Building first house - heat pump choices


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Old 01-11-09, 07:59 PM
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Building first house - heat pump choices

Hi! I'm new here, so I hope you'll be a little patient with me.

I'm going to start building my first house next month. Wanted to get some advice based on some quotes I've recieved for heat pumps and air handlers. I've done a lot of reading on here, and learned a lot, as I'm a newbie when it comes to HVAC stuff.

Some of the basics/background info:
  1. I'm building a house with ~ 2900 heated sq ft, pretty evenly divided across 2 floors. I have unfinished space above the garage and also an unfinished basement that I've excluded for now and will come back to in the future, most likely with their own units.
  2. The house will be in the warmer part of the Carolina's, so it usually stays above freezing a good portion of winter, and gets hot and humid with a fairly long summer.
  3. My builder's HVAC sub has come back with an initial heat load calculation that would require 2, 2.5 ton heat pumps. One for downstairs one for upstairs.


My questions/thoughts:
I'm not really sure what direction to head. Right now I have a few different quotes, for a few different types of systems.

1) A Ruud 13 SEER unit (UPNL030JAZ) with a standard air handler (UHSLHM3017JA) - BASE Offering/Price

2) A Ruud 14 SEER (Heat Pump - UPNL030JAZ and AH - UHLLHM3617JA) - BASE + $1200

2) A Lenox 13 SEER HP (13HPD-030) with a standard air handler (CB26UH-030-R) - BASE + ~$600

3) A few different Trane units, with a variable speed air handlers.
a) Trane XL15i Heat Pump System (Delivers 15.75 SEER, 9.0 HSPF) Heat Pumps Model #4TWX5030 w/ Trane Air-Tite Variable Speed Air Handler Model #4TEE3F39A
WARRANTY: Trane 10-Year Parts, 10-Year Compressor & Coil. Local HVAC Company 2-Year Parts & Labor.- BASE + $3,800
b) Trane XR14 Heat Pump System (Delivers 14.75 SEER, 8.4 HSPF) Heat Pumps Model #4TWR4030C1 w/ Trane Air-Tite Variable Speed Air Handler Model #4TEE3F39B1
WARRANTY: Trane 5-Year Parts, 10-Year Compressor & Coil. Local HVAC Company 1-Year Parts & Labor. - BASE + $1600

I'm leaning towards the Trane, but I'm already over my budget by even looking at them by anywhere between $2-4k for the XR14 to the XL15i. Is it worth it? If I do go with Trane, is there any concern going with one of the XR models over the XL?

I guess the key is, I want to get the best bang for the buck.


Also, here's something I can't decide at all on:
  • Should I consider/Do I need an ERV and/or an air-to-air exchanger? How critical is this to put in the system? Neither my general contractor and his HVAC sub or the other HVAC shop I've been getting quotes from included them in their quotes.

Also - based on what I've seen here, I think I'll be asking for the honeywell IAQ t-stats
 

Last edited by skdiy; 01-11-09 at 08:26 PM. Reason: formatting
  #2  
Old 01-12-09, 04:42 AM
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skdiy

here are my specs for HPs

15 SEER, 12+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching var speed air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for rated size
R410a refrigerant
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
backup heat strips that are staged based on demand

I have to admit that I like Trane(or AmStd) and the XL15i is one of the best sgl stg HPs on the market but the updated version of the XR14(C1 version) has some solid numbers-the warranty I believe is weaker.

here are the AHRI performance/eff numbers

1382197 Active Systems XR14 WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWR4030C1 4TEE3F39A1 30000 13.00 15.00 27400 9.00 18000

1382160 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5030A1 4TEE3F39A1 30000 13.00 15.75 30000 9.00 18000

one strategy from a budget standpoint is to take the XR14 and purchase an ext warranty

I would hope you have seen a written man J load calculation.

most new homes with tight construction/insulation properties should look at an ERV-discuss with GC and HVAC dealers.

what are you doing about air cleaners?

I assume you will have central returns. Correct? you should have at least two on each floor of course sized correctly.

make certain space above garage is insulated extra good-this space is always more difficult to heat and cool.

IMO
 
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Old 01-12-09, 05:59 AM
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Ditto on two points made: get a copy of the Manual J. Doing one with a house that is still on paper should be easy. Also ditto on insulating the garage ceiling/over garage floor extra good; ie making it as tight as possible. That part of my house is the hardest part to keep cool/heated.
 
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Old 01-12-09, 06:02 AM
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My only suggestion is to get the system with the best heating specs.
 
  #5  
Old 01-12-09, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TigerDunes
skdiy

here are my specs for HPs

15 SEER, 12+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching var speed air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for rated size
R410a refrigerant
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
backup heat strips that are staged based on demand
Here's the (pretty much) exact wording from the quote for the trane units:
OPTION 1 -- Trane XL15i Heat Pump System (Delivers 15.75 SEER, 9.0 HSPF) BASE Price + ~$3600
Install two 2-1/2 ton Trane XL15i Heat Pumps Model #4TWX5030 w/ Trane Air-Tite Variable Speed Air Handler
Model #4TEE3F39A w/ 8 kw Auxiliary Heat Strips
WARRANTY: Trane 10-Year Parts, 10-Year Compressor & Coil. Local HVAC Dealer 2-Year Parts & Labor.
OPTION 2 -- Trane XR14 Heat Pump System (Delivers 14.75 SEER, 8.4 HSPF) BASE Price + ~$1600
Install two 2-1/2 ton Trane XR14 Heat Pumps Model #4TWR4030C1 w/ Trane Air-Tite Variable Speed Air Handler
Model #4TEE3F39B1 w/ 8 kw Auxiliary Heat Strips
WARRANTY: Trane 5-Year Parts, 10-Year Compressor & Coil. Local HVAC Dealer 1-Year Parts & Labor.
Every system that we install includes our premium duct package and carries a LIFETIME WARRANTY on the
workmanship of the duct installation. The system will be installed per North Carolina code and will include a complete
start-up and operations check. The installation includes the following:
1. THE DUCT SYSTEM WILL BE EXTERNALLY INSULATED METAL DUCT SEALED TO ENERGY STAR
STANDARDS WITH MASTIC PASTE.
2. THE INDIVIDUAL SUPPLY DUCTS WILL HAVE MANUAL VOLUME DAMPERS FOR BETTER
TEMPERATURE CONTROL.
3. EACH SYSTEM WILL BE CUSTOM DESIGNED BUT AS A MINIMUM WILL HAVE 2 RETURNS ON
SYSTEMS COVERING GREATER THAN 1600 SQ. FT. AND 1 RETURN FOR LESS THAN 1600 SQ. FT.
4. SECOND LEVEL SYSTEMS WILL HAVE A DRAIN PAN UNDER THE UNIT, AN AQUA-GUARD FLOAT
SWITCH, AND A SAFETY DRAIN.
5. 7-DAY PROGRAMMABLE DIGITAL THERMOSTATS WILL BE INSTALLED FOR EACH SYSTEM
6. OUTDOOR EQUIPMENT WILL BE SET ON OUTDOOR ALL WEATHER EQUIPMENT PADS
6. ONE YEAR MAINTENANCE AGREEMENT ON EACH SYSTEM.

ADDITIONAL WORK INCLUDED IN ESTIMATE:
Gas piping: Qty (1) fireplace.
Venting: Qty (1) dryer and Qty (5) bath fans.
Warranty: 5 years on all parts.
The following options can be added to your system for an additional charge at the prices given below:
1. DUCT CLEANING AND SANITATION AFTER THE HOUSE IS COMPLETE PRIOR TO SYSTEM START-UP,
$20 PER SUPPLY AND $40 PER RETURN.
2. FIVE INCH MEDIA FILTER LOCATED AT THE INDOOR UNIT, $450 EACH.
3. LENNOX PURE-AIR AIR PURIFICATION SYSTEM, $1450 EACH.
4. TRANE FRESH EFFECTS ERV SYSTEM, $1960 EACH.
5. HONEYWELL ERV SYSTEM, $450 EACH.
6. UPGRADE TO HONEYWELL IAQ THERMOSTAT, $125 EACH.
7. HONEYWELL TrueSTEAM WHOLE HOUSE HUMIDIFIER, $1400 EACH.
8. 10 YEAR PARTS AND LABOR EXTENDED WARRANTY, $680 EACH SYSTEM.

Originally Posted by TigerDunes
I have to admit that I like Trane(or AmStd) and the XL15i is one of the best sgl stg HPs on the market but the updated version of the XR14(C1 version) has some solid numbers-the warranty I believe is weaker.
Any other big differences between the XR and XL series?
Originally Posted by TigerDunes
here are the AHRI performance/eff numbers

1382197 Active Systems XR14 WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWR4030C1 4TEE3F39A1 30000 13.00 15.00 27400 9.00 18000

1382160 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5030A1 4TEE3F39A1 30000 13.00 15.75 30000 9.00 18000
Looks pretty close to me

Originally Posted by TigerDunes
one strategy from a budget standpoint is to take the XR14 and purchase an ext warranty
Seems costly to do that, almost enough to just justify going with the XL15i

Originally Posted by TigerDunes
I would hope you have seen a written man J load calculation.
I have not - what would this tell me? I'm a pretty technically oriented person, so I'm sure it would interest me, but why should I specifically request this? Just curious.

Originally Posted by TigerDunes
most new homes with tight construction/insulation properties should look at an ERV-discuss with GC and HVAC dealers.
That's what I was thinking. I'm going to have a pretty tightly sealed house, and I hate stale air. What's the differences between an ERV and a straight up air to air exchanger? The Trane ERV was 3-4x more expensive than a honeywell model that the HVAC company quoted (above). Any thoughts on the honeywell ERV vs the Trane?

My other big question about ERVs is that if I have a system for upstairs and a system for downstairs, would I be able to get away with a single ERV on one of the systems or would I really need to get an ERV for both? If fresh air was being brought in on the first floor via an ERV, would the suffice?

Originally Posted by TigerDunes
what are you doing about air cleaners?
I've included the information regarding the media filter quote. I'm not quite sure what to do here. Like I said - I'm already over my allowance/budget before considering these. I think it's probably a good idea, but I'm kinda suprised by the cost. Although not terribly expensive, it's another $900 for both systems.

Originally Posted by TigerDunes
I assume you will have central returns. Correct? you should have at least two on each floor of course sized correctly.
Yes, 2 returns on the first floor and 2 on the second. We had the architect make sure to include these on the drawings and make areas for them.

Originally Posted by TigerDunes
make certain space above garage is insulated extra good-this space is always more difficult to heat and cool.
Definitely - right now it'll be used as storage, but will eventually be a nice finished off bonus room. I'm considering putting radiant barrier shielded sheathing for the roof, which should also help.

Originally Posted by TigerDunes
IMO

Couldn't ask for more... thank you for your help up this point already.
 

Last edited by skdiy; 01-12-09 at 01:51 PM.
  #6  
Old 01-12-09, 01:47 PM
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Just a comment. When your GC isn't including ventillation right from the start, he is telling you he doesn't build a really tight house. Maybe this will be his first, but builders who build them tight have learned they need to have them tested and they need mechanical ventillation. Ask about a blower door test, a CFM50 reading, and what ACH his homes usually achieve. That's the test and those are the numbers they need to size an ERV.

Bud
 
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Old 01-12-09, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Bud9051
Just a comment. When your GC isn't including ventillation right from the start, he is telling you he doesn't build a really tight house. Maybe this will be his first, but builders who build them tight have learned they need to have them tested and they need mechanical ventillation. Ask about a blower door test, a CFM50 reading, and what ACH his homes usually achieve. That's the test and those are the numbers they need to size an ERV.

Bud
::EDIT:: NM - gotcha. Good advice.

I do know that is one thing he consistently refers to - how well he seals up a house. However - I suppose that's good advice. I was considering going for the energy star rating tests, but I'm not convienced the additional costs just to get certified are worth it.
 
 

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