aprilaire issues

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Old 01-26-11, 07:11 AM
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aprilaire issues Williamson

I have an old Williamson 5 in one furnace that originally came equipped with an Aprilaire model 224 humidifier and it worked flawlessly, but what happened over the years is the plastic on it started to disintegrate, so I replaced it with a model 600. I installed the 600 in the same place as the 224 was, with a slight mod to the sheet metal. On the williamson furnace, the humidifier is situated inside the return housing compartment and the air flow over the water panel enters the supply side thru the compartment wall controlled by a simple damper.

The 600 works as designed, in that water flows down over the water panel and the excess out thru the drain at the bottom. however, I do not get any humidity into the house. One the 224, the opening was in the front middle of the unit and on the 600 the opening is on the left side of the unit. I'm thinking that's the problem, it needs air flow over the panel from the front. i'm at a loss and Aprilaire has not been any help, the CS people don't know much about my issue.

I have photos of my installation that I can e-mail, but I don't know how to post photos here. I hope someone is familiar with the Williamson furnace.

Thanks, Douglas
 
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Old 01-26-11, 12:12 PM
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ensure the bypass duct DAMPER is open, if you installed one. Have you replaced the water panel? (they need replaced annually). IS water coming out of the drain? the 600 is designed correctly, it will pull air across the panel no matter if supply or return mounted. Post pictures to a free uploading site, such as Photobucket and then link here using inset image or post the link.
 
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Old 01-26-11, 12:26 PM
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Yes, the bypass damper is open and the water panel is okay and working properly, that is, it's wet and water dripping at the drain. Right, I* took the cover off the 600, so there is no air flow constriction. Anywho, gonna see if that helps get the humid air in the house. what's surprising to me is how good the 224 worked and how bad the 600 performs. I've looked and looked for someone that has a 224 sitting around in the back room, to no avail.

Sir, about the pics, my computer skills are challenged to say the least. I do have some photos of my furnace loaded in this machine and I do know how to e-mail them to someone. If that person would be so kind to post my pics here for me douglas_rome@yahoo.com just shoot me an e-mail.

Thanks, Douglas
 
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Old 01-26-11, 12:51 PM
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check your email......................................................
 
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Old 01-26-11, 01:14 PM
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I now these furnaces, My grandparents has one.

is the air flow getting chocked off since it's going on the side?

HVAC- post photo if when you get them.
 
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Old 01-26-11, 01:58 PM
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Old 01-26-11, 02:05 PM
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That water panel looks like it needs replaced! There would have been a better way to install this, but this should still work.

HOW OLD IS THAT FURNACE!!!!!!!! YOU ARE WASTING ALL KINDS OF MONEY ON FUEL!!!
 
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Old 01-26-11, 02:58 PM
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I agree, the pad is due for a change out.

HVAC-

What other way would you install this? There is not a lot of head room on this furnace. Looking at my specs on this furnace, it stands anywhere from 60 to 65" tall.

I know this furnace is not 90%, but this thing is a tank, and will last many years.. My grandparents has it, and was put in the mid 80's.
 
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Old 01-26-11, 03:16 PM
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well, Room permitting as I guess i didn't realize the height of the unit, I would have brought a duct off the supply and mounted it on the return cabinet the way the 600 was designed to be mounted. Right now there is potentially a failure of the HUM housing like what happened to the previous one. It is in direct sight...a few inches away from the extremely hot heat exchanger...

the way it is installed, it should still work with or without the use of the 600's door on it.

just because something will last a long time doesn't mean it is saving you any money in the long run. With natural gas furnace efficiencies in the 95+ percentile (not sure if your version is natural gas or oil) it would more than pay for itself in the short term to replace the system with a high end heating and cooling unit. I know this is not in everyone's budget, however, it is something I think someone with this type of furnace should consider.


one other consideration here is that the water panel on the old unit was much bigger than this one and could add more humidity.
 
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Old 01-26-11, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by hvactechfw View Post
well, Room permitting as I guess i didn't realize the height of the unit, I would have brought a duct off the supply and mounted it on the return cabinet the way the 600 was designed to be mounted. Right now there is potentially a failure of the HUM housing like what happened to the previous one. It is in direct sight...a few inches away from the extremely hot heat exchanger...
I know on my grandparents, there's no head room off the main duct, pretty much takes right off to the main duct for the house.

They are close to the heat exchanger, guess I haven't seen any issue with my grandparents.

the way it is installed, it should still work with or without the use of the 600's door on it.
I was thinking the same thing too.
 
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Old 01-26-11, 04:58 PM
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Thanks for posting pics for me, good photographer no. I have two more that I'll send, the photo of the Williamson owners manual shows where/how the #224 was installed. i "thought" the #600 installed like this would work same, but not the case. Behind the unit what you can't see is an opening into the supply chamber of the furnace via a simple flapper damper and the idea is the supply side will draw the humid air thru, it should work, no? I'm going to leave the cover off to see if that helps and then i may try to swiss cheese the cover with about six 1" holes.

Yes, it needs a new water panel. The furnace was installed in 1977 and it's still running great, although a lot of $$ goes up the chimney it's still cheaper than buying a new one. My NiGas bill is about $150 this month and Dec the same, 2200sq ft two story.

The lady at Aprilaire said there's no way the #600 will work the way I have it installed.

Thanks, Douglas
 
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Old 01-26-11, 05:16 PM
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I just sent 2 more pics to hvac to post foe me. Like Jay says, the Williamson stands too tall to mount the #600 on the outside, there's no space antwhere to put it like it shows in the directions. i'm going to get a new water panel tomorrow and leacve the cover off and see how it goes. I thought about swiss cheesing the cover with about 6 1" holes on the front side. Thanks, Douglas
 
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Old 01-26-11, 05:21 PM
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it is a bypass flow thru humidifier. This means it cycles hot air across the water panel to evaporate the water and it is then pulled into the return and recycled. Some of the humidified air goes into the living space, some recycles through the humidifier.
 
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Old 01-26-11, 05:39 PM
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Old 01-26-11, 06:20 PM
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I take it the Air Cleaner no longer works? You could slide in a 4" filter, and only change that once or twice a year. (I don't recall what size fits in there?)
 
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Old 01-27-11, 06:50 AM
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yeah, I gave up on the electronic air cleaner, it was a pain to clean, it would still work though. if it wasn't so big it would fit in the dishwasher and i'd still be using it. For whatever reason, Williamson did not provide common type filters, and depended on the elec air cleaner. so the size filter is oddball and i have to get them custom made, have to9 order a case of 12 and my choice is 1" or 2", I get the 1" and also use the blue sheet stuff you see in the pic. is your grandpa's still working? Thanks, Douglas
 
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Old 01-27-11, 10:03 AM
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well, I got the new water panel in this AM. The one I had been using was from menards and was kind of a soft spongy thing and mty new one from lowes is a more solid metal like thing, prolly better. I think the Aprilaire lady is full of it, to me, the 600 should work the same as the 224, we'll see. I left the cover off. Thanks, Douglas
 
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Old 01-27-11, 12:16 PM
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Yes, Grandpa's is still working.. I hope to make a trip over some time soon and check it over for him. Otherwise, he has taken cared of it pretty well!

Figured the filter would be an odd size..

The soft type pad is okay, they don't last as long, but let us know what your results are.
 
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Old 01-28-11, 10:51 PM
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hey guys, now I got another problem, water is over flowing and out into the furnace floor and then out on the basement floor, the water ain't hurting anything, runs to a floor drain. So what I did was dial down the humidistat just 'til it clicked off. Too much water, I think the drain pan on the humidifier is too small, but i also saw some drops flying out of the water panel. i don't know what to do, if I had a sheet metal shop, I'd fabricate a bigger pan. maybe i need the cover back on? Maybe I need a smaller orifice, I have a yellow one on now? If I put the cover back on, i'm going to have to swiss cheese it, Jay, if you get the chance, can you measure the opening on the 224 at gramps? If I had the diameter, I can figure out the area needed in sq inches. Is there a smaller orifice than the yellow?

I'm getting humidity though, it was 28% now it's 33%.

Thanks, Douglas
 
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Old 01-29-11, 05:45 AM
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Maybe with the cover off, we are getting too much air flow over the pad, and the air is pushing the water out. I wouldn't go any smaller on the orifice, then you won't get the humidity needed.

It may not be till next week before I can over to see them.
 
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Old 01-29-11, 06:07 AM
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yes, I think that's part of the problem, I could see and feel water droplets spurting out the pad, but the real issue is the drip pan too small to handle the volume. I rumn my blower fan constant and I had the humidistat cranked open constant. the humidity in the house has dropped down to 30% this AM from 33% at about midnite and all the water has dryed up on the floor. There is definately some design differences between the #224 and the #600, I need to get it sorted out. With the water flow constant, the inside humidity had only gotten up to 33% when I shut it down, so i'm thinking I need to run water constant, like I said before, when I had the #224, I could drip water off the walls if I didn't keep an eye on it and adjust the humidistat accordingly. I'd like to get the humidity inside up to about 35% at least. I run hot water, so that's a help to vaporize the water. I have work to do. Thanks, Douglas
 
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Old 01-29-11, 06:16 AM
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Are we talking about the tray on the lower part of the pad, and goes into the drain tube to drain away from the unit?
 
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Old 01-29-11, 06:49 AM
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yes Jay, the tray is too little to accomodate the amount of water flowing thru the pad and it overflows.

I had it somewhere and now I can't find, there are four orifices, red, yellow, blue and white. I know the red is bigger than the yellow, but whether or not the next size down from the yellow is blue or white? Or is yellow the smallest?

Thanks, Douglas
 
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Old 01-29-11, 07:28 AM
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Doug,

ensure the water panel is in the correct way. the painted end is always UP. If the water panel is in upside down the water can be pulled off the pad.
 
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Old 01-29-11, 07:45 AM
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Roger that, mark is on top. Thanks, Douglas
 
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Old 01-29-11, 08:12 AM
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I suppose at this point you have nothing to lose. Make a 6 inch round opening in the cover. close the damper on the side of the unit , maybe even tape it shut and try that.......... It is possible that because the new hum opening is smaller that there is greater velocity through the opening than there was with the previous hum.
 
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Old 01-29-11, 10:48 AM
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I think I'd be afraid of breaking the cover trying to cut a 6" hole. I might be better off swiss cheeseing it, a series of 1" holes.

If the blue or white orifice is smaller than the yellow one, that may work better. I need to have constant water.

Thanks, Douglas
 
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Old 02-17-11, 03:40 PM
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Ok, went to my grandparents today, and the hole opening is 6".


 

Last edited by Jay11J; 02-17-11 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 02-17-11, 04:06 PM
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Hvactechfw.

The air flow for the bypass comes this two opening next to the A-coil.



Then down this "chute".


So the air is not being pulled next to the heat exchanger.
 
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Old 02-17-11, 05:09 PM
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nice! That thing is ancient!
 
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Old 02-17-11, 06:30 PM
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Here's a Video of it.

and a slide show.
 
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Old 02-19-11, 12:59 PM
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Friend Jay, this is fantastic, great, you should get an Oscar for best post on a forum, I'm flabbergasted, don't know how to thank you! Man, grampa's furnace is in great shape, he sure keeps it nice, should last him a long time. His is a little smaller than mine, but same only the scale is smaller.

Jay, could I ask you a huge favor, please e-mail me your photos and video and slideshow I'm working on something with Aprilaire engineers to get this sorted out. Problem is none of them has been around long enough to have worked on the Williamson project and your video will be invalueble.

Thanks, Douglas
 

Last edited by Jay11J; 02-24-11 at 06:08 AM. Reason: removed e-mail.
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Old 02-23-11, 06:53 PM
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Douglas,

My file is WAY too big to send to you. :-( Maybe you can link them to the YouTube Video. Otherwise, you can send you each clips.. (I think I have 4 of them on my iPhone)
 
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Old 02-24-11, 06:01 AM
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Jay.........can you e-mail me the youtube link? that way I can just forward to them. I googled but could not find it. Thanks Douglas
 

Last edited by Jay11J; 02-24-11 at 06:08 AM. Reason: removed e-mail address
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Old 02-24-11, 06:09 AM
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Sent the link to you. What was really wrong with the old humidifier?
 
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Old 02-24-11, 06:36 AM
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thanks, Jay. .........the upper half the little diverter stubs had deteriated and were breaking down, the plastic got too brittle and the stub-ups broke off. thanks, douglas
 
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Old 02-26-11, 07:32 AM
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Friends, well, I guess this 600 is not going to work properly the way I have it installed. i don't know what it is between the 224 and the 600, the water panels are the same size except the 224 panel sits longways and the 600 panel sits upright. I think the problem is the static pressure the way the bypass air flows across the panel is too great a pressure causing the water to blow out and overflow, I don't know?

I'm thinking the best install for the 600 is for the bypass air to flow from the supply side thru the 6" opening where the damper is and the across the water panel and the backside of the panel open to the return side. The way I have it is just the opposite, I have the bypass air flow across the backside of the panel.

I don't have enough headroom on my ductwork to install the 600 on the outside of the furnace like you're supposed to. I wonder if a model 700, self powered, would be able to be installed and work properly, in the exact same place as I currently have the 600? I would keep the bypass damper closed and there is about a one inch space behind the water panel that the humid air would flow out into the return chamber. What do you think?

Thanks, Douglas
 
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Old 02-26-11, 09:29 AM
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No, the 700 will not work since there's a fan inside, and you are not going to have a full air exchange with the Williamson design.
 
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Old 02-26-11, 09:31 AM
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hate to say it, but it may be time for a console humidifier.......
 
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Old 02-26-11, 02:00 PM
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well, wouldn't the fan in the 700 push the humid air across and thru the front side of the water panel and discharge the humid air out the backside and then spill out into the return chamber and be picked up by the squirrel cage and enter into the supply side? Like I said, there's about a one inch space behind the water panel for air flow; what I didn't say before is there is also room along the sides of the water panel for this humid air to spill out. If you look at my pics, you'll see a piece of sheet metal on the left side of the 600 that i used to fill in the space left by the water panel being upright in the opening. I would mount the 700 centered up thus allowing space on either side for humid air flow. i'd close off the damper that controls the air flow from behind the a-coil into the return chamber. The only other thing I'd have to do is get 110v off something inside, like maybe the electronic air cleaner control panel, or just poke a hole in to run the 110v. What do yiou think?

Thanks, Douglas

These williamson furnaces are built like a Sherman tank and will prolly last forever if I take care of it. I'm on my third blower motor, third thermo couple and third fan control. it's been installed since 1977.
 

Last edited by douglasrome; 02-26-11 at 02:14 PM. Reason: additional comment
 

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