Electric baseboard heater question

Reply

  #1  
Old 12-14-15, 02:40 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 14
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Electric baseboard heater question

Hi all,

We recently bought a new house and have been updating all of the baseboard thermostats when I ran into a strange situation

Some quick background. I have replaced several old 240v double pole Singer thermostats with new models without issue. All those boxes has 2 sets of wires coming in so it was very straightforward.

I now moved my attention to a room with an ancient looking GE thermostat. It is a single pole. It controls 2 baseboards which are 240v and I assum chained together somehow. The surprise was when I pulled the thermostat out and only found 1 set of wires going into the thermostat.

I have gotten to the current step in the attached picture. When I try and remove the screw between the wires with the assumption this is how I disconnect them from the thermostats, both heaters kick on. Tightening the screw turns the heaters back off.

I would love to switch this setup to double pole. Is that possible? Or is it likely the 2nd 120v hot wire is running directly to the 1st baseboard? The setup just seem strange to me so I was curious if anyone had seen this type of setup before and could describe it to me.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks for all your help guys/gals.

Name:  20151214_1418411450126934384.jpg
Views: 568
Size:  25.7 KB
 
  #2  
Old 12-14-15, 03:33 PM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Temporarily Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 5,006
Received 89 Votes on 84 Posts
is there just one cable in a that box?if there are two cables one will be the 240 volt feed the other cable is going to the heaters in which case you could install a 2 pole stat,what is the wiring configuration at the heaters ?
 
  #3  
Old 12-14-15, 05:21 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 61,483
Received 1,421 Votes on 1,314 Posts
Welcome to the forum.

The surprise was when I pulled the thermostat out and only found 1 set of wires going into the thermostat
No the surprise is working on the circuit and still finding it live.

The 240v was probably run directly to the heater(s) and a two wire switch loop was brought out of the heater to that thermostat.

Can you get fours wires to that stat...... most likely not now.
Now your problem will be to find a battery operated stat that will switch that one leg. Most electric stats require 240v at the stat which you don't have.

That GE was an old mechanical type stat. It didn't require any voltage to operate.
 
  #4  
Old 12-15-15, 01:27 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 14
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
There is only one cable in the box with a black, white and ground wire.

I have attached pictures of the heater wiring.

Heater 1 has 3 blacks wired together and 2 white/1 black. Since this room was the only one with the old GE thermostat, I think PJmax hit it on the head. 1 black and 1 white are going from the heater back to the thermostat.

Name:  1st_Heater_Left.jpg
Views: 695
Size:  38.2 KB

Heater 2 looks like a more normal setup with 2 black and 1 white/1 black.

Name:  2nd_Heater_Left.jpg
Views: 1040
Size:  32.4 KB

Any thoughts on how the 2 heaters are chained together though?

Ahh, the joys of old houses. Now to begin the hunt for a battery operated stat.

I also may think about rewiring this room next summer if there are no good stat options. The good thing is it is right above the basement where the circuit breaker is. The 1st heater sits on the floor right above the breaker location.
 
  #5  
Old 12-15-15, 03:48 PM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Temporarily Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 5,006
Received 89 Votes on 84 Posts
It's hard to tell in that heater#1 is one of those black wires from the heater element and is the black on with the whites also from the element, could there be a junction box in the cellar?
Here is a stat that should work for your application.
http://www.honeywellstore.com/store/...thermostat.pdf
 

Last edited by Geochurchi; 12-15-15 at 04:08 PM.
  #6  
Old 12-15-15, 05:08 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 61,483
Received 1,421 Votes on 1,314 Posts
Geo is two for two.

Good choice on thermostat recommendation. It will work there.
The thermostat is not connected at either heater which means there is a splice or splice box somewhere.
 
  #7  
Old 12-16-15, 07:13 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 14
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks for your help guys. One issue that I forgot to mention in the initial post was the size of the heaters.

The 2 heaters chained together is 5000W which means that the thermostat that Geo recommended is out since it can only handle 3000W at 240v. The old GE thermostat is 22A at 240V.

How can you tell which thermostats will work in this location? I have been using this Cadet thermostat for the double pole installs in other rooms.

Cadet Double-Pole 22 Amp 120/240-Volt Wall-Mount Mechanical Non-programmable Thermostat in White-T410B-W - The Home Depot

Would its corresponding single pole version work here?

Cadet Single-Pole 22 Amp 120/240-Volt Wall-Mount Mechanical Non-programmable Thermostat in White-T410A-W - The Home Depot

These guys are 22A so they would be able to handle the electricity running through them.

Is there something in particular I should be looking for in the thermostat I choose?

Also, I have some of the double pole versions that I purchased with the intent to use in these rooms. Would it be possible to just run the 2 wires through one side of the double pole, effectively making it a single pole? If so, which side?

Thanks for all of your help again guys.
 
  #8  
Old 12-16-15, 04:18 PM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Temporarily Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 5,006
Received 89 Votes on 84 Posts
I am not sure why you can't use a single pole stat,if the line is connected to L1 and T 1 connected to load, maybe one of the other Gurus can explain it.
 
  #9  
Old 12-16-15, 04:47 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 61,483
Received 1,421 Votes on 1,314 Posts
You can use either stat..... just use L1 and T1 like Geo mentioned.

Name:  T410.JPG
Views: 809
Size:  38.1 KB
 
  #10  
Old 12-18-15, 10:29 AM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 14
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks for your help guys. I will let you know how it goes and if I run into any other issues.

I'm sure I will have other questions. The electric in this house is interesting to say the least. I guess that is what you get with a house over 100 years old with lots of changes over time.
 
  #11  
Old 12-18-15, 01:37 PM
S
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 14
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I thought of one additional question.

I have seen other people on message boards suggest this, but I wasn't sure if it would work and wanted to get some input.

If you install a double pole stat in a 2 wire setup using L1 and T1 as suggested, the circuit is broken when the temperature is above the stat, but you lose the off capabilities.

If you hook one wire up to L2, and then use a wire to bridge T2 to L1, and then have the 2nd wire connect to L2, wouldn't this give you the off capability again of the double pole stat? if the user turns the stat to off, the circuit is broken between L2 & T2 and if the stat is on a temperature lower then the room, it would be broken between L1 and T1.

Does this sound like it would work? Are there any issues with setting up a double stat this way with 2 incoming wires?

Thanks for your help guys as always.
 
  #12  
Old 12-18-15, 01:43 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 61,483
Received 1,421 Votes on 1,314 Posts
Yes... that will work. Is it necessary... no.

On a two pole thermostat both switching contacts are mechanically forced off/open when the stat is in off mode.
 
  #13  
Old 12-18-15, 02:51 PM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Temporarily Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 5,006
Received 89 Votes on 84 Posts
What is it you are trying to accomplish with this?
 
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: