts: 2,679
I've heard that states have vastly different rules on how cases are handled. That bad example was CA, the second was MI and it was much better as far as getting support.
 
  #17  
Old 04-16-17, 05:37 AM
Norm201's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 6,041
A little off topic, but does anybody watch the TV show BULL? About a psychologist who can manipulate and choose jurors who will sympathize with is client. What's interesting is that it's based on a true person.

http://www.cbs.com/shows/bull/ About half way down the page

Although it's not very true to life it does point out some interesting things about how people see crime. It's also very entertaining, at least for me.

CW...Glad to hear that in some places the system seems to work.
 
  #18  
Old 04-16-17, 06:15 AM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 668
I also agree & have thought so for years, that jurors should be trained, schooled & professional.

The ideal situation would be that there would be enough trained jurors that they can be randomly drawn by computer to serve on any case, & would be anonymous to everyone, even to the judge &/or attorneys, and should be placed behind one way glass so that they remain anonymous & should be restricted from revealing that they served on any specific case.
The reason for this anonymity is so judges, attorneys or the accused could not taint or rig a jury by "buying off" jurors.

I also agree, that while they should serve mostly within a district, state or region, they should be required to serve anywhere, not just in a local (city/county) jurisdiction. They could serve from California to NY or Fla to Washington state.... anywhere. This would again cut down on jury tampering. The key to the process though, would be random picks by computer & the juror confidentially notified by the computer.

This would be a good job for a final two years or the first two years out of law school. These students or greenhorn attorneys, would be a good source of random, anonymous state wide jurors that would constantly change yet have a good working knowledge of the law & the process. Someone that the judge, attorneys nor the accused would generally know.
 
  #19  
Old 04-16-17, 06:31 AM
Norm201's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 6,041
Dixie,

EXCELLENT comments! Can't say any more.
 
  #20  
Old 04-16-17, 10:36 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,341
Who pays for the "professional" jury? My guess is that most criminal defendants are represented by a public defender paid for by the taxpayer. Now we want professional jurors paid for by the taxpayer? How much? $50 an hour plus per diem?
 
  #21  
Old 04-16-17, 12:23 PM
Norm201's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 6,041
Yes, it be paid for by the tax payer. Who pays for the public defender and all other "public" services. With all the other waste in public spending this would be drop in the bucket and yest a worthwhile expenditure. As to how much, I don't know. How about $15bucks an hour. Would you rather slap burgers for that $ or learn something and provide a real service. I said a livable wage. If you go with something like Dixie mentions, perhaps a starting wage for a lawyer in training to devote two years as a pro juror, maybe 35 thou a year?

We'r not talking economics at this point. We talking justice and fairness.
 
  #22  
Old 04-16-17, 02:10 PM
chandler's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 39,968
I haven't been called for jury duty in over 25 years, so shhhhhhhhhhh !!! Will probably get called next week. Wifey gets summoned on occasion, but she enjoys it. So much, she gets summons from the adjoining county , but we haven't figured that one out yet.

I have been on the receiving end of the justice/jury system back 17 years ago through a false accusation resulting in a criminal trial. The DA used the addage of throwing charges at the defendant........one of them will stick. The jury saw right through the matter and deliberated about 15 minutes. It is the most harrowing 15 minutes anyone will ever spend in life. Contrary to the "professional" jury thesis, I am thankful for the local, worker, housewife, types that were on my jury. They looked at the evidence and stopped the process, whereas a "professional" jury would try to evaluate the situation beyond what it really was. The local jury was there for 4 days, where a professional jury would become jaded to the process because they were seeing it day in and day out over a longer period of time. They could become tools of the court so to speak rather than tools of the people.
 
  #23  
Old 04-16-17, 03:39 PM
Norm201's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 6,041
The DA used the addage of throwing charges at the defendant........one of them will stick.
Maybe this tactic didn't work in your case, but if he used it, it must work most of the time. And the jury of ordinary people can usually be convinced.

I've always adhered to the adage that as individuals we are smart enough to choose what is the correct course of action most of the time, but when two or more people are made to make a decision usually one individual can sway all the others, be it right or wrong. The lemming effect! That's why I want formally educated people to be my jury. I'd rather trust an educated person over just any guy off the street.
 
  #24  
Old 04-17-17, 01:28 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,341
I looked up the annual budget for the CT Public Defender's Office. In 2015 it was $65 million. I would bet that professional jury budget would far exceed that.
 
  #25  
Old 04-17-17, 04:45 PM
chandler's Avatar
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 39,968
Of course it would. They pay $15 a day for jurors. They would pay $30 an hour for professionals, and don't even go to sequestering a jury OUch.
 
  #26  
Old 04-17-17, 06:06 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,341
Larry - I don't think $30 an hour would be anywhere near close to what the actual cost would be. That's probably a good salary in the private sector but remember this would be another government bureaucracy. You gotta' add in the cost of the bureaucrats and worker bees that they would have to hire to support the system. The professional jury guy might get $30 an hour but the cost would probably be closer to double that.

In the government it's commonly called "pass through". A little taste here, a little taste there . . . . .
Been there - seen that.
 
  #27  
Old 04-17-17, 06:16 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 1,505
Cheapskates! Up here we get $20 plus I think 54 cents a mile.

I've never given professional jurors a thought but I have to wonder how many jury trials there are in this country in one day. Must be a few.

Called today and now have to call next Monday, oh the stress.

Thanks guys, a lot of interesting posts in here.
 
  #28  
Old 04-18-17, 03:38 AM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 44,041
When I was on a federal jury I think the pay was $20 per day [whether you just showed up and was sent home or stayed all day] I believe the mileage is pretty much standard nationwide. Our local [city/county] are a good bit cheaper at $10 per day.

While jury duty isn't something I relish, it is a neat experience ..... and nothing like TV!
 
  #29  
Old 04-18-17, 05:15 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 1,505
.... and nothing like TV!
It's not like Boston Legal?

Well, I ain't goin' then.
 
  #30  
Old 04-18-17, 05:29 AM
Shadeladie's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,919
In Philly, we get $9 a day!
Where the heck are all the youngsters?
We get a lot more than 20 people showing up, and the majority are young or younger.
 
  #31  
Old 04-27-17, 10:33 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 1,505
LOL -- $9 a day. What, they figure a ten spot is too much?

Called last night, our last week, and they said groups 7 through 13 had to report this morning. After nine call-ins I'll guess there were some fancy comments among all those people.

I find it rather odd a little city like Virginia, MN would need all those jurors in one month, maybe every month. Being curious I'm gonna call in for the next few months just to see how it all works.

Whatever, I'm exempt for the next four years and they can then send all the letters they want when I'm 69, I ain't goin'.
 
  #32  
Old 04-27-17, 02:07 PM
Gunguy45's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 21,019
Our jury duty is $12 a day +$.45 a mile (no receipts required). Since the county is so large, they occasionally get people from waaay up north. 265 miles to be exact. When I got called, there was 1 person from Colorado City who was excused. So that guy got $250 just for showing up 1 day and hanging around til lunch. Not a bad deal. Bet he was hoping to get chosen.

I tried everything, from police affiliations in my past to personal issues to unreliable transportation (not really a lie)...nope, I was number 9. Only took a day and a half, guy was guilty as sin.

Got something like $29 in the mail a few weeks later.
 
  #33  
Old 04-27-17, 04:06 PM
the_tow_guy's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: SW Fla USA
Posts: 11,575
Of course I'm sure you're more used to being in FRONT of the jury than being IN the jury.

Think it's still $15/day here unless it went up since my last call. Wifey's juror number is up in the 200+ so she'll probably just call in on Sunday and find out she doesn't have to report at all. She gets all the luck [married me, didn't she ]

 
  #34  
Old 04-27-17, 05:38 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 1,505
You both mention jury numbers, not sure what that is. Something like my draft number back in 70? My number was 300+ so I was happy about that.

As far as getting out -- I'd guess they have heard every excuse under the sun and then some so it probably goes nowhere unless you have a letter from your doc saying you will die sitting in that seat.
 
  #35  
Old 04-28-17, 12:01 AM
Gunguy45's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 21,019
Depends on the case. Mine was about real estate fraud and the guy put illegal property liens on both a real estate lawyer and a retired Superior Court Judge! If you worked in the real estate business....dismissed, worked for the City or County...dismissed, worked with police in any capacity...dismissed, any family member in any of these fields...dismissed, and on and on.


I probably hosed myself...career military, relatively intelligent and articulate (I like to think), and the big one RETIRED. No job to go to, lived pretty close, clean cut (mostly). Either the prosecution or the criminal (defended himself, big mistake) wanted me I guess.

And we didn't have numbers. There was about 60 of us in a big room watching jury duty videos, and they would come take a group of 20 or so at a time until they got the number they needed. Supposedly all random choices.
 
  #36  
Old 04-28-17, 04:13 AM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 44,041
There was about 60 of us in a big room watching jury duty videos, and they would come take a group of 20 or so at a time until they got the number they needed
That's the way it was when I served on a jury, so many of us where brought into the courtroom, given a short speech about the case and then asked questions from both the prosecutor and defense attorney. If they couldn't get 12 plus alternates out of that group they brought in more to question. Never heard anything about a jury numbers.
 
  #37  
Old 04-28-17, 07:51 AM
Shadeladie's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,919
There's more like hundreds show up everyday in Philly, and they call groups of 35 to 50 for each case.
It's easy to get off, just by what we write on the questionnaire. But there's so many potentials jurors, they have to be able to narrow it down quickly. Depends on the judge and lawyers on any particular case tho. We're assigned numbers also.
There's no mileage paid because we're all able to take public transportation.
 
  #38  
Old 04-28-17, 08:11 AM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 103
Just received my (1st) jury summons yesterday! While I don't necessarily object to being selected, it might prove difficult for me to remain awake during a trial (should I be called). I work 3rd shift and would probably nod off at some point!lol (Wonder if they would reject me being a juror then?lol)
Haven't sent back the questionnaire yet, but I did notice that the term of service lasts for 4 months! Doesn't begin until June 1st....does that mean "there goes my summer"??!!
 
  #39  
Old 04-28-17, 08:26 AM
Shadeladie's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,919
I would think it means something else. Here, it's one day or one trial, and one trial could be as little as two days. It would be a rare trial that would go on for 4 months.
 
  #40  
Old 04-28-17, 08:27 AM
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 668
In Louisiana, Jurors are called from the voting rolls. If you are registered to vote, you can be called. Names are selected randomly by computer & letters are sent to voters at address' from the voter roles.

Its not easy to be removed from the process. If you are 18 & above, it doesn't matter what your status is. If you are a registered to voter, you can be called. It is a strict system here.

Only the judge can release you from the process & that covers very few reasons. Obviously, if you are confined to the hospital & are medically &/or physically/mentally unable to serve, you will be released.
To be clear, you can be released by the attorneys during the selection process if they feel you are biased etc. However, just to call & say that you're 89 years old... aint gonna work in La. You gotta show up & be dismissed by the judge or the attorneys if you are incompetent, etc. Obviously medical conditions can get you released, etc. If you're an attorney that has other cases that week etc... if you're a Dr who can provide a valid reason why you cant be there, you can be released. Just because you are a Doctor or attorney etc, doesn't excuse you from serving in Louisiana. The judge has the authority to dismiss you or make you serve. Its not easy to get out of jury duty here unless the attorneys release you because you are biased, etc.

I was called once & there was about 100 people waiting to be interviewed for 3 cases. One civil & 2 criminal cases. Of those, they got their jurors out of about the first half of those called. I did not have to serve nor was I called back to be interviewed. The 50 or so not called, were sent home. I was told at least one of the cases settled out of court, so that eliminated the need for at least some of us called.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes