Tappan Heat Pump Help Needed

Hi all. I am new here. I will try to give best info as I have it.

I have a Tappan heat pump I installed 5 years ago. Its a 3 ton 15 Seer (410a) unit w/both 2 stage heat and cool. I installed a 75K btu 80/20 gas furnace on it for the supp heat source. I also installed a "dual Fuel" kit (basically a board in line) and for what I dont know....? But I am having a couple of issues and questions:

Primarily I am loosing the start capacitor about once a year. Usually the fan side goes, but this year they both seem to be failing. I first noticed the fan not running a few times when the home was not cooling properly, but as of today, I have realized that while the condenser fan is running, the compressor must not be started as the unit is not cooling. This is also the first year that the problem seems to be occuring kinda slowed in action, as over the past two weeks it has worked "on & Off" and really at what capacity or which side not functioning I am not sure as the temp is kinda moderate now so no real notice if not working lately.. But today its warmer and I am noting the issue for sure.

I have a Honeywell vision 8000 series thermostat.

(1) Anyone have any ideas why I might be having so many capacitor failures?
(2) Do I really even need the dualfuel circuit board in the low voltage control line while using that thermostat.?

Sorry somewhat ignorant as I am not formally trained. Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance..

 

Very hard to say what is gong on! I'd say if this keep happinng it's an install issue are just the low end equipment! I'd get a good company to come take a look at it to save u money.

 

you need to check your run capacitor and hard start if applicable.

 

Uhhhh....

(1) OK, so are you saying that the Tappan/Nordine equipment is crap? I am fine with that, just want to be clear.
(2) I am not arguing that it could be an install/application issue. However I will also point out that the connections were made and taught to me by a veteran HVAC guy. The unit electrical connections are correct.
(3) So I was looking for some common reasons that the capacitor on an otherwise healthy unit would continue to fail. Common wiring wear points, loose connections, etc.. Surely you have run into this before..?
(4) I am still wanting to confirm whether or not I can run the dualfuel unit with the thermostat only, and no relay/control board in line? I am thinking I can with that thermostat if I enable the outside temp control?
(5) HIre an HVAC repair company to "save me money"??? You have 4000 posts here. Are they all hot air?? Come on. You got to have more than that.... Perhaps this section is new and you have been busy in other columns.... If I was going to fork out for an HVAC tech, do you think I would be here?!

 

Thank you for your involvement. I am not sure the proceedure for the hard start. I am certain that the compressor side of the start/run capacitor is the issue. So I am assuming you are indicating this proceedure simply to determine that the compressor is intact.?? Can we assume it is functioning for now. A visual inspection of the compressor indicates no issues. I have seen a few fried by lightning/surge/etc. This is not the case. These units come with copeland scroll compressors. They are bullet proof short of a direct lightning hit, or beating them with an axe... LOL....

I would not mind learning how to hard start it. I guess I could at least set it down low to run through the night straight to early morning...... Could you please elaborate...

 

OK, so you believe it is the run capacitor, do you have the capability of check the capacitor, or is it swelled to the point you can tell that is the problem? Also a Hard Start is a kit including a start capacitor and potential relay, these are typically not needed on scroll compressors.

Check your incoming voltage to ensure it is in the correct range as this can cause capacitors to fail early.

You DO NEED the dual fuel kit/board or a different stat in order for the system to work properly with a gas furnace and HP

 

Thanks again for more interest.

When he said "hard start" I though he was referring to the practice of jumping the compressor off in some way I have seen done before, and just to test. Come to think of it I guess it would not stay on w/out a the compressor side of the capacitor functioning.

So please let me clarify ( and this is a question). The capacitor in an HVAC unit like this has two sides. Compressor, and fan. I was under the impression that this is technically a capacitor that functions as both start and run (as some capacitors that I have seen in other applications are start only). So I was also assuming then that the fan side was basically a start only, and that the compressor side has both start and run capability.

As far as the physical condition, I have not really looked well as I was assuming based on history. In the past there has never really been a whole lot of physical sign of distress on failure. I do understand you can sometimes see a hole, or burn area when they fail. I have never found this. So I have never seen one really distort either. Testing wise I am not sure if my current meter does microfarads. I was getting ready to look. Its a cheap harbor freight one by I swear it might have had a setting on it for that.

Could you please elaborate on confirming proper voltage.?? I am thinking you are referring to low voltage DC? I guess I kinda was thinking that 220 is 220. But then again. I will say that it is properly broken at the box, the run is about 60 feet and I think I used a #10/3 if I recall. Seems like the draw was acceptable for that. The unit pulls lower at low speeds obviously so I was thinking it would not really tax the unit/line on the pull...

I am skeptical about the quality of the condenser unit. While it has a solid copland base, some of it is crap. For example, I lost the conderser fan bearings at year 5. Of course the aholes at nordine would not send me a new one REGARDLESS of the warranty, as the required a certified tech. I offered to send them the motor for spite in lieu of cost, still no go. No license is required to change a condenser fan that I know of. So go figure. I will not buy their products again. I should have just bought a Bryant I am thinking.....

Are you sure on that stat. I had a guy brag he could do it once. Its a pretty fancey stat really short of humidity functions, I thought....?

 

1.) the capacitor you speak of is called a DUAL RUN CAPACITOR
this capacitor is a run capacitor, while it is used to help start the compressor/motor it also puts one leg out of phase to help it run efficiently. this is for both compressor and fan side of a dual run capacitor.
2.) You should be able to tell a swelled capacitor from a normal capacitor, and this is normally what you will find when one side has failed and the other still works. One note on capacitors is that they need to replaced with the correct voltage capacitor, some are 370V and some are 440V. A 370V can not replace a 440V but a 440V can replace a 370V. I carry only 440Von my work truck as they replace both capacitors.
3.) Voltage is measured in AC and typically you want to be within 10% +/- of what the unit calls for. This info will be on the data plate.
4.) IMO nordyne is a lower end unit, but not covering the warranty except by a certified contractor is industry standard and would not have done you any good by going with Bryant over Nordyne.
5.) Your stat may or may not work as the Fossil fuel kit, but to run as the kit you typically are required more wires to the stat which may be why your stat is not set up as such.

 

I would only like to note, that out of all the failed capacitors I have seen ( a few on 3-4 different units). They were confirmed bad on the fan side every time and I never saw one swollen or hardly distressed. So that supprises me somewhat...

I was aware of the importance of the correct specs on the cap.. I did actually use the next one up in voltage a season or two ago. Did not really change the life expectancy though.

I am pretty sure its a 220 unit stated. Also pretty sure thats what I am getting at the box. All though I will confess I dont think I have actually applied a meter to it as the mere thought of locking up with a 220 send chills....

Yes it would be interesting to see what exactly the thermostat will do with regard. The dual fuel relay was suggested as a catchall with no research. The guy teching me connections had not done residential in years, and no consideration was given otherwise. The thermostat actuall has a code for controlled by external fossil fuel kit, or not. So actually I am thinking it might now that I recall that.

With reference to NOrdine. Yes I am thinking crap, although the Tappan name gives the nice cabinet... The reference to bryant was just because I could have purchased that one myself w/out lic and probably a little less expensive. Yea, I know the industry game there. The only thing tougher than getting a/c help outside "the Family" these days is spray foam insulation.. LOL
So any more input is also appreciated. And I do thank you for all you have offered considering the limited data I provided. Much appreciated...

 

Never said unit was crap said it was low end! Most repeated issues come from bad installs. I'd again recommend a good tech go over the install. This will tell you if the unit was installed correctly which can save you hundreds of dollars a year in energy plus hopefully fix the repeated issues you are having!

 

Airman, You do bring up an excellent point. I have often wondered if I am getting the energy savings I should expect. All I could do to testify, is confirm I was getting a max 18 degree temp change when the unit was in high speed, and visually confim the unit kicks up and down (visual on occasional note) when it is supposed to. So I wonder. I have a terrible issue with old leaky duct runs with the insulation just soaked in condensation in some places. This has worsened since the install, and proportionately by coincidence of my activity otherwise up there. So I assume that is my remaining issue. But you never know. Techs have serviced it once or twice, but never commented one way or the other.

On a final note, I am really not sure where the savings is supposed to be?!?!? FRLA is about 27 I think, and in low speed I think it pulls about 18 amps. It seems like my old 3 ton unit only pulled 23 whenever running. But the point is that in my old home with no wall insulation, it still runs 24/7 in the summer, and when getting the full 18 degree air change at the closest register. And I am talking 28amp RUNNNIG. If it kicks down in the summer its not before 4 am..... And actually the attic insulation in my 60's home is really old and non existant, and topped with compressed blown in cellulose garbage that was installed 15 years ago to boot. I cant tell you how releaved I am to see Home Depot is now offering blown in fiberglass. But ten units and get the machine till yur done!!! This may be momentus moreso than I realize...

 

that is high amp draw......... you sure the data plate is rated that high!? seems like an awful lot!

 

Make sure you are using the recommended cap for the unit. The high amp draw and short cap life could be from the wrong uF ratings for the fan and/or compressor.

 

On the RLA, my bad as I dont know what the hell I was thinking of. The RLA is listed as 17, and the critical 22.. So I am not even sure if it addresses the low side draw. Thats data from the plate, and I thought I was citing same, but must have been thinking of other unit. So I am loosing my mind in old age.....

So now the plot thickens for me. Got the capacitor off today and it is fine. I dont have my gauges right now, so again I am just an uttering jackass for the moment. But when I listen to the cond unit start, it comes on low like supposed to and then kicks up to high, and I swear I hear the compressor running in sync. I am starting to wonder if I have lost my gas. The unit does seem to change the air temp only slightly in either heat or cool. In cool the suction line is not really cold at all and just MAYBE below ambient temps.. There are not leaks detected at the service points. So I am getting the gauges back tomorrow...

Correction, I am getting exactly 5 degrees of air change to the cool side. !?!??!??

 

just FYI we will not give refrigerant pressure/temp information out on the forum per posting rules

 

Not sure what you meant here. Are you speaking of the voltage rating for the capacitor..? If so, I think I have varied from exact to next common step up. Its a 440 on there now and I think that may be high. But again, the cap does not seem to be the issue after all....

 

He was speaking of the capacitance rating such as 40 micro-farads vs. 30 micro-farads. 440V can be used in place of 370V

 

OK, yes the MF rating is spec.. Oh and I get it, He was using "CAP" for capacitor and I assumed high side limit..... LOL....


Further, the unit is humming and I def hear the "windy/grindy" sound the compressor makes, only it sounds "light" like its not having to work... So I am starting to suspect a leak. Sorry dont have guages till tomorry as mentioned so I am kinda dead in the water...

I just checked the temp again and I am getting no change at all really at this time and the unit appears to be what I am interpreting as running on all sides... I will note that I have seen the condenser unit cycle off even though no cooling effect is achieved. Then comes on again in time?!?!

So unless anyone has any further thoughts for an amateur I will get back once I confirm there is junk in the trunk...... I dont even have an amp meter.. Sorry...

 

The fan motor and the compressor motor call for a certain specified micro farad (uF) rating for the run capacitors. When you changed caps were the uF ratings the same as the original cap from Tappan? When you changed the fan motor was it an identical replacement or a universal motor? A universal motor will sometimes have a different uF requirement for the run cap than the original. The uF cap rating for the fan motor should be on the motor label.

 

Yes, Unjless someone slipped a fast one by me. The HVAC guys around town here are pretty creepy protective of their monopoly round here. I do think the voltage was bumped to a 440 a some point, but to my recollection the MF rating was exact. The fan motor I replaced was a tappan original part from the service vendor in the area...

 

Alrighty there.. Here's the update...

(and prior to deleting this post please read carefully as I have asked no questions on how to charge the unit. I only use measured stats as reference for diagnosis)

So I am not sure where the line blurs when discussions of refrigerant come into play. Seems like I looked and could not find a definitive answer in the forum guidelines.!?!? SO I will try to keep away from the concept of "charging" as indicated in an earlier post....

It turns out once the guages were applied the pressures were low (operating in heat mode). Typically, to my recollection, you want ANY UNIT to be about 40 degrees on the evap coil and these 410a units tuning out around 3-400 on the high side. So I was presented with a unique scenario as I had never viewed actual operating specs in reverse with the cold on the outside. So I assumed all the stats were the same, just opposite. HOWEVER, its the variance the changes. Whereas in the summer you can have heat/direct heat creating temps on the cond coil exceeding 100 degrees. This is not the case in the winter... But come to think of it you now have the opp on the cold side.. STILL So this WINTER scenario while the variation in extremes may even be more exaggerated, we are not going to the HIGH side and driving ever precious head pressures THROUGH THE ROOF. So I guess all untold, to charge a unit in the winter, would allow one to overcharge if anything, but less prominant once realized in the summer in the 410a type unit.. Long and short is that I was reading 20 degress on the low side and way down on the high as well. In fact, much more exxagerated, however proportionally similar in loading/reloading,,I think...

I dont know here. I am trying to skirt around the CHARGING issue. I am not sure if it even applies to the context I have used. Last I heard it was not illegal to own a set of guages and maybe even not to check one;s own pressures. Its just not cosch to purchase and handle gas containers unlicensed.... RIght??? With that said..

The long and short is that the unit turned out to be about 10lbs low (Based on a GAS FAIRY who cames by's estimation when he packed his jug up to leave) Thats a SH!tPile of refrigerant when you are talking something that costs an a/c repair company about 200$ to purchase 25lbs. I think the units come charged with about that much as well.... So where the hell is it leaking???!?! I had actually used a soap and water mixture on the live valves and service low valve to check them prior to applying gauges and no bubbs. So you think the high pressures have actually ruptured a coil??? I wont hesitate to spectulate that Tappan, or whatever the name of the mother company ( Idontrecall) is manufactures units with DEFECTIVE VALVES. But I just dont think they were leaking unless the (10lb) low pressures allowed for the leak to stop and only occurs higher?!?! Where to look and how...? Anyone

 

Lets start with charging in heating. this is done by weighing in the refrigerant, not checking superheat and subcooling. Operating pressure charts can get you close.

Second, so you were low on refrigerant....per your "gas fairy". Most have had some knowledge.....DIDN'T DO A LEAK SEARCH?! This is done most effectively IMO with an electronic leak detector (refrigerant sniffer). Most leaks I find are in the indoor coil.

You have come to a point that if you do have a leak you need to call a pro. Not only to effectively find the leak without spending the $400 for the type of leak detector I use but also to properly repair the leak if there is one. (don't want to speculate)

Is section 608 technician certification required in order to purchase R-410A?
HFC refrigerant substitutes that do not contain an ozone-depleting substance (such as R-410A or R-134a) are not covered under the refrigerant sales restriction. Therefore, section 608 technician certification is not required in order to purchase HFC refrigerant substitutes that do not contain an ozone-depleting substance. It remains illegal to knowingly vent HFC substitutes during the maintenance, service, repair, or disposal of appliances.

In order to maintain, repair, or service stationary equipment, technicians must pass a test demonstrating proper handling of ozone depleting refrigerants and knowledge of EPA refrigerant regulations.

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/down...tSheet2010.pdf

 

Well you really pointed out some interesting regulations there. So whats all the hubbub with 410 gas. Why is the supplier grieving me about liscensing on this one still. Are they just ignorant, or I am guessing there may be state laws appplicable as varied...? But really, all I could discern from those links is that I am free to work on and charge my unit with 410a gas I purchase without a specific required license to do any of it - as long as I dont intentionally release gas and then I get it.... Did I miss..

Does that free us up to discuss 410a charging full bore here now? Cause I could really stand some good education and hair splitting with some nice solid folks wishing to help (like you)

BTW. I was pretty sure it was a low charge once I saw the gas bill. The damn backup had been running for 40 days or so jackin my gas up, all along I thought the heat side was fine. My gas furnce backer is a small one so once its running for the year there is no smell or indication it is in service. The HP is 3ton, the furnace is 75Kbtu. I think the HP puts out more than the gas in fairly moderate temps// LOL. I somewhat wish I had gone 100 but whatever, the point was never to use the stuff at 80%....

Thanks for the reply.. Yes in my past experience, and simply as an observer in many conditions, I seem to recall many a/c techs in different scenarios always winding up around the evap coil with a sniffing device pinpointing a leak. So I am guessing that perhaps if this does occur in higher frequency than other system failures, perhaps it is due to past coil freezes stressing the metal tubing on the air handler ev coil....? Just doesnt seem like I have seen many leaks detected on conderser coils. Perhaps I am mistaken. EITHER Way the pressures the 410a runs at understandably challenge, and I am certain any substandard construction, design, or application would give tendency to this... HOwever, I still need to rule out the valves again. Just releasing the "service port" the damn valve stem did not want to seat properly without a good giggle. SO ONCE these are again ruled out I guess the search goes to the remainder of the system. However, it does not seem like much of a search?!?! All you have is 2 coils and some tubing. Good money says its not the tubing. So short of a missile in the ext coil (which IS possible), its gonna be the evap coil somewhere in the solders on the bend connections has probably been stressed, pressed blown out and starting to seam rupture. ( My Guess). You are correct I dont have any sniffers other than this honker on my face So ya know, I checked the valves prior to even checking the refrgierant so I know they werent the leak. You may be correct about hiring a pro now. The only alterantive for my would be to carteblanche pump it down, remove the coil, and take it for service. I could gas it at mayber 125 psi myself, but that may not produce the leak, and it may not be the evap coil.. Sucks again to be on the outside of this one..

 

Final Update. So there was a leak in the evaporator coil. ALL IS A POS. I really was not aware or did not suspect the issues till the condenser fan failed and I started asking around. Apparently ALL HVAC residential equipment is made like SH!T these days. You should have seen this coil.!!! Looked like a rusted up car sitting in the SE... LOL. I would have never suspected. All those years working on older units round family homes. WHY WOULD ANYONE MAKE An EVAP COIL OUT OF fast oxidizing materials (metals that rust)!?!?!?! This has got to be a redo of the auto industry of the 70's... Tappan warranty did kick nicely as was in the last of the 7 years of the coil and using a warranty vendor the part was free at least. Still 475 to replace labor, and worth it... Garbage...... I hear even Carrier coils rust away these days....

I need help on some ducting anyone that knows I am posting in the appropriate area. Thinking of changing to FlexDuct rather than retape and wrap...

 

Trane makes an all aluminum coil