Legal advice needed

Reply

  #1  
Old 01-22-07, 07:07 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 172
Legal advice needed

Here is what happened:

6 months ago, I loaned my brother 2,500.00 so he could pay off his debts and not lose his house and file bankruptcy. I wrote him a check for this amount, and on the MEMO line, I filled in "LOAN."

Today, my brother called to inform me he filed for bankruptcy a month ago, and the credit card companies of which he was in debt to, are suing me for 30,000.00

I realize I need to get in touch with an attorney, but which kind? Second, what in the heck did I do wrong here, especially when we are talking about a year's salary penalty for trying to help out my brother.

I need some help since I am in unknown territory.

Anybody have any knowledge of what to do or what is going ot happen or what I did wrong?

Thanks!
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 01-22-07, 07:28 PM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 15,834
"Today, my brother called to inform me he filed for bankruptcy a month ago, and the credit card companies of which he was in debt to, are suing me for 30,000.00." If you are not signed on any of his credit card debt, then you are not responsible. Who knows what he told the credit card companies.

It is possible that the brother stole your identity to get his credit cards. Identity theft is a felony. If your identity is stolen, you may spend months or even years clearing up the damage to your reputation and credit record. In the time it takes to resolve these issues, you may lose job opportunities and be refused loans for education, housing, or a car. Although you have not committed a crime, been late with a payment, or abused your credit, you are the one who would suffer severe financial consequences as a result of identity theft.
 
  #3  
Old 01-22-07, 07:40 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 172
He had the credit card debt, and all other types of debt at the time he asked me to borrow the money, but I do understand what you are saying; that my brother could have applied for those creidt cards under my name and charge things on the approved card, correct?

I surely do not hope that would happen, and I do not think he would do that to me, but does not necessarilly mean it would not happen.

I agree that I am not responsible, and did not do anything wrong. Apparently, my mistake in being nice was writing LOAN in the memo field. This is what the credit card companies seen as the problem and for some reason are coming after me. Could it be because my brother does not have the money to pay them? Is this even a valid lawsuit? How much am I looking into paying an attorney?

This is not what I needed, so please keep the information and advice coming!
 
  #4  
Old 01-22-07, 07:44 PM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
note: I am not an attorney and cannot give legal advice.

The $2500 may be gone via the brothers bankruptcy. You may have to file a claim with the courts against your brother for the cash and hold your breath.
Contact the trustee of your brothers bankruptcy to ask how to file a claim.

the credit card debts; do not fail to respond to the complaint/summons. Failure to respond would allow a default judgement against you and you would then legally be responsible for the judgement.

You need to find out why they are suing you. As twelvepole suggested, you may be the victim of identity theft. Regardless of why they believe you are responsible for the debt, DO NOT IGNORE THE COMPLAINT/SUMMONS.

a question for you though, did you co-sign on any of the credit cards or were you a joint account holder of any of the card accounts?
 
  #5  
Old 01-22-07, 08:17 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 172
I do not share accounts or anything with my brother nor did I ever co-sign for anything he ever applied for. He paid the 2500.00 back to me in payments, so I did not lose out on that, I am just afraid that I will be losing out on $30,000.

I will be sure to check my mail daily with regards to the advice on the summons.

I strongly believe this is not an identity theft case and I would like to lean why it matters how I filled out the MEMO field???

I thought that was just for reference for when I balanced my checkbook. When my brother called earlier to inform me of all this great news, he really emphasized it was because there was a paper trail with the word LOAN on it. I did not realize that lenidng money to your family was a crime, and that is what I am having a hard time getting around to.

What type of an attorney is recommended for this situation?
 
  #6  
Old 01-22-07, 08:32 PM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
so you have not recieved anything to imply you are being sued, correct?

How would your brother know they are going to sue you? What you are saying makes not a lot of sense. They are not going to tell him they are going to sue you (FDCPA regs do not allow this). How would these CC companies even know how to contact you?

Putting "loan" on the check makes no difference. How would the CC companies even know? The check went from you to your brother to whoever he cashed it with and back to your bank. The CC companies would have never seen your check.

Do you know positivley your brother has filed bankruptcy? I suspect he may be looking for you to give him some money so he can "keep them off your back". Call me jaded or whatever but your situation makes no sense without your brother trying to scam you.
 
  #7  
Old 01-22-07, 08:50 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 172
All of this information is just hearsay from my brother, I have not received anything in writing nor have I received contact from the credit card companies or anybody else informing me of this information.

Funny you bring up the scam thing, because he did mention that "there is a way around this." He said if there was 5,000 sitting in his bank account for 6 months, the lawsuit would be dropped (and the CC comapnies would just take their money from the banking account. However, that 5,000 dollars would need to come out of my pocket again, but I am not buying into it and have informed him that I am not going to lend him anymore money.

His wife has wealthy parents and is supposable going to ask them for a loan for the aforementioned reasons as well as keeping me under the radar (not all of us have 30k sitting in the bank!)

Maybe I should search the yellow pages and have an attorneys number ready to roll for when (if I do) receive a summons or notice is a lawsuit. I also bet I can run this by a local firm during a free consoltation and see what the foreseeable future holds.

I do not think it make sense either, but that is why I am coming here for assistance before I pursue lawyers and wrap all of my time and effort into something that may be false. I would hate to think that my brother would do that to me, but time will tell where he got this information, especially is there are regulations against this.

As far as the bankruptcy filing, that is also hearsay. I am not even really sure how I could verify that to ensure he is teling the truth, so all I have to go on right now is his word.
 
  #8  
Old 01-22-07, 08:57 PM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 15,834
So far you have heard nothing from any credit card companies. This is good.

Say, you are the Good Brother Lending Company. You issue a check. You write LOAN on it. Lending institutions also write loan (account) numbers on checks. Neither the Good Brother Lending Company nor any other lending institution that has made loans to the brother are responsible for his credit card or other debts.

If you have not co-signed or put your name anywhere on any of his obligations and he shares no assets with you, then neither you nor your assets should be at risk. That's the mystery. Why are you obligated?

You say, " I wrote him a check." The check was made out to him. He would have had to have deposited in his bank account and write checks to pay his bills or cash the check. How would any of the credit card companies have known about this check or what was written on it. If your bank has gone the way of other banks in not sending you the canceled checks, request a copy front and back from your bank and see who cashed the check.

How would the credit card companies know that you exist and what your mailing address is? There is something wrong with this picture.

"My brother could have applied for those creidt cards under my name and charge things on the approved card, correct?

I surely do not hope that would happen, and I do not think he would do that to me, but does not necessarilly mean it would not happen."

I wouldn't, however, talk with an attorney until I got notice in the mail from a credit card company. In the meantime, you can contact your State Bar Association for a name of an attorney in your area that handles consumer protection issues.
 
  #9  
Old 01-22-07, 09:10 PM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 15,834
"He said if there was 5,000 sitting in his bank account for 6 months, the lawsuit would be dropped (and the CC comapnies would just take their money from the banking account."

This most definitely smells of SCAM!

How could $5,000 sitting in a bank account for 6 months fulfill $30,000 of financial obligations with the CC companies taking their money from the bank account???

Just because the guy is your brother does not mean that you are responsible for his debts. Do not allow the 'blood is thicker than water' thing get in the way of your personal finances and clear thinking. In other words, do not allow your brother to play you for a sucker.

Change your phone number!
 
  #10  
Old 01-22-07, 09:33 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 172
He said that somebody went through his bank account to verify the bankruptcy was valid (or something along these lines) and they came across my check. This was obviously money not earned through income, so my name must have showed up in the bankruptcy search or whatever you call it.

I would then assume as soon as the credit card companies were informed of this, they may have received copies of the debits/credits from his account and seen my name in one of the images of the checkes that were cashed. This is where my personal information could have escaped, but like you keep preaching, I am not obligated for waht goes on with that money, unless I am paying him to do something illegal, which is not the case.

I will contact my State Bar Association and see where that leads me.
 
  #11  
Old 01-22-07, 11:09 PM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 15,834
"He said that somebody went through his bank account to verify the bankruptcy was valid." I don't think so.


http://www.coulsonlawoffice.com/Newsletter.shtml
 
  #12  
Old 01-23-07, 06:33 AM
logcabincook's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Rocky Mountain Foothills
Posts: 549
I wish you luck with this. It does sound like a scam. Anyway with the new bankruptcy laws, it's much harder to file, and much harder to get around the system.

I realize this is after the fact, but I feel I need to say it. We learned never to loan friends or family money. If they need help, buy them a tank of gas or a bag of groceries. We loaned money to very close family members who told us their phone would be turned off any day since they could not pay their bills. Since we answered the phone and heard the voices of bill collectors, we believed them. After two months of this we found out one of the family members was still spending $150 every 3 weeks to have her hair done, and another family member was buying beer with our money. We cut them off immediately and told them why, and we have never spoken of finances since.
 
  #13  
Old 01-23-07, 06:39 AM
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Frozen Tundra, WI
Posts: 304
Something is not right

Something does not pass the smell test, either your brother is knowingly or unknowingly trying to scam you OR he is being scammed and is bringing you into it. As twelvepole said, money sitting in an account would not to anything to settle a debt.

If I had to wager (thank goodness I do not gamble), he has contacted a questionable credit repair company. He has been told that if he gives them his account info AND finds a way to put $5K into that account, all his debts will be settled in 6 months. They asked him where he could get $5K and he gave them your name as a potential source. They then did a “search” and “discovered” the credit card companies were going after you, BUT, if you could see fit to put 5K into your brother’s account (which they now have access to), they would get the card companies off your back. They take the 5K and go away. Meanwhile, nothing is done to repair credit. Of course, this is just a theory… until you actually hear and get legal documentation from the companies that are suing you, I would say there is little to worry about.

Of course it is possible (hopefully not) that your brother co-signed for you (without your knowledge)… in that case, you have issues on your hands (not just civil, but criminal as well).

I would get all the facts from your brother, find out what he did to get this all started (who is telling him this info) and go from there. I am sure it has nothing (zero nada zip) to do with you putting “LOAN” on a check.
 
  #14  
Old 01-23-07, 08:28 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 172
That actually seems realisitic that my brother is being brought into a scam unknowingly over the telephone.

Your theory makes sense because all the hearsay is brought into play and all the pieces of the puzzle fit together. I am going to talk to my brother as soon as possible, to get all the facts in order.

I will let you know what I find out, but until then, please keep the information coming; you have all been a big help so far and I am much more confident that I am not going to be facing some fake lawsuit.
 
  #15  
Old 01-23-07, 11:07 AM
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1
First Things first

Run a credit report on yourself from all three agencies. You don't sound like the kind of guy that does this regularly so you would be entitled to them for free.
You'll probably conclude that your brother is either lying out of desperation or out of greed, thats probably the only dilemma you are facing. You really don't need scores at this point so skip 'em, you've lost enough as it is.
Good Luck!
 
  #16  
Old 01-23-07, 02:23 PM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 110
[QUOTE=Landlord;1112887]Run a credit report on yourself from all three agencies. QUOTE]

You beat me to it, Landlord.

In this situation it is IMPERATIVE to do this at once, to find out once and for all if your brother has been stealing your identity to get credit, which is about the only way what he told you would make any sense.
 
  #17  
Old 01-24-07, 04:44 AM
the_tow_guy's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: SW Fla USA
Posts: 11,517
I'm just now reading the thread and I was hoping before I got to the end that SOMEBODY would have said, "get your credit report". Good job, Landlord and aq_guy! You might casually mention to your brother that you're thinking of checking your credit reports and see what reaction you get; could be educational.

And I vote for "scam". Also, the memo line question is a non-starter in my book.
 
  #18  
Old 01-24-07, 02:25 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 226
Another thing to do:

I don't have the details handy, but you can put an extra level of security on your credit, by requiring that any request for new credit must be confirmed. [I'll see if I can find out about that.]

One more thing:
You could also put a change of address in YOUR name at your brother's address [be sure to check 'Individual Only'], so that if there has been any confusion with a creditor, the mail will come to you.
 
  #19  
Old 01-24-07, 02:29 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 226
Fraud Alert

To check credit:

https://www.annualcreditreport.com/cra/index.jsp

OK, here it is, it's called a 'Fraud Alert'

Quote from the above site:

How do I request a "fraud alert" be placed on my file?


You have the right to ask that nationwide consumer credit reporting companies place "fraud alerts" in your file to let potential creditors and others know that you may be a victim of identity theft. A fraud alert can make it more difficult for someone to get credit in your name because it tells creditors to follow certain procedures to protect you. It also may delay your ability to obtain credit. You may place a fraud alert in your file by calling just one of the three nationwide consumer credit reporting companies. As soon as that agency processes your fraud alert, it will notify the other two, which then also must place fraud alerts in your file.
*****
Equifax: 1-877-576-5734; www.equifax.com
*****
Experian: 1-888-397-3742; www.experian.com/fraud
*****
TransUnion: 1-800-680-7289; www.transunion.com


An initial fraud alert stays in your file for at least 90 days. An extended alert stays in your file for seven years. To place either of these alerts, a consumer credit reporting company will require you to provide appropriate proof of your identity, which may include your Social Security number. If you ask for an extended alert, you will have to provide an identity theft report. An identity theft report includes a copy of a report you have filed with a federal, state, or local law enforcement agency. For more detailed information about the identity theft report, visit www.consumer.gov/idtheft.
 
  #20  
Old 01-24-07, 09:43 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 172
Thanks for the tips!

Something odd happened today, and I wanted to run it by everyone. My parents, other brother and myself all got messages from the credit card lawyers looking for my brother who is filing bankruptcy.

First, is this legal? It sounds like they are calling everyone with my last name to see if we can contact my brother for them.

That seems like invasion of privacy or something is wrong with that, so just wanted to check.

I also found out that my brother has not turned in the bakruptcy papers yet, but plans on doing it by March.

When I spoke with him, his exact words were "since I showed favortism in paying you back your money, and I went delinquent on many other bills, they may see that you loaned me the money and might come after you."

This still seems impossible, but I thought I would get that out in the open as well. Until I see some papers in the mail with a lawyers signature, I do not plan on losing sleep over this thing.
 
  #21  
Old 01-25-07, 12:42 AM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 15,834
Agreed. Get some sleep. Change your phone number to an unlisted number or put it in your dog's name.
 
  #22  
Old 01-25-07, 05:01 AM
the_tow_guy's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: SW Fla USA
Posts: 11,517
I can't see any way, even with an OJ jury, that you have anything to worry about; especially since you've seen nothing official in writing. I wouldn't respond to any unofficial inquiries in any way, shape, or form. I'm not buying the loan/favoritism/etc bit at all. Just curious, but what form was the "message"? Phone, email, mail?

My layman's $.02 worth.
 
  #23  
Old 01-25-07, 07:26 AM
logcabincook's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Rocky Mountain Foothills
Posts: 549
Ya know this reminds me of something that happened to us. We added a family member to one of our credit cards (therefore LEGALLY putting ourself into this situation.) One day we got a call from a collector saying that the family member owed on bill X, and since that person was on our credit card, we could easily pay the bill. We said no, immediately removed the person from our credit card, and told the family member what happened. Collection agency calls us again (those little harrassers!) We said the person had been removed from our credit card so leave us alone.

Problem solved.

My point is that we knowingly put ourselves in the position to be financially responsible for this person's bills. The instant we removed ourselves from the situation, it ended. Based on this experience, your brother's story sounds like a scam scam scam scam.
 
  #24  
Old 01-25-07, 08:52 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bloomington, IL
Posts: 172
The message

was in the from of voicemail on my cell phone. The others were left on home and cell phones.
 
  #25  
Old 01-25-07, 09:45 AM
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Frozen Tundra, WI
Posts: 304
Going out on a limb

Credit card lawyers? Granted, I have never been in that deep (but there was a time, many years ago, when I had some credit card debt I could not afford and got into some trouble), but I was never once contacted by a lawyer for the CC company and no one EVER contacted family members. I really think your brother has given a lot of info (that he should not have given out) to someone posing as one of those credit fix organizations (how else would they have gotten your cell number). While I would not panic, I would take the recommendation to monitor your credit (did he give out Social Security Numbers?) and pull reports now. Change your numbers (if you want to stop getting called) and tell your brother to stop giving out your info NOW. I would ask him to tell you what has prompted this activity (who did he talk to, about what and when) and get all the details you can.

If I am reading what you have told us correctly, your brother has given his bank account info to someone (who?) so they could validate the bankrupcy (makes no sense... since he has not yet filed... and since no one should ever be given that info for ANY reason), the CC lawyers are contacting your for payment, even though bankrupcy has not been filed. Your brother has given out your personal info (cell number, home number, name, who knows what else).

You need to sit your brother down, tell him to stop giving out your info, find out who he has contacted (and who has contacted him) and what he has told them. This may be legit, but it smells of cow pasture on a hot August day.
 
  #26  
Old 01-25-07, 10:56 AM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 15,834
"Smells of cow pasture on a hot August day." Brother's story contains too many conflicting probabilities. "Find out who he has contacted (and who has contacted him) and what he has told them." Good luck.
 
  #27  
Old 01-25-07, 02:46 PM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
Depending on what was said by the attorneys for the CC companies, your brother may have a claim of action against them. The FDCPA would be the place to research that.

It sounds like your brother is simply full of hooey and not paying his bills.

You have not done anything (at least as far as the info you posted) that would make you liable for any of your brothers debt. His story about the preferential treatment deal or whatever BS he wants to give you is just that, BS.

A creditor does not verify a bankruptcy filing or any part of a BK by monitoring the bank account of the person filing. They go to the BK court and get all the info they are entitled to there.
 
  #28  
Old 01-25-07, 05:24 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 226
Another obvious piece of advice:

Do not talk to anyone on the phone without taking notes. Get details and make them wait while you write them down.

May I have your name? How do you spell that? What organization do you represent? What is the phone number? [Important] What number are you calling from?

Ask them exactly what they want, write it down, read it back to them, and get them to confirm.

Then, of course, tell them nothing. You don't have the information available. And agree to nothing. You will need to consider the matter.

Don't confirm anything, not even you middle initial or your address. Tell them you are not in the habit of giving out personal information.

If they threaten you with anything, even just repeated phone calls, document it. Debt collection agencies frequently use very shady practices, assuming, correctly, that most people they deal with will not challenge them.
 
  #29  
Old 01-26-07, 07:03 AM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 155
I'm an atty. Just reading for fun, and I find this. First, making a loan is not illegal or actionable, so forget about that. As far as your brother telling you he paid you back preferentially, there is an action for that. When a debtor (your brother) files bankruptcy, they ask him to show where his payments have been going during recent months. He says he paid you, and he did not pay the credit card companies anything. The law says that he cannot dump all his money paying back his favorite relative's loan and then, file bankruptcy and screw everyone else. So, in that case, the credit card companies (through the trustee) have a right to seek your repayment of amounts preferentially paid to you.

So, your brother knows a little something about bankruptcy. That's what he was saying, whether he understands it that well or not. Now, if anything is to happen about that, it will happen from the bankruptcy trustee and not the credit card companies. So, first, there has to be a bankruptcy.

Second, the amount is rather small. I have serious doubts anyone would mess with trying to recoup from you. Think about it. The attorney's rate is probably $250 an hour. How many hours are they going to put into chasing down whatever small amount your brother re-paid on a $2500 loan? Peanuts are not worth their time.

What is happening could be legit, but:

1. Don't give anyone any money.
2. Don't give your personal information to anyone.
3. If anything bad is going to happen to you legally, you will know because you will be handed lawsuit papers (citation) saying you have been sued and giving you time to hire an attorney and defend. In some cases, the papers are mailed certified mail or posted to your door.
4. Check your credit report. Make sure there are not all kinds of loans in your name that you did not make.

If you are curious about your brother's status. Call the federal district clerk where you live, and they can tell you whether there are any cases involving your brother. In our district, there is an outfit on the internet called Pacer. Pacer accesses the federal records, including bankruptcy, in our district. Maybe it serves yours as well. It is fee-based, but very cheap - like pennies per search. Call the clerk and ask about Pacer or something that lets you search their records from the intenet.

Also, check the state district clerk and county clerk in your county for the same information. A search can be done on your brother's name. You will then see if, and what, suits he has againt him, both civil and criminal.
 
  #30  
Old 01-26-07, 02:20 PM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
Originally Posted by Jeff Matthews View Post
.

So, your brother knows a little something about bankruptcy. That's what he was saying, whether he understands it that well or not. Now, if anything is to happen about that, it will happen from the bankruptcy trustee and not the credit card companies. So, first, there has to be a bankruptcy.
Did you notice the brother claims the CC companies are after the OP to the tune of $30k while the personal loan was for $2.5k? The most, if anything at all the trustee is going to try to get back is $2500 and would not even go for that since this would be just as unequitable as OP being paid back in full first.
==========================================================
they ask him to show where his payments have been going during recent months

===Here, you should clarify the "they" is the trustee for the bankruptcy. The CC companies have no rights or power to do this on their own.
==========================================================
What is happening could be legit,
=======No, it could not be legit. There is no action available to the CC companies to seek repayment from the OP UNLESS there is a BK first, which there isn't. As well, the trustee would not seek a full repayment from OP to the brother due to the inequity of that,as I stated before. The CC companies do not and would not have any rights to the OP's bro's bank account unless a court ordered it. The CC companies have no way to determine OP loaned and recieved repayment of money unless bro told them.
==========================================================


This entire situation smells of scam more than anyhting resembling what a BK court could or would do. The brother is merely trying to squeeze money from the OP by trying to scare him. As you posted, OP should not get too worried until:

1. brother actually files a BK
2. the BK trustee contacts OP

other than that slim possibility, OP should sleep well other than he seems to have a scoundrel for a brother.
 
  #31  
Old 01-26-07, 05:44 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 226
"OP ... seems to have a scoundrel for a brother."

Maybe not, maybe the brother is getting confusing and misleading advice from a shady credit-repair company, as Dave suggested.

The OP doesn't have to disown the brother in order to say, 'No'.
 
  #32  
Old 01-26-07, 06:14 PM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
true but don't forget this from the first post:

6 months ago, I loaned my brother 2,500.00 so he could pay off his debts and not lose his house and file bankruptcy. I wrote him a check for this amount, and on the MEMO line, I filled in "LOAN."

Today, my brother called to inform me he filed for bankruptcy a month ago,
===========

apparently bro did not pay off his debts nor did he file BK like he said he already had.


OP also states he is being told all this from the CC companies or their attorneys., not a credit repair agency or anybody else. He goes on to say the CC companies intend on suing the OP, by their own word.

Sounds like the bro is being deceptive. The only motive I can think of would be to gain more money from the OP.
 
  #33  
Old 01-26-07, 11:16 PM
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 8
I have been working for consumer bankruptcy attorneys for over 20 years and I have to agree with the post by attorney matthews. I might add that unfortunately, credit card companies and their collection activities are often ruthless. They have been known to call family members, friends, even people on the same block that you don't know, supposedly to "verify contact information". I agree that your brother's repayment of the loan could be construed as preferential treatment of a creditor, however, as was pointed out, $2500 is probably not going to raise too many red flags with a trustee.
 
  #34  
Old 01-27-07, 06:36 AM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 155
.... and I stand on my statement that this could all be legit. People often understand half the law, and so they make statements that attorneys and others will say don't make sense. That does not mean the statement was a lie. It means it was wrong.

Also, when someone needs $2500 to pay their debts, they might mean pay the past due portions in order to catch up. So, that's how they guy remains $30,000 in debt. This is certainly a real possibility.

At this point, I agree with most that the situation is not good, but it is way too early to convict your brother of being a thief. The only reason most jump to this conclusion early is because people, by nature, love a good conspiracy. Stick them on a real jury in a real case, and they will change their votes to "not guilty."

Now, that said, that does not mean do something stupid because you want to give the benefit of the doubt. Your brother is bad with money, for sure, but that does not mean he is a crook. But he could be a crook, too. Either way, I wouldn't loan him my money.
 
  #35  
Old 01-27-07, 09:50 AM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
.Jeff Matthews... and I stand on my statement that this could all be legit. People often understand half the law, and so they make statements that attorneys and others will say don't make sense. That does not mean the statement was a lie. It means it was wrong.
===============

You are going to say that the courts will order the bro to pay the $30k? Are you going to say the courts would require the full re-imbursement of the $2500 to the borrower due to the preferential treatment? The first one is not ever going to happen and the second one is very unlikely to happen. If you can show case law proving otherwise, I would be more than glad to retract my opinion.

The situation, AS IS, is in no way possibly legit. UNTIL a BK is filed, the CC companies have no action available to them agaisnt the OP.

When and IF BK is filed, it will be ONLY at the trustees recomendation and the courts order that the OP would be required to pay any of the $2500 loan/ loan repayment back to the brother.

It still does not rest upon the CC companies desire alone.

Remember, OP stated bro told him the CC companies were going to sue the OP for the money. This is not a possibility (well, actually since anybody can sue anybody, it is a possibility in that essence but winning it is not, if defended by the OP). The CC companies have no action available to them now, or after BK is filed. The only action available would be to the BK courts, although it could come at the complaint of the CC companies.
============

the statement was the bro was to use the $2500 (or at least a portion of it) to file BK. The fact he did not abide by his word does make him a liar. No getting around that. Although you may feel the term liar is extreme, then take it simply as a factual statement without any additional negative connotations added. He may have intended to do as he said originally but the fact he did not makes it a lie. It is a fact, at least after the fact.

The $5000 in my account story is one of the biggest loads of BS I have heard in a long time. If the bro does not understand this, I hold no hope for him having a normal life. It goes beyond and logical or sensible explanation. I would rather believe the bro is deceptive rather than this dumb.
============
So, as posted, it cannot be legit. Even if this continues on with the bro actually filing BK, it is highly unlikely to affect the OP.

Also, how would the CC companies have any clue as to wht the OP and bro have done together financially unless the bro told them. The CC companies have no legal claim to the bank accounts statements of the bro. Remember the statement of claiming somebody went through his bank account and found the payments to the OP? Without a court order in place, nobody would have access to that info without the bro's approval.

It would seem either the bro is not very bright or is being deceptive. Since some of his info is somewhat correct and not typically known, I would suggest it is the bro is being deceptive. Some of the reports of intended action or actual action are highly unlikey to be true. This would infer the bro is intentionally designing the story to fit his needs.
===

Mrkris: not suggesting you disown your brother but I would proceed with extreme caution in any interaction with him. His actions seem a bit deliberate and thought out to consider him to be totally innocent. Too many of the statements are not logical, or even legal, but seem to be used to garner sympathy, and additioanl money, from you.
 
  #36  
Old 01-27-07, 10:27 AM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 155
All signs of caution, true. But in the legal world, you see all kinds of things.

How do we know the brother did not turn over the matter to the bankruptcy attorney weeks ago, thinking the bankruptcy filing had taken place - only to find the bankruptcy lawyer has procrastinated? Think this does not happen all the time? Think again. That would explain two concerns - namely that the brother did pay the attorney and that the brother thought bankruptcy had been filed. That would also explain why the brother seems to half-way know a little something about bankruptcy in terms of recovery of preferential payment to creditors.

And nowhere do I believe I said that the credit card companies could go after him directly and prevail - although, if you think carefully about the possibilities involved, there is the possibility that fraudulent transfer law could apply (but only if the loan was proven not to be a loan).

Also, I do not recall saying anyone could go after the lending brother for the $30k in credit card debt. No case law necessary.

Now, just because brother says alot of things that are not correct does not make him out to have evil intent. So what if he says credit cards might file suit against lending brother? There are many people who still think they can go to jail for not paying debts.

The problem with all these statements that make people want to immediately hang the brother is that the statements could be made for all sorts of reasons. The bankruptcy attorney could have been wrong. The bankruptcy attorney could have misunderstood the brother's question when answering it. The brother could have misunderstood the bankruptcy attorney. The brother could have forgotten exactly what the bankruptcy attorney said. The brother might have misunderstood the lending brother's question. The lending brother might have misunderstood or fogotten what the borrowing brother said. Any one of these can throw a wrench into this entire thread - and for anyone to claim clairvoyance at this point could be a mistake. Not to mention some of the information provided in this thread comes from a telephone collector for the credit card company - which is about as reliable a source as there can be.... On top of that, filter everything for what it is. It is hearsay upon hearsay, filtered through - not one - but two non-lawyers.

Any way, no point in getting worked up in trying to disprove what I did not say.

The fact is there are lots of red flags but no proven scam or intent to defraud.
 
  #37  
Old 01-27-07, 11:21 AM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
Jeff Matthews: Also, I do not recall saying anyone could go after the lending brother for the $30k in credit card debt. No case law necessary.
====
mrkris: Today, my brother called to inform me he filed for bankruptcy a month ago, and the credit card companies of which he was in debt to, are suing me for 30,000.00
============
Jeff Matthews: .... and I stand on my statement that this could all be legit.
==========
I was actually speaking more to the repayment of the $2500 loan/repayment of loan situation and the courts ordering mrkris (or one in his position) to repay any such loan to a person who had filed BK. Case law would be nice to support your position.
============
Now you suggest that the attorney may have dallied in filing etc. So did you miss this statement from mrkris?

I also found out that my brother has not turned in the bakruptcy papers yet, but plans on doing it by March.
==========================
I contend the brother is being intentionally deceptive. There are too many issues of truth and situations that would tend to remove this from the
"it's possible" catagory in my book.

-----------------------
as an attorney, I would think you would choose your words a bit more carefully and advise with a bit more precision and consider all the info already given.

========
Ultimately, mrkris is in no danger of being found liable for any of bro's debts. At most, he may be required to refund some of the loan repayment from the bro, although even this is unlikely.

mrkris needs to be aware of his credit report situation and be aware of any devious methods bro may use to gain sympathy and money from him.
 
  #38  
Old 01-27-07, 11:35 AM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 155
Actually, I like not being careful.....

This is turning into a sequel to the novel/movie "Twelve Angry Men." I'll be Tony Danza. Who do you want to be?

Anyway, I'll raise the white flag so your purpose can be accomplished. You win.

When you begin your legal career, rule number one is that what the client tells you is not always correct or the full story.
 
  #39  
Old 01-27-07, 12:29 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 155
Just so we are clear, there was no rebuttal to my statement that I never suggested the credit card companies could go after lending brother for $30,000. The attempt to use the lending brother's statement that he was told the credit card companies would sue him is no rebuttal at all. So, he was told that? Did I tell him to believe it? To the contrary, I told him attempts at recovering the loan payment he received would be made only in bankruptcy court and through the trustee. Read it again. There was no miscommunication on my part.

As to the second point about the brother's mentioning he was going to be filing the bankruptcy papers in March, first tell me how this was shown to be a statement by the brother that contradicts an earlier statement by him, thus proving him a liar. Do you know what kind of papers? No.... Do you know if it was the petition, plan or schedules? No.... Do you know whether the lawyer was busy in the interim - or lolligagged - and just recently got back with the brother to request additional information so the paperwork could be completed? No..... Do you know anything more about this? The answer is "no."

What if the bankruptcy lawyer's sworn testimony was that he was busy and was just recently able to follow-up with the brother to obtain additional information? Assume that to be true, then what?

If you want to talk about being careful, first, you will see that I was. But I am certainly not beyond making misstatements or errors. I am not aware of any so far, though. Second, you will see that if you want to be more careful, you should get the name and phone number of this bankruptcy attorney and give him or her a call. But instead, you rush to judgment.

I think the propensity to be careful requires more of an open mind as opposed to a closed mind. An open mind will obviously see more information is needed in order to convict this brother.

Closed minds are what peremptory strikes and challenges for cause are for.... I would use one of my peremptory strikes if necessary to keep you from being on the jury in a case against this "evil" brother.

We agree on one thing, however.... I would not loan the brother any more money.

I will also agree that additional facts, if proven, might convince me the brother is scamming. So far, I see none of that and only a handful of red flags that makes me raise an eyebrow and want more information. Maybe the guy is as guilty as sin. Who knows?
 
  #40  
Old 01-27-07, 02:03 PM
nap's Avatar
nap
nap is offline
New Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: north
Posts: 4,163
Well I can see you truly keep your word.

Peremptory challenges? Now who is getting away from the post.You have the guy in court facing a jury. WOW.

Simply put, you said the situation could be legit. You did not limit it to everthing except the possibility of the CC companies suing mrkris. You simply stated it could be legit. That is an incorrect statement, barring the possibility of a suit with no merit that mrkris would still need to defend against.

Regarding calling the BK attorney; I obviously would not be privy to any info about the brother so it would simply be a waste of my time. As a matter of fact, mrkris himself would not be allowed any info the brother did not expressly allow to be disseminated either.

Filing for bankruptcy. If you ask 100 people (even include some attorneys in the bunch if you want) and I am confident that nearly every one (actually I doubt you will find any that believe otherwise) of them will consider this to be the original petition filing of a bankruptcy.

as far as convicting the brother of indescretions. You can believe whatever you want as I will as well but as I posted, based upon what has been posted, I would be extremely careful in any dealings with the bro.

I don't know how many "red flags" you need to observe to make a reasonable decision. A reasonable man can make a reasonable decision as long as he is given a reasonable amount of evidence.

This is not a court room where "beyond a reasonable doubt" would apply. In fact, it is closer to a civil case (which anything considered here would be) where a prepondurance of evidence would be adequate to render a decision. It would require a lot of contradictory evidence from the bro to prove this is not, at least, an attempt gain more money , possibly due to the bro's ignorance and, at the worst, be an intentional atttempt to defraud mrkris. Granted the brother has not been able to defend himself but I am not directing my advice to the bro, just to mrkris. If mrkris has been deceptive in his rendition of the situation, he is the one who will have recieved incorrect advice. I am not trying to determine or judge the OP here, merely give him advice based upon his information.

Based on his info, the brother is a person to be very wary of.

mrkris is more than likely (almost assuredly) never going to be sued (at least concerning this situation)

mrkris is more than likey not going to have to repay any of the money to the brother

with that said, due to respect for the forum, I will refrain from commenting any further in this thread unless it is to respond to the OP as advice from further inquiries. I would suggest you do the same.
 

Last edited by the_tow_guy; 01-27-07 at 02:51 PM. Reason: Removed some non-topical portions.
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
'