York outdoor Unit will not run

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  #1  
Old 05-19-07, 10:56 AM
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Unhappy York outdoor Unit will not run

Hello,

I have a York E1RA030S06D unit, its about 8 years old. When the heat pump/AC is turned on, the outside fan unit doesn't run.

I disconnected the power outside and took off the panel. The electric connector part seemed corroded and brittle. I replaced the connector unit. I hear a humming sound but the fan still doesn't come on. The capactior visually seems ok, no buldges or anything. I tried to spin the fan with a stick and it wasn't locked up or anything, but still wouldn't spin.

Anyone have any ideas on how I can troubleshoot this problem?

Thank you all.
 
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  #2  
Old 05-19-07, 04:09 PM
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Humming it probably the contactor.

You disconnected power outside. Did you check the breaker inside?

Chris
 
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Old 05-19-07, 04:55 PM
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Yes, I actually turned the breaker off for 1 hour and turned the breaker back on.
When I went and turned on the power outside, the fan attempted to come on twice but failed. When I turned on the A/C, I heard a click outside but nothing ran outside.
 
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Old 05-19-07, 05:13 PM
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Capacitor

The fan trying to run but failing and the click its the cap. The click was probably the compressor overload opening.

Without the capacitor to give a kick in the butt and move the sine wave forward, it won't work. Get a new Cap.

Chris
 
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Old 05-21-07, 11:54 AM
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Cool Cap

Hello Chris,

I replaced the Cap today with a new one. I plugged the unit from the outside and when I turned the breaker on, the fan was going slowly.

When I turned the AC on inside, the fan stopped and didn't come on. I went downstairs and the breaker tripped.

Any ideas?
 
  #6  
Old 05-21-07, 01:06 PM
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Wink

I plugged the unit from the outside and when I turned the breaker on, the fan was going slowly.

Lost here :: How could the fan turn or try to run till you called for cool at the tstat

When I turned the AC on inside, the fan stopped and didn't come on. I went downstairs and the breaker tripped.

Id say check how you wired it or something else in the condenser unit????
 
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Old 05-21-07, 01:38 PM
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fan

exactly...the fan didn't start/run like it normally does but just started spinning very slowly until the call for air. The fan then stopped after the breaker tripped.
 
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Old 05-21-07, 02:17 PM
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Wink

Check the wire set up for sure. When the power is on to the outdoor unit and the tstat dont call for cool. There is no power to the fan It cant turn
 
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Old 05-21-07, 02:34 PM
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Could very well be a grounded compressor. Fan is running on 120V which is why it is spinning slow. Calling for cooling causes the compressor to trip the breaker.

The click is the contactor pulling in not a capacitor.
 
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Old 05-21-07, 04:53 PM
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I agree, but I think there maybe more.

Back to the beginning. Guys lets start over.

First post: "The electric connector part seemed corroded and brittle. I replaced the connector unit."

Are you talking about wires or the actual contactor?

I'm with Ed here as to what you actually did. And with CovTiger on the compressor.

Can you try this:

Turn off all power to the inside and outside. Double check the capacitor wiring. Discharge it before you touch it! Use an insulated handle screwdriver to short all terminals to ground. You do not want a bite from a cap.

There may or may not be a cover on the contactor. If there is take out the one or two screws and check it. Are the contacts burned/pitted? With power off is the contactor open or closed?

If it's open it's screwdriver time. Disconnect the compressor form the contactor. Use the wiring diagram or trace the large wires from the compressor to the contactor and disconnect them. Get them out of the way and insulate with electric tape. Now the fan only is connected to the contactor.

Now go turn everything back on. Ensure the tstat is off until its time. Once all breakers are on and the disconnects are back in, call for cooling at the stat.

Does the fan start and run? Does the breaker trip?

This is not rocket science, since we're on the "line" side of the electric think of it as a bunch of components wired to work as one. In your case lets try one thing at a time. Since the fan was the question in the first post lets start there.

If the fan comes on and runs like normal, we have to look at the compressor as CovTiger said.

BE SAFE!

Guys did I miss anything?

Chris
 
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Old 05-22-07, 10:59 AM
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Question Ok update

Hello All,

I really appreciate all the help and input you all have provided.

First - To clear up some confusion, I replaced the entire Contactor part. I made sure i labelled each wire as i removed it from the old contactor and put them back in the same location on the new Single pole Contactor.

Ok I followed Chris' suggestions:

1. I turned off the power to the entire house, main breaker.
2. I pulled the disconnect from the outdoor unit.
3. I removed the panel and checked the wiring on the new capacitor.
4. As I looked carefully on the brown wire going to the fan, I did a portion that had the insullation burnt. I cut that portion out and got a new wire piece. I made sure I got the same gauge 16AWG and 600Volt. I cut the bad piece and ran the new piece to the capacitor.

5. I dissconnected the compressor wires from the Conactor so only the fan was connected to the contactor.

6. I put the panel back on, and made sure the Tstat was off. I put the disconnect back in and turned the power back on the house.

7. I went upstairs and turned on the Tstat to cool. After about 4-5 minutes , I heard the heat pump come on and looked outside and saw the fan was running.

8. Turned the Tstat back to off, and shutdown the power again.
9. Went outside and pulled the disconnect and removed the panel again.
10. connected the compressor wires back to the Contactor.
11. Put the panel back on. I put the disconnect back in and turned power back on.
12. Went upstairs and turned the Tstat to cool, waited about 4-5 minutes
13. Fan was running but no compressor sound outside.

What do you all think? Bad or shorted compressor? new unit or new compressor? Any way to troubleshoot the compressor?

Thanks for all your expert advise.
 
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Old 05-22-07, 02:32 PM
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Question fan comes on

Hey Guys,

Two more things. I have a dual zone so I turned them both on and noticed that even though the fan runs on the unit I am working on, compared to the other unit the fan seems rather slower. Not sure if this is ok or not just thought I would mention it.

Also, the breaker doesn't trip anymore.

Thanks

Jerry
 
  #13  
Old 05-22-07, 03:42 PM
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My 2 cents

Sounds like the compressor windings finally opened rather than shorting to each other.

To ckeck the compressor you'll need an ohm meter to confirm for sure. 15 bucks for a cheap one at Lowes.

However, I think, by doing the test you just did you've traveled out of DIY land.

But, just incase you want to know and since you've proved your smart enough to take proper precautions to keep from doing the 220 volt mombo. Here's how to check your compressor motor. While we call it a "compressor" there are actually two parts in that can. Compressor and motor.

If you get a multimeter anolog or digital (anolog is cheaper) turn off the power as before and disconnect all the compressor wires, even the one on the capacitor. Set the meter to ohms. Read continuity between the 3 wires. Say you have Brown, Red, and Black. Read Brown to Red, Brown to Black, and Red to Black. You should read a resistance in all cases, a reading of infinity (anolog) or OL (digital) means the winding is open, motor is no good.

But (gotta love those buts just can't get away from them) If the motor has an internal overload, you'll have to let it cool and close the overload which your compressor should have as well as most fan motors. For a fan you'll see "thermally protected" or something like that on the data plate. For a compressor since it's totally enclosed cool it down with a water hose.

But I'm running on, probably because She who must be obeyed is not here asking why I spend so much time here.

Anyway the next check, is to read each lead to ground. Any of the 3 leads to ground shoud be infinate or open (OL). Any reading of resistance means it's shorted to ground and bad.

To check a capacitor read from the "C" terminal to "Fan", you should get resistance then it should go to OL or infinite. Same with "C" to "Comp". Ant terminal to ground should be infinite.

These checks work for all motors and all run capacitors.

Now back to the outcome of your test, CovTiger nailed it a few posts back as the compressor. Not DIY. You need a Tech. And you need a Tech who can do an acid test to see if the compressor is a burn out or not.

Changing the compressor or the whole unit is strictly your call. York will give one year warranty on the part. But, (there it is again) if you opt to change the unit you'll have at least one year warranty on electric and 5 to 10 years on the compressor. Only 30 days for labor.

8 years old you probably have a 10 seer unit. Minimum made now is 13 seer. There are still 10 seer available but if you have to go 13 seer you may need a new indoor coil.

So since your out of DIY land you are in estimate land. Get at least 3 estimates and compare your options.

Sorry this is so long. But since you killed power to the entire house and pulled disconnects, I figure you deserve it.

Chris
 
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Old 05-22-07, 04:20 PM
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Only thing I would add to Chris' post is ohm the compressor out at the terminals of the compressor not the contactor/capacitor wires. It is possible that you could have a burnt or blown terminal and you will not know for sure unless you open up the terminal cover of the compressor. By checking at the compressor you are taking everything else out the mix. If it tests good there then check your wires etc.
 
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Old 05-22-07, 06:05 PM
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CovTiger I was thinking that

but I figured checking the wires would surfice. Plus it would be more complicated as DIY jerryj could possably break something.

I try to keep it simple. Even given that I will go in depth when a poster exhbits the ability to do certain tasks to help us help them.

These people we help may have a clue but (there it is again) don't have the perspective and experience we have.

I thought the wires would surfice. Since you brought it up I figure you can explain to jerryj how to check it.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, I just didn't want to go that deep. Not that that'a any deeper for us.

Chris
 
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Old 05-23-07, 04:13 PM
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Cool ohm testing

Hey Guys,

I appreciate the detail as well as the vote of confidence and faith in me

This is my first time and I have learned a ton, thanks to Chris and Covtiger.

I disconnected the 3 wires (Red, Black and Brown) and used my ohm meter.
I used Chris' test and disconnected the brown from CAP and red/black from Contactor.

Brown-->Red = Reading of 1, the needle went all the way to the right.
Red--> Black = Reading of 1, same
Black-->Brown = reading of 1, same

Reading from Ground

Brown-->ground = reading of 1, the needle went all the way to the right.
Red-->Ground = reading of 1, same
Black-->Ground = reading of 1, same.

Does that mean the compressor or motor is bad or both since they are together?

Capacitor reading:

C-->fan = reading of 1 i kept it there for 30 seconds and it stayed at 1 and didn't go to infinite
C-->Comp = reading of 1..same

About how much would a new compressor unit cost? Do they sell rebuilt/used ones?

I don't want to put that much money in this unit since we may be moving next year. Was looking for the best way to get this running for this year and part of next summer.

Thanks

Jerry.
 
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Old 05-23-07, 04:57 PM
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Sounds like the compressor is grounded. It is possible that one of the wires is grounded but you would have to check at the compressor to tell for sure (with the wires disconnected at the terminals)

8 year old unit - I would probably go with new condensor if the price was within a few hundred of a compressor replacement. Bright side is you use it as selling feature when you sell the house.
 
  #18  
Old 05-23-07, 05:01 PM
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Dead Compressor

Assuming "all the way to the right" is infinite, the windings are now open on the compressor. The cap is a not an issue at this point as you should never change a compreor or motor without changing the cap.

The readings to ground would indicate it's not shorted to the compressor casing. But, as Cov said, pull the cover off of the compressor terminals and make sure we are not at just a wiring issue.

Since the unit is only 8 years old I'd just change the compressor. I'd guess around $700 total. Since I work commercial and not residential, I really can't give a good ballpark here. Make sure an acid test is done.

Get estimates.

Used compressors are not sold. Rebuilt are but not for residential, only large semi-hermetic which is not what you have.

Sorry my friend, we've gone down this long road and taught you a bunch of stuff, but you are out of DIY land.

Please keep us abrest of what happens next and the eventuall outcome.

Chris
 
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Old 05-23-07, 05:05 PM
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Ditto with CovTiger

I forgot to put that in about a new condenser. Warranty is a selling point.

Chris
 
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Old 05-23-07, 05:28 PM
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Lightbulb Ohm meter

Hey Guys,

Not sure if this changes your thoughts.

I am looking at my ohms meter very carefully:

The infinite symbol 00 is all the way to the left and then starts at 500, 100, 50, 30,20,15,10,5,4,3,1,0 (all the way right).

Jerry
 
  #21  
Old 05-24-07, 11:59 AM
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Ohmed the compressor

Just for fun, I decided to take the cover off and take a look at the wires/terminals at the compressor.

No burnt wires or terminals

I ohmed the terminals and got conintunity for all 3.

I tried the ground test, and got a continuity reading needle went all the way to right towards 0 ohms. I should have gotton infinite on the ground test right?

Is this what you all were talking about being a grounded compressor?

Jerry
 
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Old 05-24-07, 04:34 PM
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Then it's grounded.

Any reading other than infinite is bad. Any continuity read to groud means a path to ground.

CovTiger nailed it.

Chris
 
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