help with programable thermostat to control humidfier

Reply

  #1  
Old 12-18-06, 10:32 PM
P
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 53
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
help with programable thermostat to control humidfier

I have installed a programable thermostat which is supposed to control my central humidifier as well. When I hook it up as directed, the transformer for the humidifier hums very loudly. With the wiring exactly the same and the original humidistat hooked up, everything is fine, so it is not the transformer which is the problem. Any ideas?
 
  #2  
Old 12-19-06, 04:38 AM
L
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 190
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
What is the voltage of the humidifier? I'm sure the t/stat is 24 v. Most himids I've seen are 24v but it pays to check.
 
  #3  
Old 12-19-06, 07:01 AM
Jay11J's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Posts: 18,427
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
What is the Make and Model of the t-stat you are using?

Are yo using your own transfromer for the humifier, or using the one off the furnace itself?
 
  #4  
Old 12-19-06, 03:58 PM
P
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 53
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
The thermostat is Noma brand. The transformer is a wallplug style that came with the humidifier. I don't know the voltage, but I could check if that is important. I assumed the thermostat doesn't provide voltage to the humidifier, but simply uses a relay to switch the voltage on and off between the transformer and the humidifier. Is that not correct? Thanks for your assistance so far.
 
  #5  
Old 12-19-06, 06:49 PM
N
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 125
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
check transformer output and match to humid controls,what kind of humidifier? if the only electrical control is a solenoid valve, no fan motor, and that solenoid valve operates on 24v then with your transformer plugged in take one leg up to the thermostat (depending on how the thermostat is set up, you may need to cut your rc/rh jumper to seperate transformers) and then your switch leg back down through the solenoid valve and then back to the transformer to make your circuit. you should include a Model 50 current sensing relay in that circuit hooked to your furnace fan so your not running the humidifier without the fan. I dont see why you dont just use the furnace transformer, humidifiers dont use much vA
 
  #6  
Old 12-19-06, 11:46 PM
P
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 53
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks very much to all of you for your help and for your patience. I think I understand, except for the rc/rh part. It is a flow through humidifier without a fan, so it will be just a solenoid valve which is being controled. I have it wired as you describe, with one leg from the transformer passing up to the thermostat humidifier control terminal, then a wire returning from the the thermostat/humidistat "humidifier control" terminal down to a sail switch (instead of the sensing relay), then the sail switch out to the solenoid valve. The other branch coming out of the transformer goes directly to the solenoid valve. The humidifier functions like this, but as I said in the first post, there is a very loud and ominous hum coming from the transformer. I followed the wiring instructions that came with the thermostat/humidistat very carefully. If I keep the circuit exactly the same but substitute the analogue humidistat that came with the humidfier for the electronic thermostat/humidistat, everything works fine with no hum. Is it possible that the thermostat/humidistat is feeding an electrical signal into the humidifier circuit? Maybe I don't need the humidifier transformer at all and the current is provided through the thermostat connection to the furnace? Maybe the sail switch should come before the thermostat in the circuit rather than after it? I am not very knowledgeable about all of this (if that weren't obvious from my posts ), so I don't know where to start wiring from the furnace transformer, but I guess I could give that a shot if it would help in some way. I will have to dig out a manual for the furnace, as I don't even know how to access the electricals. I should also have mentioned that I also have an EAC, although the wiring for it is completley separate. What does cutting the rc/rh jumper mean? Thanks again for the guidance. If you all think I am just too far gone to do this on my own and don't want to waste anymore of your time on it, just let me know and I will call in a pro to do it for me, or just stick with the analogue humidistat.
 
  #7  
Old 12-20-06, 09:01 AM
Ed Imeduc's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Mountain Williams Missouri
Posts: 18,386
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Wink

At the tstat that RC and RH. If you have just one transformer for the heat and AC. Then you have to put that jumper from one to the other. Now if the heat has a transformer AND the AC has a transformer then you dont put that jump from RH to RC. Some times it helps to just draw out the wire layout on paper so see if it will work out.As to where the C goes and how the R closes back to it.
 
  #8  
Old 12-20-06, 01:58 PM
G
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 51
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ed Imeduc View Post
At the tstat that RC and RH. If you have just one transformer for the heat and AC. Then you have to put that jumper from one to the other. Now if the heat has a transformer AND the AC has a transformer then you dont put that jump from RH to RC. Some times it helps to just draw out the wire layout on paper so see if it will work out.As to where the C goes and how the R closes back to it.
Now I understand that part, but would a problem with the way the RC/RH is hooked up explain a hum in the humidifier transformer though? There is no problem with anything as long as I don't have the humidfier control hooked up to the the thermistat/humidistat.
 
  #9  
Old 12-20-06, 04:42 PM
N
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 125
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
like ed said if your thermostat has a rc/rh terminal jumper then you will have to remove it(since you will now have 2 transformers feeding through that thermostat) and put your red from the furnace on rh, and the power from your humidifier transformer on rc. then take your other switched leg and run it just like your have it. i think your best bet is to scrap the transformer that came with the humidifier and just use the furnace 24 v to power the humidifier. theres no sense having two transformers.
 
  #10  
Old 12-20-06, 10:40 PM
P
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 53
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
o.k., I think I have it now. I am sorry for being so slow to catch on. WIll give it a try and let you know. Thanks.
 
  #11  
Old 12-21-06, 02:51 PM
D
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
psyche11: I'm having the same sort of problem with a Noma thermostat and this Desert Spring humidifier: http://www.desertspringproducts.com/products/humidifier.asp.

You are assuming that your thermostat is activating an internal relay to close the circuit between your plug-in transformer and the humidifier. The Noma thermostat I'm playing with (a THM501) does not do this - it uses some kind of solid-state switching scheme to connect the H1-H2 terminals and close the circuit. The problem with this is that this "dirties" the 24VAC power being delivered to the humidifier so that the rotary disks on my humidifier cannot turn. I have less current and voltage appear at my humidifier terminals than with a conventional humidistat.

This same phenomenon could be causing your transfo "hum" and also explains why when you change out the Noma the problem goes away.

Not too pleased with Noma/UPM for this... if they had used a "real" relay in their product I wouldn't have this problem!
 
  #12  
Old 12-21-06, 04:14 PM
P
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 53
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Ah, that makes sense. I wonder if having the humidistat trigger a separate relay which would in turn activate the valve (or in your case, the fan motor) would work. The relay might be less sensitive to the current it recieves than the humidfier components and it in turn would provide clean current to to those components.
 
  #13  
Old 12-21-06, 04:20 PM
N
Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 125
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
this seems to be turning into a hassle, y not just use the furnace transformer into a 4016 humidistat mounted on the return with a Mo.50. less complicated and will sense the humidity in return rather than thermostat location.
 
  #14  
Old 12-25-06, 12:22 AM
D
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Psyche11: Just out of curiosity, what is the type/model of the humidifier you are controlling? Is it just a solenoid in the humidifier that is being activated to let water flow, or something else (e.g. a fan or motor of some kind)?

I did some additional tests over the weekend and can confirm that on my setup, the Noma is able to correctly activate/deactivate a relay (I tested with a White-Rodgers 90-293Q). I still cannot make it drive the motor directly on my rotating-drum humidifier. I've e-mailed the parent company (www.upm-marketing.com) asking about this, but I suspect the answer will be that their thermostat was not designed to do this, it only supports relay or solenoid activiated humdifiers, etc. Of course, none of that mentioned in any of their literature.

With the Noma hooked up and transformer humming, are you able to make the humidifier turn on and off? Just want to rule out any kind of short that would cause the transformer to overheat and complain like that.
 
  #15  
Old 12-26-06, 02:41 PM
Ed Imeduc's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Mountain Williams Missouri
Posts: 18,386
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Wink

You are much better off to check the humidity and control the humidity. At the cold air duct with the return air. then you know just what you have
 
  #16  
Old 12-31-06, 09:15 PM
K
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I've got a buzz too

I installed a new Noma THM501 today.

http://www.upm-marketing.com/images/productID_16/THM501_Manual_Downloads.pdf

I wanted this model cause it could run a humidifier. I have a variable speed high eff. furnace. There is a HUM on the 24V power bar in the furnace in which I had the bypass humidifier previously connected. It was wired to my humidity control switch and the humidifier simply has a 24V solenoid that controls water flow during the burn cycle. I wired in the new programmable thermo; the new thermo has 2 terminals H1 H2 to connect to the humidifier. When the first burn cycle came on, the solenoid just buzzed away like crazy. The old humidistat controller may have to be re-installed, i'm not sure
 
  #17  
Old 01-01-07, 05:59 AM
Jay11J's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Posts: 18,427
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Happy New Year.

You got a single stage t-stat on your two stage furnace? (What did you have before?)

Did you run extra set of wire or had extra wire for the humidifer?

You take 24v HUM from the furnace up to H1, then H2 back to the humidifer?
 
  #18  
Old 01-01-07, 11:15 AM
D
dhs
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
In mine experience hi-ef furnaces have HUM output 120V. Check the voltage on the running furnace before you do anything.
 
  #19  
Old 01-01-07, 12:05 PM
Jay11J's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Posts: 18,427
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
True about DHS post. I think Carrier/Bryant are the only ones who has 24volts.
 
  #20  
Old 01-01-07, 10:12 PM
K
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
i have a Bryant high eff. furnace, the HUM post is 24V. I had wired an extra 2 wire line up beside my furnace thermostat to the humidifier controller so I could control the humidifier right beside the furnace thermo. Now these two wires go to the new prg. thermo. This is how I read the installation manual. "Put the original two wires to the humidifier to the H1 and H2 terminals on the new thermostat"

I now have the 24V-HUM from the furnace going to the H1 terminal and H2 back down to one post on the solenoid. The other solenoid post goes back to the 24V-COM on the furnace. This is basically how it was with old humidifier controller. I checked the volts at the solenoid, they are 23.8 when charged.
 

Last edited by kurgin; 01-01-07 at 10:17 PM. Reason: need to add answer to a prev Q
  #21  
Old 01-02-07, 05:06 AM
Jay11J's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Posts: 18,427
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Yep, you done it right. Still humms away?

Have you tried moving the valve around? I know mine did at first, then when I got it snapped into it's place the noise went away.
 
  #22  
Old 01-02-07, 11:00 PM
K
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
yeah still hums like mad, tapped the solenoid around, nothing changed. I wired the old controller back and it runs normally. I can't figure this one out. Why would the H1 and H2 just simply close the circuit when humidity is called for? I can't figure this out
 

Last edited by kurgin; 01-02-07 at 11:02 PM. Reason: need to add more
  #23  
Old 01-03-07, 06:50 AM
Ed Imeduc's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Mountain Williams Missouri
Posts: 18,386
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Wink

You will get a much better control of the humidity in the home . With the control on the return duct at the furnace. As the blower will pull air from all over the home and know what you need
 
  #24  
Old 01-03-07, 07:03 PM
K
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
so talked to upm customer rep toady. He said there was a recent batch of units that were not functioning properly. something was wrong internally with the humidity control. they are sending out a replacement face plate to correct the problem, will keep you all posted
 
  #25  
Old 01-08-07, 11:55 PM
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I have the same problem

Who do I contact to get a replacement plate for my thermostat? I have a GE drip humidifier and I am getting the same hum from the solenoid.
 
  #26  
Old 01-09-07, 07:28 PM
K
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 220
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I don't think you should use the humidifer transformer or the HUM terminal. Carrier with the Cronatherm stat warned using the HUM teminal could cause the furnace to not shut off.I can't remember how it was wired. I think you'll need the rh rc jumper next summer to get your ac running.
 
  #27  
Old 01-29-07, 08:29 PM
D
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Fix

For everyone experiencing noise/hum from your humidifier solenoid or a rotating disk motor not working correctly with your Noma/UPM thermostat (model THM501 and possibly others)....

You need to call UPM to report your problem and have them send you a no-charge replacement face plate. There appears to be a problem with the circuit that turns on the humidity and "passes through" the 24VAC power source to the humidifier terminals via the internal triac switching scheme.

I got my replacement in the mail today, hooked it up to my Desert Spring humidifier and everything works fine now.

Contact information:
1.888.GO.TO.UPM
8AM-5PM MST (Mon-Fri)
 
  #28  
Old 12-22-09, 12:31 AM
J
Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 3
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I have a Air King Wait 5000 flowthrough humidifier, Noma 52-2558-8 programmable thermostat, 3-wires running from my furnace to the tstat, a Fast-Stat 5000 using 2 of those wires, an older 1-stage gas furnace, and an A/C unit.

Everything is in working order, except that I have the HUM connected to a humidistat mounted on the return air duct, with a wall-plug class2 24vac transformer.

I want to get rid of the wallplug transformer and the separate humidistat as I'm constantly fiddling with the humidistat so that it is not too dry in my house, and not too humid so that condensation forms on my windows.

I'd like to do as suggested by 'nomore9to5' earlier and wire my HUM into the furnace transformer. If I connect the following will it work or will I cause harm?

* Rc/Rh (jumpered) to H1 in tstat.
* H2 in tstat to humidifer terminal 1
* Terminal 2 in humidifier to W in furnace

Essentially I'm looking to energize the humidifier only when heat is turned on and then activate the flow-through solenoid valve when relative humidity drops below the tstat setting.
 
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: