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Heatpump ...I'm lost and out of ideas


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10-15-17, 04:31 PM   #1 (permalink)  
Heatpump ...I'm lost and out of ideas

This Summer I replace the blower motor and the blower on the furnace. Cooling the house with our pump was fine...slow and not as efficient as it use to be, but (14 years old Seers pump). Now summer is over heating is not working correctly the thermostat keep switching to (aux oil) after 30 minutes of pump not capable of reaching 22C from 20C.

Here is what I have done and check.
-pump is working and clean (pipe that brings heat inside the house is very hot...(cannot touch for more then 1 sec, without being burn)).
-Air filter is clean.
-I have an air filter sensor inside the ducking that register from 95% to 96%.(right before the filter)

Once I have reach the 22C(with oil) the pump can keep that temperature but instead of working for 10 minutes(last year) to keep the house at 22C it runs for 40 to 50 minutes reaching 22C. shut off for 20mintues and start back again.

My feeling. (not an expert) it looks like the pump is producing heat put it is not reaching the inside of the house. Could the plumbing be block ? What is circulating the (hot freon) from pump to radiator inside and back to pump... just pressure!! ??Many thanks for any help.PS. I already call local repair (3) . Who offered free estimate. Tech.1: New pump and installation 8500$. Did not even took is tools out. Tech.2: (2 choice) -1 new pump 7995$ , -2 repair approx 2000$ but no detail on the estimate. Tech.3: Ask on the phone the age of the pump, then answered that the pump need it to be changed. I cant find a guy that tell me detail and truth. As soon as they learn(over the phone) or see my 14 year old pump they start talking about changing it without even checking what is wrong with itů that piss me off. I know its old but if it can last even 1 year on a (descent price repair) I would prefer to do that then to change everything.

 
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10-15-17, 04:36 PM   #2 (permalink)  
Welcome to the forums.

I can't tell you you how many people just want to repair their unit to last for one more year.

If your heat pump system wasn't cooling well in the summer.... it won't be heating well in the winter either. A heat pump supplies slow heat. If the temperature in the room is 3 degrees lower than the set temperature..... the AUX heat will run. So to test just the heat pump.... set the heating temperature 1 or 2 degrees over the actual temperature.

You said the larger copper line on the condensor is hot... is that correct ?


~ Pete ~

 
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10-16-17, 10:25 AM   #3 (permalink)  
Thanks for the warm welcome !!

Yes it is the bigger copper line. The other one as a muffler on it...witch I believe to be the "filter drie"?!?!(Google search)...

I understand that the pump is a slow heating process but its 18C outside and I'm asking to raise from 20C to 22C...should be easy and faster then at -5C. I think!

OK, last night I did the test like you ask and the result was (asking 24C from 22.1C room temperature) took 34Min before aux heat came on. The temperature in the house was at 22.8C so the heat pump manage to raise 0.7C but again it was around 17C to 18C outside. I clearly remember past year the heat pump would raise the 1C or 2C by itself... at colder outside temperature.

 
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10-16-17, 11:29 AM   #4 (permalink)  
The next logical step is to have the refrigerant levels checked.


~ Pete ~

 
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10-18-17, 01:32 PM   #5 (permalink)  
ok, now the tought part...finding a trusted service tech. who could come and verify that for me... unless it could be done any other way

thanks again for the help

 
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10-18-17, 05:47 PM   #6 (permalink)  
Ask around. Family, friends, relatives..... who do they use.


~ Pete ~

 
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10-19-17, 02:11 PM   #7 (permalink)  
Can you tell us the temp deference across the coil?

 
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11-12-17, 03:15 AM   #8 (permalink)  
Ok here is the follow up. ask around. One friend recommended someone... call the busness, they sent a guy.
Told him the issue he then verify the pump and said out of a capacty of 4.8 your freon is now at 2.2
So for a service call of 179$ and 75$ refill. He did the job (45min)
24h later no change.. the heat pump is working , the pipe that brings heat inside the house is now very hot touching it is almost instant burn.
Call him back he then said- we will have to do a leak test 300$ + 179$ service call
-did he realy fill it up!
-could a leak leave 2.2 ?
-if I had a leak would the pipe be cold,warm or hot still ?

Can you tell us the temp deference across the coil?
do you mean
-from outside to inside ?
-from the one that come's in the house and the one that comes back out ?
-at different places on the line ?

I think you are asking me to verify where is the heat lost allong the way...


Last edited by eliteinfo; 11-12-17 at 03:28 AM. Reason: forgot info
 
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11-12-17, 08:10 AM   #9 (permalink)  
Me again , for the first time in ages...dont remember the last time. This morning I had to reset the heat pump outside to start it again ... !!!?? is this a clue...

Thanks for your help... still not enought heat from the pump reaching the insidecoil... this afternoon I'm going to install remote thermometer to see the temperature difference like "airman1994 ask.

 
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11-12-17, 08:59 AM   #10 (permalink)  
The numbers you spoke of, such as 2.2, don’t mean anything for operating pressures.
If the tech added refrigerant then the system has a leak or was misdiagnosed. Systems do not consume refrigerant, and the refrigerant does not need to be replaced or changed. It’s a sealed system.

 
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11-12-17, 09:16 AM   #11 (permalink)  
The bill says 2.5(lb..?? not sure its hand writing) freon 75$
added.


 
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11-12-17, 09:41 AM   #12 (permalink)  
I found an old bill from the last service call when it was still under warranty. in 2004 the bill says
-verify freon, 1.1 added

So this mean that the leak was there 13 years ago , and took that long to loose half of the total amount in the tank.

Question.. when you add so more freon it increase the presure ?? right
so when he had the freon 2 days ago the extra presure might made things worst, making the leak bigger.

What I dont understand is, why the pump still produce lots of heat in the copper line.

 
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11-12-17, 11:31 AM   #13 (permalink)  
I found an old bill from the last service call when it was still under warranty. in 2004 the bill says
-verify freon, 1.1 added
That's the clincher.... right there. If refrigerant was added when unit was still under install warranty.... it was not installed correctly or not charged correctly or there was a leak.

If it has operated normally from 2004 until 2016..... that would have to be a very tiny leak.

The condensor extracts heat from the outside air and then it is sent to the evaporator inside via refrigerant in the copper lines. Are you saying the large copper line is hot at the condensor but is cold when it gets to the inside air handler ?

What airman is asking for you to do is for you to measure the return air temperature going into the air handler and the conditioned air coming out of a register. No testing outside. This will marginally tell you how the system is working. The larger the temperature differential.... the greater the performance.


~ Pete ~

 
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11-12-17, 12:07 PM   #14 (permalink)  
"This morning I had to reset the heat pump outside to start it again"
Low airflow across the indoor coil can cause this.
What type of air filter do you have?
What size is the air filter?
Is the air filter clean?

Can you get to the indoor coil and take a picture of BOTH sides of the indoor coil?
The outlet side of the indoor coil often looks clean but the inlet side can have a large amount of dirt.

 
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11-12-17, 02:00 PM   #15 (permalink)  
Follow up. At around noon I stop the pump and put the thermostat to auxiliary heat (oil). and now at 15:30 I was outside and in the basement to take some pictures to put here so that everyone would get a good ideal of what we are talking about. For the first time in years I open the compartment were compresor is. (I usualy only open the side to clean up exterior coil.) I notice that the (tank or acumulator) is so rusty top and bottom. even I (not even an amateur) would of tell the customer. The technician who came thursday didnt say a thing, he was to happy to charge his service call and the refill.

Looking at it for a while with no sound I suddenly heard a faint "isss" sound comming from somewhere... sure enought somewhere on the ext. coil at the bottom there is a leak I can hear it and since the pump as been off for 3 hours I dont think its anything else..

Anyone as any trick on how to detect the leak ? spray dishsoap an water and look for bubbles ?

 
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11-12-17, 02:08 PM   #16 (permalink)  
You're showing us rust inside the outside condensor...... ok.

Off for three hours I doubt you could hear a leak unless it was wet. An audible leak would be a large leak and the refrigerant would be gone in days.


~ Pete ~

 
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11-12-17, 02:11 PM   #17 (permalink)  
I do have to put my ear very close to the unit to hear that "iss" sound, its like a tire being deflated...could it be anything else then a leak !?!

 
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11-12-17, 02:22 PM   #18 (permalink)  
Houston204-

The interior coil was clean on both side (its a sideway W) air filter clean and I also have a airflow scensor and its at 99% so yeah that was one of the first thing I have check and done, before posting here.

Thanks anyway every post helps

 
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