Hybrid vertical heat pump: blower motor problems.

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Old 09-24-17, 02:11 PM
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Hybrid vertical heat pump: blower motor problems.

When I researched how to repair condo HVAC I found this forum.The hybrid(?) unit in my High-rise condominium unit has broken down and I have suffered from no air conditioning and heat for almost 2 years. I expect a new born and I can't wait anymore. Please help.<br />
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The air conditioning unit won't start up at all. The management of the building are not helpful at all and they just asked me to contact their contractor for service. The technician came and told me that the whole unit have to be moved out to check out what went wrong. They said that it can't be done because the valve to turn off the water supply was broken and that I need to find a plumber to get it fixed first.<br />
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I hired a plumber and was given to understand that they need two working days to change the valve (s) and it would cost me one to two thousand dollars. They finally charged me $400 and removed the hoses and used two stopper caps to shut off the water supply temporarily.I tried to troubleshoot the problems and I found a 15 mfd capacitor at the lowest compartment of the unit but it seems alright. I put it in another same HVAC and it was working. According to the schematic diagram there should be another capacitor regulating the motor start up but I couldn't find it inside the top compartment. So it has to be inside the middle compartment behind the condenser. However, I have no idea how to open up the middle compartment. It seems that I might have to take the whole unit out from the housing but after several attempts, I can only move it out a bit (about 3 to 4 inches) and no more.<br />
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I know there are a lot of possibilities of the breakdown of the HVAC. It could be a faulty board (fan control board ?) or a bad contactor (relay) , a broken fan or just a fan capacitor. But the capacitor is simply out of reach.<br />
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Any suggestions and experience are welcome

 

Last edited by ezpoppy dunno; 09-24-17 at 02:20 PM. Reason: wrong format
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Old 09-24-17, 02:45 PM
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We need to see some pics. What is the make and model number ?
 
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Old 09-24-17, 10:39 PM
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This is some type of FCU (fan coil unit) using the buildings heated or chilled water. These are custom units and can be hard to service without being on-site.

Pictures could help. http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...-pictures.html
 
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Old 09-25-17, 03:56 AM
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Some pictures of the unit and schematic attached
 
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Old 09-25-17, 04:08 AM
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Looks like a CGC Hybrid Vertical stack Heat Pump<br />
Innkeeper/Homekeeper<br />
Models: IKV008
 
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Old 09-25-17, 06:36 AM
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That unit isn't going to function without the loop lines connected. I see at least one hanging out of the front of the unit disconnected. Why are you looking for a capacitor when the unit has no heat transfer medium?
 
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Old 09-25-17, 08:02 AM
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He explained why the loop lines are open. They are replacing the valves as it appears the unit needs to be removed from the wall to service the blower motor.

The cap with the two red and one black wire is the compressor cap.
The primary cap for the blower motor will have two black and one brown wire on it.

Service info....
bulldogheatpump/2016/01/vertical-stack-standard-cab-only.pdf
bulldogheatpump/2016/01/IK-HK-vertical-stack-standard-w-ERV.pdf
 
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Old 09-25-17, 09:36 AM
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As I have mentioned in my original post, the hose were disconnected from the valve by the plumber. It has to be done first such that the cabinet can be moved out to look for the capacitor.
 
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Old 09-25-17, 09:42 AM
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Exactly, the compressor cap has been tested and it is in working condition. Just have to open up to look for the fan capacitor.

Looks like there is shim/spacer I have to remove first and may be levelers to be adjusted to allow some more room to take the cabin out. (CGC installation check list refers http://www.cgc-group.com/members/pdf/IK_HK_Vertical.pdf )
 
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Old 09-25-17, 10:12 AM
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Same link I left but now there is a different company name on the unit.
 
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Old 09-25-17, 06:42 PM
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Seems like the compressor should still run with a bad blower run cap.

That picture of the control board looks like you have no power. Is the breaker off?
If the blower cap was bad I would expect a trouble code 2, 4, or 5.
Do you have any trouble code lights?

Your diagram has a power LED. Is it lit when the breaker is reset?
 
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Old 09-30-17, 05:33 PM
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Thanks for everybody's contribution.
I discovered that the laminate flooring was laid after the HVAC was installed. The 3/4 inches height laminate has blocked the way and the cabinet couldn't be forced out from the chassis. I cut part of the flooring and was thus able to get the cabinet out.

I have examined the two capacitors and both of them were found to be working well. I have checked the 24 volts transfer and the output is around 28 volts and I assumed that it is okay too.

When I get to the blower motor and tested it with a digital multi-meter, I found something strange. There are 4 wired out from the blower fan - Green(ground), blue, brown and black. I found reading when tested with brown and black only. There was nothing when I tested blue wire with all other wires.I didn't see a common white wire and I have no idea which is which. What is the blue wire for ?Name:  19149280_1975349379386816_3545764777579598102_n.jpg
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I post here some pictures which I have taken today. Please enlighten me as to how I can further test and diagnose the HVAC problem.
I will replace the fan if necessary. However I couldn't find this particular model online in North America. Is there any compatible fan unit I can use to replace it ?

update : found one replacement part online.
 
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Old 09-30-17, 06:23 PM
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That motor uses the EUR wiring color code.

Blue is neutral or your common.
Brown is the main winding.
Black is the start/run winding.

You should measure continuity (resistance) between any two wires.
 

Last edited by PJmax; 09-30-17 at 09:52 PM. Reason: corrected color coding
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Old 09-30-17, 07:18 PM
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Thanks for your prompt reply. There is continuity between brown and black, Blue has no continuity with either of the other two.
Does it mean that the blower motor is dead ?

Others suggest :
Europe and UK
Brown (hot) blue (common) Green/Yellow (ground)
what about black ? what is start winding ?
 
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Old 09-30-17, 09:51 PM
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Sorry.... I had the color code wrong and changed it in my reply.

Yes.... your motor has an open neutral line. More than likely it overheated and the thermal safety opened and never reset.

Your motor has two windings. A start/run winding and a main winding. The capacitor controls the start/run winding.
 
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Old 10-01-17, 04:53 AM
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Is there a way to reset the thermal safety please ?
 
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Old 10-01-17, 04:59 AM
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Size:  20.1 KBThere are three capacitors inside the HVAC. One inside the lower compartment for the compressor. Near the fan housing, there are two. I think C1 3 mfd is for start-up and what is the C2 8mfd for.?
 
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Old 10-01-17, 01:46 PM
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Your motor is BAD. It MUST be replaced.

C4 is the compressor capacitor.
C1 is the fan start/run capacitor.

The others are used for different fan speeds.
 
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Old 10-01-17, 02:30 PM
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Hi, Pete,

I concur with you. I will buy an replacement and report back. Hopefully, this will solve the problem.

Thanks
 
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Old 10-02-17, 02:05 PM
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Searching around for the blower model. Distributors in Ontario Canada will sell to licensed electricians only. I can't think of other ways to acquire one. I have written to the original manufacturer EMC in Spain but no reply. Their business in North America is under the brand name of S & P. They have motor of the same configuration. Would it be easier to buy one in the USA.

I have also contacted several motor repair companies. They all advised to buy an OEM motor. They either refused to repair or said that it costs up to $1200 to do the job coz it is very time consuming.

Any chance to order online from a USA supplier.

Thanks
 
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Old 10-04-17, 06:20 PM
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Replacing an OEM Blower motor with other brands

In my other post, I mentioned that I have to replace a fried centrifugal blower motor for my HVAC. I searched around but I couldn't find a place to buy one. Several distributors refused to sell to individual end users. The stated that they will only sell to licensed contractors. They did not even answer any technical questions.

Rewiring/repairing of the motor costs $800 to 1200 plus tax which I think it is a bit too expensive. HVAC company asked $1500 minimum plus tax to replace the motor and will not guarantee that it will work.

I spoke with a electrical technician and he said that it may be okay to modify the system to use a motor of specifications close if not identical to the original motor.

My OEM motor has the following specs :

Single inlet forward curved blower 4 poles
230V 60/50Hz 3uF 440V
155w 0.70A

EU/UK color code 4 wires : black, brown, blue, green/blue

I found one manufactured by Rosenberg Fans Canada ltd with the following specs :

Front curved centrifugal blower
model a. 230V 60Hz .29kW 1.25A or
model b. 230V 50Hz .19kW 0.85A
3 uF 400V

Brown, blue, black, orange, white green/blue wires

The fan itself may cost me a few hundreds. If it is the only problem, I save myself a great deal. No matter what it is the first step I have to do to diy repair the system.

Please advise whether the specifications are close enough for the replacement.

Thanks.
 
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Old 10-04-17, 07:33 PM
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I've renamed your original thread and will be joining this one to that one to keep everything together. hybrid-vertical-heat-pump-blower-motor-problems

For the most part.... it's not going to be the electrical specs that cause the problem.... it's going to be physical dimensions.

Here's what's needed......
Frame size
CW or CCW shaft rotation
shaft length and diameter
mounting method
RPM's

If your choice B looks like the same mounting..... the electrical specs almost look fine.
You have 240vac @ 60hz not 50hz power.
 
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Old 10-04-17, 08:43 PM
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Hi, Pete

It looks like both centrifugal blower motors have similar shape and the measurements are very close. I may need to adjust some screw holes if the replacement unit can work on my HVAC unit.

Not sure about CW or CCW shaft rotation. I will have to check later.

(original says - Clockwise Rotation Viewing Inlet (Single Inlet Only) replacement is " clockwise viewed from the inlet side " So can I assume that they are identical ?

As for shaft length and diameter, I think it shouldn't be a problem. The motor has an impeller mounted and the whole thing is covered in a casing. I guess I have to worry about the wind outlet hole (rectangular) and see if it can be mounted onto the cabinet directly with the adapter. Not sure if I am correct.

I am concern about the Hz, Amp etc. It looks like the 60 Hz unit has higher kW (0.29)and amp (1.25) compared to 155 watts and 0.7 of the original(not working) one. The 50Hz has a .19kW and .85A. Is it true and the 60Hz unit will generate more heat. So which one is of better match, please advise.

As for rpm, they are within the range of 1365 and 1480. The original one is 1400. So they are pretty close.

Thank you for your assistance.
 
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Old 10-05-17, 01:37 PM
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Rosenberg isn't available for sale. Looking to find a compatible one.

B45230 Fasco Centrifugal Blower Assembly 460 CFM 208-230 Volt 2 Speed 1600 RPM
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It seems pretty close but finally discover that it is a shade pole blower which is different from a PSC blower.
There is no capacitor on the Fasco so I don't know if it works. The salesperson said hook up white to blue and black to black. He cannot guarantee that it will work.

Any suggestions please ?
 

Last edited by PJmax; 10-05-17 at 07:40 PM. Reason: added pic
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Old 10-05-17, 07:43 PM
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I combined the two threads. I posted pictures of the two blowers in question. The new one looks quite a bit larger than the old one. The new one looks to be a dual wheel type.
 
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Old 10-06-17, 06:41 PM
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I called the supplier, they said the new one is shaded pole motor. He believed that mine is PSC motor. He wasn't sure that electrically/electronically, the new fan will work with circuit board. He added that I can try using the higher speed output i.e. just black and white.
Does it make sense ?

The output vent measurements of the new fan is almost equivalent to the adapter hood opening. There is enough room to fit in the new fan.
 
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Old 10-06-17, 07:25 PM
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Your board just outputs 240v. That motor will work fine electrically. As far as how much air it will move in that application.... you won't know until you try it.
 
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Old 10-07-17, 11:04 AM
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Finally, I found a motor replacement which is almost identical to the original equipment. I will place an order on receiving the purchase invoice. Expect to receive it in a few weeks.

After installation, I will report back for other viewer's future reference.

I have to express my appreciation to the contributors especially Pete (Pjmax the moderator) who took the time to give me support and suggestions. I have really learn a lot from here. I am new to posting on a forum and may have messed up the materials here. Thanks for making things right and in order.

It is still a bit early whether I can bring the HVAC back to life after replacing the dead motor. If I need further assistance, I will be back and ask.

Thanks all.
 
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Old 11-08-17, 11:14 PM
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I have received my new motor a week ago. The size of the motor is slightly bigger and heavier than the original one but it fits onto the mount adapter and the cabinet.
Upon wiring according to the original schematic, (both have the same EU/UK color code wiring- I assumed) the motor won't rotate at all and I heard humming sound only. I turned the rotor blades and the motor started turning but at a slow speed.
I then switched the wiring by connecting blue (Common) and Brown to AC230V (L1/L2). I switched on the system and the motor turned on accordingly. However, the speed of the motor seemed much slower than the original one and the air coming out from the unit was a lot weaker. I have another exactly the same unit in my apartment so I know the difference right away.
I wonder the supplier have a different color code although the motor has the same 4 color wires. (green, blue,brown and black) I have contacted them but so far they did not respond.
Should I try connect the wiring with the black or brown as common/neutral ? Will it burn the motor if I connect it to test this way ?

BTW, I have tested with 2 capacitors of the same value 3uf so I am pretty sure that the caps are good.
Thanks
 
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Last edited by ezpoppy dunno; 11-08-17 at 11:17 PM. Reason: add some details
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Old 11-09-17, 09:17 AM
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There is never a guaranty a replacement subbed motor will perform in the same way as the old one did. I don't recommend trying different wiring combinations unless you are willing to burn the new motor windings.
 
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Old 11-09-17, 01:20 PM
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Hi, Pete,
Thank you for your reply.

I will check out the proper wiring with reference to the following video :

https://youtu.be/UgRHf5UP574?list=WL
 
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