operation question

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  #1  
Old 11-28-11, 10:43 AM
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operation question

Hello
I live in Houston Texas. i just purchased a house with a heat pump and gas furnace emergency heat. Last night i had the tstat set at 68 and the heat pump was running. I bumped the temperature to 70 and the inside unit turned off and the em heat came on. I noticed while the furnace was warming up the outside unit was still running. It actually ran the entire time the furnace was on. Should the heat pump turn off when em heat kicks on? Also while the furnace was warming up the outside unit started making a high pitch whistle and the whistle continued until the unit cycled off. The rest of the night the heat pump maintained the temperature and made no funny noises. Is all this normal

Thanks
Jason
 
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  #2  
Old 11-28-11, 11:42 AM
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Definately not normal, the heat pump and gas furnace should never run at the same time. as far as the problem goes... I'm guessing its a digital tstat, with multistage capabilities. Seems like if you have a 3 degree differential between the set temperature and the actual temperature for stage 2, the tstat tells stage 2 to come on when there is a 3 degree difference on the tstat temps. remove the tstat from the wall and see if the white wire is going to W2. it should be going to E or AUX. lemme know what u find
 
  #3  
Old 11-28-11, 02:41 PM
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it should never run at the same time as the HP, we need to know what model stat you have, if there is a dual fuel kit, model and serial numbers of the outdoor and indoor unit. Some pictures would also help.
 
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Old 11-28-11, 06:01 PM
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ok its a white rodgers digital non programable model number 1f89-211. The red is going to red, green to green, orange to orange, yellow to yellow, blue is going to a c, white is going to w2, black is going to e
 
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Old 11-29-11, 03:29 AM
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do you know if there is a dual fuel kit? can you post pictures of the gas furnace and the HP? Also need the model numbers of furnace and HP
 
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Old 11-29-11, 10:39 AM
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The evap is american standard looks like manufacture date 1992. The furnace model says manufactured for air star model 5gh 100 n54r5. Looks like single fuel. The Ouside unit is a carrier serial number 3006e34366. Model 25hbr348a300. There is a box on top of the evap that says add on heat pump system.










 

Last edited by hvactechfw; 11-30-11 at 10:31 PM.
  #7  
Old 11-30-11, 04:33 AM
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Jpro

The situation you describe may have been an anomaly and might never occur again.

Do you have an outdoor temp sensor? What model thermostat?
What was the outside temperature when this event occurred?

The situation as described could have been a defrost call. Doubtful though. It bears watching and if this event occurs again at moderate outside temps, then this would suggest issue with your controls.

On my DF system, I have my backup furnace locked out on setback/recovery at outside temp above 32 degrees.

Post back if situation reoccurs.

IMO
 
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Old 11-30-11, 11:08 AM
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I can make it happen 1 way consistently. when its on regular heat if i bump the temperature up 3 degrees it calls for emergency heat, but it wont turn the outside unit off. i dont think its defrost because it will do it as quickly as bumping the temperature up, even if the system was off. If i switch to emergency heat the furnace only runs. so its only in the regular heat mode that it does this. It is a white rodgers heat pump stat. no outside temp sensor that i can see anywhere.

thanks for the advice
 
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Old 11-30-11, 01:42 PM
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jpro

Get the exact mdl number of your thermostat.

Not certain but your description sounds as if you have a heat pump thermostat, not a dual fuel thermostat.

Another possibility as mentioned by previous posters is if you do have a dual fuel stat that it is not wired correctly.

Any idea when this stat was installed? Do you have any manual or supporting documents for this stat?

Post back.

IMO
 
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Old 11-30-11, 06:42 PM
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ok its a white rodgers digital non programable model number 1f89-211. The red is going to red, green to green, orange to orange, yellow to yellow, blue is going to a c, white is going to w2, black is going to e
 
  #11  
Old 11-30-11, 10:28 PM
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@tiger, a regular heat pump stat is used when there is a add on dual fuel kit as the OP said he had

@ jpro, it sounds as though your dual fuel kit may be bad ( add on HP system box.)

Just got home from work, went in yesterday @ 7:30am.... too tired to think now.
 
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Old 12-01-11, 06:15 AM
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Sorry for all the questions. I am an auto tech so i am also trying to understand the system. This dual fuel kit is it a generic part? or is it matched to the system? Is it were the decisions are made to operate switching valves and also operate the furnace? Were can i buy one? I have american home shield warranty but i had a horrible experience with an unqualified person coming out. I think i want to repair myself.

I have gotten the problem under control by changing a setting in the tstat. i changed it to 10 degrees before emergency heat instead of 2 degrees. It does not get that cold in houston so i can keep warm with the heat pump, if it gets to cold i switch over to emergency heat and run straight furnace until i get it fixed.

thanks for taking the time to assist me
 
  #13  
Old 12-01-11, 11:29 AM
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Yes. The dual fuel kit makes those decisions. Yes. It can be replaced but I would recommend getting a vision pro iaq stat which replaces your current stat and acts as the dual fuel kit as well.,! We can help you wire it up. You would need to write down all your current low volt wiring.
 
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Old 12-01-11, 12:42 PM
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Jason

I mean no disrespect but all indications and research say you have a straight HP thermostat not a dual fuel thermostat. And yes it makes a difference. Not clear if you have any other control accessories that will allow your DF system to operate as it should.

Plus your system is old and mismatched.

Carrier HP
AmStd evap coil
Air Star furnace?..

Then throw in one of those terrible third party warranty companies and what you have is a real mess.

A HW VP IAQ stat with outdoor sensor is a good idea but that stat is pricey and I certainly would not want AHS to be involved in the install.

I've said my piece.

You may want to just try to limp along until you are forced to get a correctly sized matching system from a reputable dealer. I would not recommend spending any serious $$$ on existing.

IMO
 
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Old 12-01-11, 03:03 PM
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I mean no disrespect but all indications and research say you have a straight HP thermostat not a dual fuel thermostat. And yes it makes a difference.
A regular 2H1C HP thermostat can be used with a dual fuel kit! It does not have to be a dual fuel thermostat. That is what they made the kit for on the older models. New thermostats that are Dual fuel contain the kit inside them ( or the logic to do what the kits do).
 
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Old 12-02-11, 12:59 PM
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I looked at the Honeywell kit. I like it. I dont see it as wasting money because i can use it with any future furnace upgrades i do. Am i correct?

I understand the system is currently mismatched, but it performs very well.

If i am understanding this correctly the IAQ will replace my current stat with a 3 wire stat that wires to the new box, the new box replaces the old box correct?

It looks like the old box has all the low voltage wiring to stat, furnace, and outside unit. It also looks like the switching valves are connected to it along with 110v. All of this will connect up to the new box?

I am comfortable tackling this job with your support, i just want to make sure its not retrofitting old and new boxes, that makes me uncomfortable

thanks for all the help
 
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Old 12-03-11, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jpro View Post
I looked at the Honeywell kit. I like it. I dont see it as wasting money because i can use it with any future furnace upgrades i do. Am i correct?

I understand the system is currently mismatched, but it performs very well.

If i am understanding this correctly the IAQ will replace my current stat with a 3 wire stat that wires to the new box, the new box replaces the old box correct?

It looks like the old box has all the low voltage wiring to stat, furnace, and outside unit. It also looks like the switching valves are connected to it along with 110v. All of this will connect up to the new box?

I am comfortable tackling this job with your support, i just want to make sure its not retrofitting old and new boxes, that makes me uncomfortable

thanks for all the help
You are mostly correct. The new stat has an EIM (what you are calling the box). The EIM has NO high voltage going to it. So, we need to know for sure if your current box actually has High voltage to it and if so, then what does it do. Take the cover off the add on HP kit (box) and see if on the back is a schematic. Also follow all the wires out of the kit and see what they go to. Pictures will help also.
 
  #18  
Old 12-07-11, 08:34 PM
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What are you concerned about on the wiring now?








 
  #19  
Old 12-08-11, 03:52 PM
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I just want to make sure the Honeywell kit works with this set up. the 2 large red wires and the 2 large black wires looked awkward to me. What are those 2 devices? the red wires look like som sort of inlet temperature to the evap. and the 2 black wires look like some sort of pressure sensor.
 
  #20  
Old 12-08-11, 05:38 PM
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Red wires go to a temp limit to control the gas furnace during HP defrost. The black wires go to a low pressure switch which can be put inline to the HP compressor contractors. They are not necessary for your system to properly operate but can still be used with the new setup if you wish.
 
  #21  
Old 12-08-11, 07:56 PM
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Is this honeywell kit correct ? TH9421C1004. Pex supply has it for 175
 
  #22  
Old 12-09-11, 10:41 AM
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You MUST have an outdoor sensor for this setup to work. So you can get that one and buy an outdoor sensor additionally or buy the one with the outdoor sensor in the box.
 
  #23  
Old 12-11-11, 07:56 PM
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Ok I ordered the Iaq. Last questions before the install. The temp limit switch is not needed anymore? Will the Iaq. Not need to read this sensor? And the low pressure switch is not needed either? What does this low pressure switch do now? Why is it not needed? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just curious how the technology has changed.
Last question, if these are not needed I don't want to hook them up. Is it ok to leave them in place and coil up the wires?
 
  #24  
Old 12-12-11, 02:16 PM
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The limit switch is not needed for proper operation, it can be used to help protect the system, but is not needed. The low pressure switch is not needed for proper operation, it can be used to help protect your system. Currently it keeps the outdoor unit from running if the pressures were to be below the set threshold. Are there any numbers you can read on the switch? If so, please post them. If you decide to not use them then it is ok to leave them and coil up the wires.
 
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Old 12-21-11, 12:32 PM
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Wow i got the IAQ today. Am i crazy or is this an extremley simple hook up? 3 wires to stat. 2 wires from transformer. And compressor, change over valve, blower, and back up heat and i am done.
Is this correct?
 
  #26  
Old 12-21-11, 06:16 PM
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Pretty much you are correct. Do you have any question about the hookup? Remember to shut the power off to the furnace while installing.
 
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Old 12-21-11, 09:03 PM
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Thanks. I think I will have some questions once I go in the attic and research the wires I have going to my furnace and out to my condensing unit. Also how simple is programming it? Does it really auto detect the circuits?

Thanks for all your help
 
  #28  
Old 12-21-11, 09:37 PM
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I dont use auto, I make sure everything is programmed where I want it when I do it.
 
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Old 12-26-11, 12:30 PM
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Ok Sorry to be a pest. Here is my first set of questions.
Below is the wiring in my dual fuel kit
Indoor unit
B blue
G green
R red
W white

Outdoor unit
Y yellow
R red
X2 black
O orange
T brown
B blue

On the furnace side Green will go to the G on the EIM. White will go to W2. Is red not used anymore? Were does the Blue go?

On the outside unit Yellow will go to Y on the EIM and Orange to W1 and Red goes to the R terminal. What do the rest of the outside wires go to?
 
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Old 12-26-11, 01:46 PM
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T is no longer used.
You can bring your X2 and R and C wires all the way back to the EIM instead of like it is on the schematic where splice into each other outside of the EIM.

setup values
110 = 0
172 = 2
174 = 1
176 = 1
180 = 0
190 = 0
200 = 1
210 = 0
220 = 3
240 = 5
300 = 0
340 = 0
342 = 1
345 = 2
346 = 1.0 hour
350 = 35 you can play with this option, but this is what I use for my customers mine is set at 20
360 = 50
365 = 0
370 = 1
372 = 0
379 = 0
400 = 0
580 = 0


There are more option than I have listed here, if you have any questions then please ask, but these are the main options that need to be set correctly.
 
  #31  
Old 12-26-11, 03:27 PM
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Awesome. That looks simple. Just join the red together and connect ro R and Join the Blue and connect to C.

Just curious why do the white and black connect up? What does X2 do on the HP?
 
  #32  
Old 12-26-11, 03:41 PM
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X2 is defrost tempering which means that during a defrost cycle.from the HP the gas furnace will come on temper the air.
 
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Old 12-26-11, 04:20 PM
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so does the HP signal the furnace to come on? Or does the HP just need to see that the furnace is on before it goes into defrost mode?

just curious
 
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Old 12-26-11, 04:40 PM
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It calls the furnace on during defrost cycle
 
  #35  
Old 01-02-12, 08:58 AM
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Its Up and running. I tested and all works well. The only thing i didn't test was the defrost cycle. I don't think there is a manual way to test this.

I noticed that with the old system the HP would give up after a short time and the furnace would come on. Now the heat pump runs till the room temperature is achieved. I like this much better. With setup value 350 set to 35 degrees, will the furnace run exclusively when outside temp is below 35?

Below are pictures of the install

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...010100108.jpg/



 

Last edited by hvactechfw; 01-02-12 at 09:28 AM.
  #36  
Old 01-02-12, 09:29 AM
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Yes, setting 350 controls the balance point of what temp the HP is no longer used and the aux heat IS used.
 
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Old 01-02-12, 02:59 PM
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i really appreciate all of your help.

I wish i could test the defrost cycle. If i understand it correctly the HP will shut off and the HP will signal the furnace on. Will the HP wait until the furnace comes on before it reverses to cool and defrosts?
 
  #38  
Old 01-02-12, 04:28 PM
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Defrost cycle = HP reverses flow of refrigerant and shuts off the outdoor fan and call for aux heat to supplement heat while the HP is basically operating in cooling.

Defrost
The defrost control is a time/temperature control which includes a
field selectable (quick--connects located at board edge) time
period between defrost cycles (30, 60, or 90 minutes), factory set
to 90 minutes.
The electronic defrost timer sequence is enabled when the T1
input on the board is energized. The timer starts only when the
defrost thermostat is closed and the contactor is energized.
Defrost mode is identical to cooling mode except that outdoor fan
motor stops and second--stage heat is turned on to continue
warming conditioned spaces.
To initiate defrost, the defrost thermostat must be closed. This can
be accomplished as follows:
1. Turn off power to outdoor unit.
2. Disconnect outdoor fan motor lead from OF2 on control
board, see Fig. 11. Tape lead to prevent grounding.
3. Restart unit in heating mode, allowing frost to accumulate
on outdoor coil.
4. After a few minutes in heating mode, liquid line
temperature should drop below closing point of defrost
thermostat (approximately 30F).
5. Short between speedup terminals with a flat--blade
screwdriver. This reduces the timing sequence to 1/256th
of original time. (See Table 4.)
6. When you hear reversing valve change position, remove
screwdriver immediately; otherwise, control will terminate
normal 10--minute defrost cycle in approximately 2
seconds.
NOTE: Length of defrost cycle is dependent upon length of time
it takes to remove screwdriver from test pins after reversing valve
has shifted.
7. Unit will remain in defrost for remainder of defrost cycle
time or until defrost thermostat reopens at approximately
65F coil temperature of liquid line.
8. Turn off power to outdoor unit and reconnect fan motor
lead to OF2 on control board.
25HBR

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related...ructions_2.pdf
 
  #39  
Old 01-02-12, 06:49 PM
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So when the hp calls for the furnace does the hp wait for the furnace to heat up and the blower to come on before it reverses?

The old set up had a temp sensor on the furnace output. I assumed to make sure secondary heat was on before entering into defrost
 

Last edited by jpro; 01-02-12 at 07:10 PM.
  #40  
Old 01-03-12, 03:03 AM
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no. it does not wait for the furnace to warm up and no that is not how the old one worked either. The sensor was to shut the furnace off at a set temperature and is why I said you could still use it but it was unnecessary. The blower will already be on due to a call from the thermostat for first stage heat.
 
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