wait... heat pump cooling issues

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Old 08-19-11, 07:48 PM
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wait... heat pump cooling issues

Hi,

I am having an issue with my York Heat/cool system and wondering if anyone can help me out.

First off my battery went dead in the therm 2 days ago so I changed it, not sure if this is related since problem only started today and it ran fine yesterday.

Today the system is starting up for a few minutes then the therm clicks once and says wait... few minutes after clicks again and the fan shuts off.
Stays off for a bit then starts that cycle again...

Earlier it was different, just went on wait and stayed there until I got home and the house temp was 24 and the therm was set at 21.5... I turned off the system, closed main breakers and air handler breakers then back on again. Still had the wait... until I think put the fan on the Fan on setting, after a minute or so the wait... went away and compressor turned on...

This is making me worried that my compressor is failing but then again it worked fine until today and cools well when it is running...

can someone please give me some help with this and what I may check for??

Thanks,

Robby
 
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Old 08-19-11, 09:04 PM
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Sounds like a low voltage short...
I'd start with the stat. Verify that a wire is not bridging the gap between 2 terminals causing a short. (this does not include R and RC)

Then I'd check outside.


When heat pumps have this problem the short is commonly the 24VAC wire to the reversing valve melted to the hot gas line in the outdoor unit.
 
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Old 08-20-11, 04:25 AM
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Hi thanks for the reply, my thermostat is a honeywell digital with the wires connected to the backplate with female connectors then then therm has male pegs that fit into them so it doesn't look like any of the wires are loose...

my pump is a York and there is no other component casing like the image... only way to get to the insides is from the top through the fan blades (ouch) or bottom that I can see anyway... how would I check for that reverse valve wire issue?
 
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Old 08-20-11, 08:00 AM
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I have seen the male pegs bend and miss the female pegs on the subbase. Do yours appear straight?

Define your use of Component Casing. Are you posting that you have no thermostat wire between the outdoor unit and house or that your outdoor unit does not have a control panel in the outdoor unit? (both statements shoud be incorrect)

A few tests can be performed at the stat to help identify the short...

Does this problem occur with the stat mode set to Off and fan in Auto? (possible R wire problem)

Fan ON and Mode Off? (G wire problem)

Fan Auto, cooling setpoint 5 degrees above room temperature, stat in cool mode (O wire problem)

Does it pass the above tests and fail when calling for cooling? (Y wire problem)
 
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Old 08-20-11, 04:20 PM
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Is it possible that the filter would have just cause that problem?? I just replaced the filter even though there wasn't that much dirt in it and systems been working normal since... what is the normal life span of a filter? It was replaced before we bought the house in March so it's only like 5 months old...
 
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Old 08-20-11, 04:27 PM
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I do thinkn there is a control on the pump but just not easy to get to unless I can take a side panel off that i didnt notice...

Issue was when:
Fan - Auto
System - Cool
Room temp 22 +
Set to temp 21.5 or less
System would turn on then a few minutes later, compressor would shut off, display would be wait... on therm and then the fan would shut off for a few minutes.
approx 5 min later it would cycle on again and do the same thing...
However so far after changing the filter it seems to be cycling normally with no wait... so I will keep an eye on it and keep you posted.
The tests you spoke about wout these be done with a meter? and at which terminals?
thanks!
 
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Old 08-20-11, 04:28 PM
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Possibly a loose wire affected by the change in static pressure.

The tests that I posted would be performed by setting the stat with the listed demands to send 24vac to various wires.
 
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Old 08-20-11, 04:46 PM
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Ohh ok well the scenario I explained above was what was happening, not sure which that would indicate... as far as replacing the filter, is there anything that could be in normal operation that could be affected by this or should I be planning a service call?? would a lack of airflow to the blower unit cause a shutdown of the pump if maybe there is not enough temp transfer to the coolant or something??
 
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Old 08-20-11, 04:54 PM
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I think it's a loose wire but a service call might be a good idea.

It is usually a good idea to get the drain blown out, pan tablets put in the primary drain pan, and rinse the outdoor unit annually as well.
 
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Old 08-20-11, 05:34 PM
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how much of this servicing could I do myself? Cleaning and such? Is there some type of PM guide I could refer to on what a DYIer could do to save time for the service man and thus money?

where could the loose wire be located? inside air handler?
 

Last edited by robbyaube; 08-20-11 at 05:35 PM. Reason: forgot a question
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Old 08-20-11, 11:27 PM
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You might google for manual options.

Is the thermostat located above the air intake?
 
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Old 08-21-11, 05:40 AM
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yes it is just above one of the intakes on the main floor, there is another one up the hall from that one as well.
 
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Old 08-21-11, 07:30 AM
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If a control wire is affected by static pressure it is in the airflow. (It could be a coincidence)

When stripping back the brown insulation that encases the bundle of stat wires people often cut too deep and cut into the insulation protecting the individual stat wires.

Since this intermittant problem is not acting up now we cannot perform the isolation tests that I posted of earlier. C or chasis is shorting to R, O, G, or Y.
 
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Old 08-21-11, 05:00 PM
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Well that was short lived, problem just started again tonight... so same variables:

System = Cool
Fan = Auto
Room Temp = 22.0
Set to temp = 22.0

System comes on (click click) one click for fan and one for compressor from what I can hear. then seconds later click and compressor shuts off then the fan shuts off approx 30 sec later.... cycle goes on and on... im home to troubleshoot so let me know what to do and i'll try my best.
thanks!
 
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Old 08-21-11, 05:57 PM
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If the stat is what is shutting the unit down then it is probably a bad stat or the tolerances are too close.
 
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Old 08-21-11, 06:14 PM
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So the stat would not receive like a shut down order from the other components if something wasn't working right? What would be a typical plan of action as far as troubleshooting this type of issue and what do you mean when you say the tolerances are too close?
thanks for any help you can provide me... I would hate to have a tech come out here for a silly thing that I could fix myself...
It is definitely the stat giving the signal though because I hear the clicks and that extra click that shuts down the compressor is a new one that only started when this problem did, normally it's always click click for on and the same for off when the temp is reached. only question that remains I guess is why is the therm giving that command???
 
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Old 08-21-11, 06:15 PM
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sounds like it is goin off on high pressure to me, from what i have learend in school thats what it sounds like to me
 
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Old 08-21-11, 06:26 PM
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I just placed it on Fan - only for about a half hour, placed it on cool again approx 2 min ago and it's going well for now, it just completed a normal cycle and just shut down "normally". Im going to see what happens next time it comes on... what would going off on high pressure mean exactly?
 
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Old 08-21-11, 06:26 PM
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high pressure typically is manual reset, not auto reset. The stat will not receive a signal from a component that will cause it to shut down. the troubleshooting would be to remove the R O Y G wires from stat and wire nut together. this will run a/c. if it still shuts down shortly after then it is not the stat. The stat is only a switch that tells the unit to turn on or off.
 
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Old 08-21-11, 06:37 PM
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So wich of these wires have live power in them the R? should I shut off the breaker before doing this? And just to be clear, I take all four wires above and tie them together...

so in your opinion, if a component was failing, the system would just keep running until it failed? the thermostat has no communication with the system other than telling it what to turn on and off... no feedback on state ect..
 
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Old 08-21-11, 06:57 PM
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R is 24V hot, shutting the inside unit off would be a good idea. & not in my opinion, but the simple fact is that the stat is just a switch and does not communicate with or receive feedback from other components. Some heatpumps use a L signal to indicate a fault at the stat but this only to turn on a light or indicator to indicate there is a problem with the heat pump itself, but it does not change the function of the stat.
 
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Old 08-21-11, 07:17 PM
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Ok thanks for the info, i am going to test this out further... I have the old york analog stat the prev owner left me, so maybe i could hook that in to see if there is improvement, if so ill have to buy a new stat.. is it possible that the change of batteries in the stat could have caused a change in programing that could cause this? According to the stat manual, a wait message indicates the minimum off period of the comp but like I said I had never seen this before in normal op...
so to wire the old stat back in, is it fairly simple? wire color to coded terminal...?
 
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Old 08-21-11, 08:12 PM
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"wait" is a min. off period in the stat. But it should not turn on and then off within in seconds. If it is in "wait" then it should not turn on at all.
 
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Old 08-22-11, 04:13 AM
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yeah and the wait is coming on sometimes randomely, like I tried to turn it on during the night and that time the wait came on right away and nothing came on, most of the time though the system comes on normally and the wait is not on. then a few seconds or minutes later, wait comes on and the comp shuts down then the fan shuts down a few seconds later.... its like the wait is causing a stop command just like when the temp is reached but the sequence is delayed. Normally when temp is reached, both comp and fan off commands happen together but in this case they are seperated...
any idea on if the wiring on the analog therm differs from the digital one? I think im going to pop that one in and see if things are more normal...
 
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Old 08-22-11, 05:36 AM
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Does your air handler have a low voltage fuse?
2 spade connectors and a 5 amp fuse can be used to protect the transformer if you do not have a low voltage fuse in use.

I like hvactechfw's test but it can damage your transformer if you do have a short unless a low voltage fuse is in use.

The stat would be the easiest fix if it is the problem.

I have seen Honeywell stats act this way when a short is present.
 
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Old 08-22-11, 07:56 AM
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If there is a short, I would assume that the same behavior would occurr with the analog stat right. Though it will be harder to detect since it doesn't show me a digital state I should be able to rule out the stat as the culprit if no problems occurr... should there be a short, the same behavoir should happen regardless of the stat installed I would imagine... What I may do is leave the digital stat where it is and just put the analog over it so I can get an exact reading of the room temp with digital readout.
does this seem like a sensible way to start?
As far as located a low voltage fuse, where would I find that in a York air handler? Near the two breakers that are on the unit?
 
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Old 08-22-11, 04:31 PM
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Honeywell digital stats can open the circuit fast enough to protect the fuse (or transformer if a fuse is not present).

An analog stat will not open the circuit and can smoke the transformer if a short is present.

York air handlers should have a fuse or low voltage breaker in use.

This is a control board from a York with a 5 amp fuse...


This York air hander has a low voltage breaker...

 
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Old 08-22-11, 04:42 PM
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I would turn off power to the air handler, write down the current terminal = wire combination in use, and unwire the stat. Pull the stat wire from the wall far enough to examine the stat wire for the damage. Separate the stat wires a little for better inspection.

I would also check the stat wires at the air handler. Verify that the connections are not loose and verify that they won't short to each other.

It could just be a bad stat.
 
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Old 08-23-11, 08:23 AM
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I installed the old York analog stat last night and ran the system all evening and overnight with no issues. Went to local hardware store and bought a new honeywell rth7400D to replace the one we have. This is now in place and it tests ok so far but i'll know more overnight and tomorrow as the temp will call for AC again, it's only like 20 out there today : )
The new one had an extra setting in the programming though item 270... set it to electric backup so hopefully i don't have an issue when heating season starts... I will let you all know how it goes in a few days.
Thanks for all your help and I will keep the troubleshooting info for future reference!!
 
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Old 08-23-11, 08:59 PM
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I hope it works great.
 
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