Would like Heat Pump Advise

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Old 05-11-09, 10:06 AM
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Would like Heat Pump Advise

When I bought my house 5 years ago, it had a non-working heat pump, compressor was frozen, heat strips were burned up and the blower motor was locked up.

I was in a pickle, and started calling around getting quotes from $5500 to $9500....way more than I could afford.
I finally found a guy who said he had some used equipment behind his shop, and he could get something going to hold me over for a few months, till I was on my feet.
He installed a 3 ton Goodman heat pump with a Janitrol air handler for 900 bucks. at that time he estimated it was a 8-10 seer system.
Fast forward 5 years, the unit that should have only taken me 6 months is now 5 years old, and has been charged twice since January. Its time for a new unit.

In reading through different posts and websearching I have come to a few conclusions...please correct me if im wrong
1. I want a temperature iniciated / terminated defrost cycle
2. I want a variable speed blower motor.
3. I want at least a 15 seer system.

I am currently looking at Goodman, but their defrost cycle seems to be a timed cycle, as far as I can tell.

Anyone have any advise or experiance they can share to help my decision making?
 
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Old 05-11-09, 10:42 AM
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steve

these are the min specs one should look for in a new HP system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
best rated matching var speed air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for rated size
R-410a refrigerant
new lineset preferred
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips

The Fed Govt will offer up to a $1500 tax credit for qualifying systems the next two years. It would be a mistake to leave this on the table by not upgrading.

my personal favorites are the following:

Trane XL15i or sister mdl Am Std Heritage 15
Carrier Performance 15 "H" mdl or sister mdl Bryant Preferred 15 "H" model.

Trane and sister company AmStd's HPs have "electronic demand defrost" which eliminates unnecessary defrost calls. I also believe the better model Rheem HPs have it as well.

Let me know if you have any questions.

IMO
 
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Old 05-11-09, 11:39 AM
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Thanks the quick reply,
Thats exactly the info I was looking for, now I have had two people quote systems I have never heard of before..
Payne and Diamond
I am finding it very hard to decern one brand from another, maily because it seems everyone is owned by everyone else.

so far 3 of the 4 quotes I have gotten have been on the spot, which worries me because they are not taking the time to calculate what the house really needs to heat and cool/heat it.
As I mentioned I have a 3 ton goodman right now, but thats all he had laying around when I was begging for used system.

One did call back to say he would install a 2.5 ton unit, and replace all the ductwork in the house (all in attic) because it was old pressed fiberglass tube, he wants to replace it with flex.
furthermore, he is recomending I install a new return, centrally in the hall ceiling, currently the return consists of 3 filter grilles using empty wall cavities to the attic and insulated steel duct to the return side of the air handler.

Needless to say, he is the most expensive of the quotes thus far, but I have decided to get a few more and throw out the ones who did not calculate the heating and cooling needs of the house.
 
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Old 05-11-09, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Stevetra View Post
In reading through different posts and websearching I have come to a few conclusions...please correct me if im wrong
1. I want a temperature iniciated / terminated defrost cycle
2. I want a variable speed blower motor.
3. I want at least a 15 seer system.
The issues surrounding these items are efficiency, reliability, and cost. These items increase efficiency - lowering operational costs but have increased upfront cost. Reliability of VS blowers is not clear, but their replacement is costly. Every temp sensor you add increases complexity, diagnostic time and expense when repairing.

I suggest you get a range of quotes from each brand from 13-15 SEER, from a number of different manufacturer lines, and let the cost help you decide. $1500 from the govies is nice, but means less when it increases the cost of your system substantially, erasing the credit and operational cost savings.

Finally, don't forget to use an installer that does quality work, because even superior equipment can be installed to perform poorly.
 
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Old 05-14-09, 04:19 AM
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New quotes are trickling in, and it appears that 2.5 ton unit is what I need, not the 3 ton unit the first two companies recomended.

Best quote on a completely intalled system has been from a American Standard dealer, $6,075 after $400 rebate. It is a 2.5 Ton, 15seer, R-410a refrigerant, new lineset, scroll compressor, electronic demand defrost, with variable speed blower. Price also includes a secondary drip tray with float switch.
For an Additional $1700 he will re-duct the supply ducts, and add dampers to deliver the correct amount of conditioned air to each room per his calculations, but he feels the return duct is fine.
This unit would qualify for the tax credit.
The units come with 10 year warranties, and he will warranty the installation workmanship for 10 years, more or less meaning I will not pay for service other that yearly maintenance checks for 10 years.
On top of that he quoted blowing in additional insulation into my attic, for $900, right now I have 6" of instulation and he is recomending 10".

Although it is the best quote, and he impressed with the degree of services offered, on top of the fact I they have been in business since 1972, its still alot of money to spend.

On the flip side I can purchase a comperable Goodman unit off the internet for $2100 with the same features (with the exception of the teperature demanded defrost cycle) that has no warranty, set the units myself, and have a independent HVAC guy come to my house and connect and charge the system for around $350.
When you add in the cost of a new line set, and drip pan with float switch, I am looking at around $2950, roughly half of the quoted cost.
but with no warranty.

what am I missing?
 
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Old 05-14-09, 05:06 AM
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I have always stated that the installing contractor is more important then the equipment. Most HVAC problems like insufficient cooling or hot and cold spots, premature compressor failure, refrigerant leaks etc are the result of a poor installation.

Thats what your missing
 
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Old 05-14-09, 05:20 AM
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Sounds like you now have quotes for both extremes. For instance, what would a local Goodman dealer charge to install that unit, so you can get the 10 year warranty?
 
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Old 05-14-09, 05:49 AM
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The Amana ASZ heat pumps have temp initiated and terminated defrost cycles and also come with copeland diagnostics on the compressor (very nice overlooked upgrade). Amana also has lifetime warranties on the compressors and heat exchangers if you go dual fuel.

Ask about the Amana "ASZ" line because they are a higher grade of equipment than the typical Goodman lineup and Amana's line has far more efficient matches than Carrier, Trane, Lennox, etc. Amana is the best combination of price and performance but the contractor still must be a VERY GOOD contractor for the system to be reliable.
 
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Old 05-15-09, 07:33 AM
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steve

not a great price but certainly reasonable.

I assume the $6075 price is before the tax credit.

see below. this is the air handler you want for best efficiency and operating performance.

1382161 Active Systems HERITAGE 15 AMERICAN STANDARD, INC. 4A6H5030A1 4TEE3F39A1 30000 13.00 15.75 30000 9.00 18000

you do want the HW VisionPro IAQ stat.

what size heat strip was quoted?

I would not have the Goodman.

IMO
Good Luck!
 
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Old 05-17-09, 10:16 AM
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I do have Amana quoting the system, but I wont have the quote till tomorrow,

As for the American Standard, the equipment he was the following:
Heat Pump, 4A6H5030
Air Handler: 4TEE3F39
AUX Heater: BAYHTR1410BRKB
30,000 HEATING
30,000 COOLING
SEER 15
He quoted a digital thermostat, but dosnt list what type
 
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Old 05-17-09, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by TigerDunes View Post
steve

these are the min specs one should look for in a new HP system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
IMO
New to the forum. Looking at dual fuel myself, but am confused about above suggestion. Energy Star requires following for HP and 2009 tax credit:

HSPF >= 8.5
EER >= 12.5
SEER >= 15

After researching a lot, and finding very few HP's with HSPF at or above 9. Am I missing something?
 
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Old 05-18-09, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jerryd_2008 View Post
New to the forum. Looking at dual fuel myself, but am confused about above suggestion. Energy Star requires following for HP and 2009 tax credit:

HSPF >= 8.5
EER >= 12.5
SEER >= 15

After researching a lot, and finding very few HP's with HSPF at or above 9. Am I missing something?
What have you found? Amana, York, Coleman are just a few that make HPs to exceed that 8.5 HSPF.
 
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Old 05-19-09, 03:18 PM
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Amana quote is in
2.5 Ton
15 seer $7956 including a new supply trunk
16 seer $9612 including a new supply trunk

Goodman
15 Seer $6843 with new supply trunk....
 
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Old 05-19-09, 05:08 PM
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Post M# of both indoor and outdoor equipment with all other inclusions
 
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Old 05-19-09, 05:35 PM
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The info I listed is exactly the quote, The literature he enclosed with the quote says the amana heat pump is a ASZ w/ 2 stage scroll compressor eith 18 or 16 seer, no literature was provided for the air handler although he verbally said it was a variable speed blower.

The literature on the goodman is not correct, he quoted a 15 seer unit, but gave me a GSZ13 book...and no air handler info
 
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Old 05-19-09, 05:43 PM
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A proper quote would be: we propose to install an Amana ASZ14xxx matched to an AExxxx variable speed air handler meeting xxxxx federal tax credits with an ARI# of xxxxx

Installation to include new line set, outdoor cond pad , new whip and disconnect, heat pump risers, new stat, connect to all existind condensate lines with overflow protection..........................etc. etc. etc. with a warranty of xxxx

If all you recieved was what you posted you have the wrong contractor
 
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Old 05-19-09, 06:10 PM
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I agree.
The American Standard dealer did exactly that, outlined the units with model numbers, and listed all that was included. Then broke out the cost of things he recomended that I did not originally ask for, but he saw them as possible obsticals to achieving the best efficiency out of the unit.
 
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Old 05-19-09, 09:41 PM
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Amana or Goodman

I too received an Amana ASZ18 18 SEER proposal. Not knowing much about them, I surfed their web site. Almost fell off my chair when I read:

Amana® is a trademark of Maytag Corporation and is used under license to Goodman Company, L.P.

So is Amana really Goodman?
 
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Old 05-20-09, 04:05 AM
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The Amana NAME is a trade mark of Maytag, however Nordyne makes Maytag HVAC equip along with Gibson, Tappan, Frigidaire, and others.

Goodman owns Amana HVAC, its made at the same plant but its not the same equipment, Amana distinctions series is. If you had been quoted Goodman it would have been a GSZ18.
 
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Old 05-20-09, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jerryd_2008 View Post
I too received an Amana ASZ18 18 SEER proposal. Not knowing much about them, I surfed their web site. Almost fell off my chair when I read:

Amana® is a trademark of Maytag Corporation and is used under license to Goodman Company, L.P.

So is Amana really Goodman?
They are related but Amana equipment is of a much higher quality than Goodman.

Both names are provide quality equipment. Goodman equipment is good stuff, too. I don't know why that would cause you to fall out of your chair.
 
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Old 05-20-09, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
They are related but Amana equipment is of a much higher quality than Goodman.

Both names are provide quality equipment. Goodman equipment is good stuff, too. I don't know why that would cause you to fall out of your chair.
I don't get a warm feeling about Goodman in the chat rooms. Could be due to posters' affiliations with other products. However, in my many years as a customer I never heard of Goodman and even Amana as a heat pump provider is a bit foreign to me.
 
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Old 05-20-09, 08:53 AM
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There is no problem with any of them really.
I wouldn’t hesitate placing a Goodman unit on my house; they are probably the largest suppliers of HVAC units when you consider that 90% of the apartments and rental properties use Goodman because of price, so I would have to say that statistically speaking they are good units, designed for their application.

I have a Comfort Maker in my basement, works great, I installed it myself from ducting to routing the line set and had a HVAC contractor connect the electric and refrigerant lines, its been running ever since.

I am going to get one more quote before I make a decision.

Now one quick question….
If I decide to buy a unit online…will any of you ever talk to ma again?
 
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Old 05-20-09, 09:55 AM
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I'll still talk to ya, but, no matter what the web site says any HVAC equipment bought on line has no warranty
 
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Old 05-20-09, 05:00 PM
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Ok, how about this....

I already have a guy who installs Trane systems for a living, He has told me that if I get a system he will help me install it, and get it running.
If I can talk him into ordering the unit and I pay through him at his wholesaler....will they void the warranty then....
 
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Old 05-20-09, 05:21 PM
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No, provided the equipment gets registered
 
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Old 05-21-09, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
What have you found? Amana, York, Coleman are just a few that make HPs to exceed that 8.5 HSPF.
Making the 8.5 is a lot easier than making 9. If you are into detail like me, the AHRI web site has a great search capability using all kinds of parameters like SEER, EER, HSPF, manufacturer, size, etc. or subsets there of. Here is the site: HP Search

Surprisingly, Amana has some pretty good numbers. I did find that they also sell some lower level products that are really Goodman which owns the Amana name these days.

My one Amana proposal was outrageously high (or maybe that's I hope it was). No rebates proposed. Proposed a split AC/furnace and just happened to add the dual-fuel add-on at the bottom for 10%+ increase. Also couldn't get him off of insisting on cleaning our ducts which we have no interest in and don't believe is necessary.
 
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Old 05-31-09, 07:12 PM
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Well its been a few weeks, I have exahusted my area HVAC companies with quotes, and have been given the information needed to make what I think is a informed decision on my heat pump replacement.

Two key factors that are going into making my decision.
1. I plan on living in this house for about 5 more years.
2. The house was built in 1975, and is not the tightest house on the block.

Based on all of the calculations made, my house needs a 2.7Ton unit .... so far 2 installers have recomended a 2.5 ton unit, and 3 have recomended a 3 ton unit.

The most affordable solution I have so far is through a independant licenced HVAC repair guy, who will purchse the unit and deliver it to my house.
He will then "remove old unit of freon and disconnect the lineset. At that time I pay the man for the unit and his time.

I will then remove the old unit both inside and outside and replace the lineset. I will place the new secondary drain pan, and set the new units.
I will connect the supply and return ducting.

I then make a phone call and he will return to connect the lineset, install the heat strips and connect the electrical and charge the system. He will also inspect my work.

He is offering 2 different size Goodman units, he says its up to me which one I go for 2.5 ton for $3250 or a 3ton $3500
I will get the warranty and he will register the unit.

the unit numbers are :
3 ton
SSZ140361A
AEPF426016
with TX3N4 expansion valve

2.5 Ton
SSZ140301A
AEPF313716
with TX3N4 expansion valve

Any comments?
 
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Old 06-01-09, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Stevetra View Post
the unit numbers are :
3 ton
SSZ140361A
AEPF426016
with TX3N4 expansion valve

2.5 Ton
SSZ140301A
AEPF313716
with TX3N4 expansion valve
How did the old system cool and dehumidify? If it tended to short-cycle because it was oversized and not provide adequate dehumidification you'll want the 2.5 ton.

Also, since you will not be in the house that long you are simply replacing so you can resell (ie, no ROI). Consequently, I would go with their lowest end system R-22 13 SEER: SSH130361A or SSH130301A.
 
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Old 06-01-09, 10:13 AM
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I did consider dropping to a R-22 13 seer, but would not qualify for green incentives offered locally.
Regaurdless of the federal tax credit, our power company will lower my watt charge by installing a 15 seer system and adding insulation.


I always thought the current 3 ton system did well, and seemed to dehumidify pretty good, although it did cycle often.
In the heat of the middle of the day during a 60 min time period, the current system will cycle 2 to 3 times. The run time of the unit is about 8-15 min.
 
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Old 06-01-09, 10:20 AM
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Sounds like the 3 ton unit you've picked to take advantage of local incentives is the way to go.

Let us know how things turn out.
 
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Old 06-09-09, 07:30 PM
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Update....My whole master plan has completely fallen apart.

Back to square one.

My current heat pump is still cooling, but it could die any day now.
I have what I feel is the best quote to date, $5250 for a 15.5 seer split system, but I am not familiar with the manufacturer.
How does Air Ease stack up?
I do not have many particulars on the system quoted, but I will hopefuly have better info tomorrow.
I know the heat pump is a 4SHP16LT, and the air handler is a variable speed, but I dont know the model number.

Anyone have any experiance with Air Ease?
 
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Old 06-10-09, 12:12 AM
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Old 06-10-09, 05:13 AM
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Thanks or the links.
Lots of pros and cons to consider
Some people love them some hate them.
The quoted unit comes with a 10 year parts and labor warranty, hopefully I wont need it.
 
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