Drain flies!!!!!
#1
Drain flies!!!!!
Hi everyone first time poster and I was hoping it wouldn't come to this but it has.
About a year ago I redid my basement tenants apartment bathroom. I used to do plumbing for a living so I am very confident in my plumbing work but who knows.
Main concern is I have a huge issue with an odor and drain flies. I do not think there are any leaks in the wall where i re ran the plumbing and it was water tested for about 3 days before the sheet rock went up. I do not think i have a Leak in the drains either But i cant be sure. I do not think the new fiberglass shower base is leaking either nor the FRP surround I made.
Issue is i have either a dead animal or broken drain smell and these little flies have appeared everywhere and cant be controlled.
I opened a hole behind a closet where the main stack is and found nothing though the odor is strongest in this cubby which sits between the bathroom and bedroom (its all old cast iron). I lifted the toilet and found nothing, no leaks and NOT ONE fly came out of the drian the entire time but they were in the room. I removed the sink drain and found nothing (both the sink and shower have new drains to so there is no sludge and are used every day.)
I dont see any sheet rock signs of water damage from the exterior.
My starting theory was about 3 or 4 months ago we had an unwanted visitor from the outside who i thought might be a squirrel in the ceiling (mostly drop ceiling) and left some poison bait out. They were eaten and then the second set of baits and traps were set and they have been there undisturbed to the day.
Could whatever was scurrying in the ceiling have eaten the bait and died under the floor in either the bathroom or bedroom creating a feeding/breeding site for these guys. Do these guys ever use carcasses for their lifecycles or specifically stick to drains and leaks? What are some other options here. I just bought a small 3 foot camera snake i have bee using but havent found anything yet. The drainage system itself seems fine since i have no backups or stoppages.
Im really stuck in a rut with this thing. Im about to start ripping up floors. She is a great understanding tenant and I CANT leave her this way much longer.
Thanks
About a year ago I redid my basement tenants apartment bathroom. I used to do plumbing for a living so I am very confident in my plumbing work but who knows.
Main concern is I have a huge issue with an odor and drain flies. I do not think there are any leaks in the wall where i re ran the plumbing and it was water tested for about 3 days before the sheet rock went up. I do not think i have a Leak in the drains either But i cant be sure. I do not think the new fiberglass shower base is leaking either nor the FRP surround I made.
Issue is i have either a dead animal or broken drain smell and these little flies have appeared everywhere and cant be controlled.
I opened a hole behind a closet where the main stack is and found nothing though the odor is strongest in this cubby which sits between the bathroom and bedroom (its all old cast iron). I lifted the toilet and found nothing, no leaks and NOT ONE fly came out of the drian the entire time but they were in the room. I removed the sink drain and found nothing (both the sink and shower have new drains to so there is no sludge and are used every day.)
I dont see any sheet rock signs of water damage from the exterior.
My starting theory was about 3 or 4 months ago we had an unwanted visitor from the outside who i thought might be a squirrel in the ceiling (mostly drop ceiling) and left some poison bait out. They were eaten and then the second set of baits and traps were set and they have been there undisturbed to the day.
Could whatever was scurrying in the ceiling have eaten the bait and died under the floor in either the bathroom or bedroom creating a feeding/breeding site for these guys. Do these guys ever use carcasses for their lifecycles or specifically stick to drains and leaks? What are some other options here. I just bought a small 3 foot camera snake i have bee using but havent found anything yet. The drainage system itself seems fine since i have no backups or stoppages.
Im really stuck in a rut with this thing. Im about to start ripping up floors. She is a great understanding tenant and I CANT leave her this way much longer.
Thanks
#2
Forum Topic Moderator
I've got some ideas. I'm very tired right now so when rested I may come up with more stuff for you.
The flies that typically infest/breed in animal bodies are larger, house fly size, but have a metallic color. You would easily notice this.
To solve a fly problem the first step is proper identification of the fly. That will tell us where they like to breed, eat, harborage, etc. It will give us a positive direction to go.
When you say "drain flies", I wonder if that is what we call "sewer flies" (psychoda). These are very tiny, and under a magnifier they look fuzzy, like tiny moths. Not strong fliers, kind of slow, rest on walls a lot.
If it is what we call sewer flies (psychoda) then they breed in slow moving drains, stagnant water, wet organic mass, scum, etc.
consider:
old floor drains that were covered during remodeling.
sump pumps, especially little used ones.
dehumidifier/condensate drain lines that go under slab.
Humidifiers that are very dirty.
Slow moving drains. Drain cleaners often don't help with these flies, except for the sulfuric acid based. Sounds like yours are good drains though.
Check the wall where the sewage pipe exists the house. Are there more flies there? Is the wall damp (pipe break). Could main stack be cracked somewhere that you can't see?
Laundry machine-check for scum in places you can't normally see.
Evaporation pans under fridges. Look around freezers/fridges for packs of meat that were left outside of unit and is rotting (it happens). Check for bags of potatoes that were forgotten about.
Catch specimens, live or dead, but not squashed. Search: sewer flies (psychoda);
fruit flies (drosophila); Phorid flies; Fungus gnats; County extension/agricultural agents can be a big help here.
The last one, fungus gnats is an afterthought. Not associated with drains so much, but do come from overwatered house plants, especially the pots with spanish moss on top of the soil.
Try isolating rooms, plants, and see if you can more reliably determine what rooms are involved. Solving fly problems rarely involves insecticides, but good old-fashioned detective work and then elbow grease.
Forward more info as you get it.
The flies that typically infest/breed in animal bodies are larger, house fly size, but have a metallic color. You would easily notice this.
To solve a fly problem the first step is proper identification of the fly. That will tell us where they like to breed, eat, harborage, etc. It will give us a positive direction to go.
When you say "drain flies", I wonder if that is what we call "sewer flies" (psychoda). These are very tiny, and under a magnifier they look fuzzy, like tiny moths. Not strong fliers, kind of slow, rest on walls a lot.
If it is what we call sewer flies (psychoda) then they breed in slow moving drains, stagnant water, wet organic mass, scum, etc.
consider:
old floor drains that were covered during remodeling.
sump pumps, especially little used ones.
dehumidifier/condensate drain lines that go under slab.
Humidifiers that are very dirty.
Slow moving drains. Drain cleaners often don't help with these flies, except for the sulfuric acid based. Sounds like yours are good drains though.
Check the wall where the sewage pipe exists the house. Are there more flies there? Is the wall damp (pipe break). Could main stack be cracked somewhere that you can't see?
Laundry machine-check for scum in places you can't normally see.
Evaporation pans under fridges. Look around freezers/fridges for packs of meat that were left outside of unit and is rotting (it happens). Check for bags of potatoes that were forgotten about.
Catch specimens, live or dead, but not squashed. Search: sewer flies (psychoda);
fruit flies (drosophila); Phorid flies; Fungus gnats; County extension/agricultural agents can be a big help here.
The last one, fungus gnats is an afterthought. Not associated with drains so much, but do come from overwatered house plants, especially the pots with spanish moss on top of the soil.
Try isolating rooms, plants, and see if you can more reliably determine what rooms are involved. Solving fly problems rarely involves insecticides, but good old-fashioned detective work and then elbow grease.
Forward more info as you get it.
#3
Well heres what i have so far.
Bought a camera snake (small one from harbor freight), and sent it down the lifted toilet int he apartment. Well a few things.
One) NOT ONE fly came out of the drain while the toilet was up for about an hour though flies were regularly coming into the bathroom.
two) Did not smell the odor coming out of the drain at all. You would think you would but i didnt even get a gust of sewer smell from the drain, no cracks and everything looks good.
This strengthens my thoughts on a dead animal under a floor. I am going to drill some holes and pop the snake in them tonight but i honestly dont think i have a pipe break. Situation here as well is where i did the re model everything was tested vigorously before the floor went down. No feed pipes are under neath and the only drains in that area are a shower and sink where its just dirt under that.
The odor has found its way up to the second floor bypassing the first and thrid (this is a four family), so its hitting every other floor.
I did find an outside foundation vent or drain in the wall which possibly might actually lead under the back bedroom in the apartment. My thought is a critter (squirrel or something larger than a mouse) may have crawled in and when the snow hit hard it blocked its way out and it starved to death or ate the bait and died.
I know these are drain flies as they definatley look like my research into them.
I will keep you updated thanks.
I would think if there was a drain break in the wall or an upper floor some visible damage would be noticable now.
Bought a camera snake (small one from harbor freight), and sent it down the lifted toilet int he apartment. Well a few things.
One) NOT ONE fly came out of the drain while the toilet was up for about an hour though flies were regularly coming into the bathroom.
two) Did not smell the odor coming out of the drain at all. You would think you would but i didnt even get a gust of sewer smell from the drain, no cracks and everything looks good.
This strengthens my thoughts on a dead animal under a floor. I am going to drill some holes and pop the snake in them tonight but i honestly dont think i have a pipe break. Situation here as well is where i did the re model everything was tested vigorously before the floor went down. No feed pipes are under neath and the only drains in that area are a shower and sink where its just dirt under that.
The odor has found its way up to the second floor bypassing the first and thrid (this is a four family), so its hitting every other floor.
I did find an outside foundation vent or drain in the wall which possibly might actually lead under the back bedroom in the apartment. My thought is a critter (squirrel or something larger than a mouse) may have crawled in and when the snow hit hard it blocked its way out and it starved to death or ate the bait and died.
I know these are drain flies as they definatley look like my research into them.
I will keep you updated thanks.
I would think if there was a drain break in the wall or an upper floor some visible damage would be noticable now.
#4
Forum Topic Moderator
If these are in fact drain flies or sewer flies (psychoda) then they are not coming from a dead animal. They don't do that. They are coming from stagnant water, scum, slow moving drains, pipe breaks, etc..
I've found them in gymnasium showers which had normal flowing drains. There was a lip/rim inside the drain that caught hair and soap scum, but still flowed normally.
Is there a place where the main sewage stack is less than vertical? I've seen iron pipe crack on the top of the run but not leak, as the pipe never fills. Odor and flies were getting out though.
You will figure it out, I feel sure. Make real sure that you have a positive ID on them, as that is the key to solving small fly problems.
The fact that the odor is getting in some but not all apartments could me more a function of negative pressure in some apts. due to exhaust fans, windows, vents etc. that doesn't exist in others, at least at that moment.
I've found them in gymnasium showers which had normal flowing drains. There was a lip/rim inside the drain that caught hair and soap scum, but still flowed normally.
Is there a place where the main sewage stack is less than vertical? I've seen iron pipe crack on the top of the run but not leak, as the pipe never fills. Odor and flies were getting out though.
You will figure it out, I feel sure. Make real sure that you have a positive ID on them, as that is the key to solving small fly problems.
The fact that the odor is getting in some but not all apartments could me more a function of negative pressure in some apts. due to exhaust fans, windows, vents etc. that doesn't exist in others, at least at that moment.
#5
Okay found it.
My first floor has ball valves behind the claw foot tub (the bathroom is not oriented to fit a standard 30" tub nicely.
Apparently the HOT side ball valve had a drip. Situation here is I checked this area through an access tile in the basement apartment several times and found nothing. This leads me to think that it was originally a stop/go, slow leak which in the past day decided to give out to a steady trickle.
I found the wood very damp, opened the wall where the plaster was wet, opened the cieling, sprayed everything with bleach and set a fan to provide circulation for cool steady drying to prevent more stagnation and ripped out whatever soaked raunchy wood i could.
Good news is when i opened the wall i could see almost all the new stuff i did in the bathroom and its holding great.
Once this all drys I am going to patch dissinfect again and then have to open the floor in the little hallway and replace about a 3x3' square of flooring that absorbed quite a bit of water. I would have did it all at once but i want to see if the other stuff dries out. I replaced the bad ball valve to stop the leak but there are other repairs i will do as well. I could not find the "nest" but DID see quite a few of these coming in and out of the area (they may be nesting under the floor i am going to replace). Im hoping when its all dry they will just die off or leave, but the number have dwindled since I bombed. I placed some sticky traps up and did the vinegar bottle trick to keep catching any that flutter around.
I feel really bad for my tenant as shes really great and i know this is stressing her but alas Sec8 does pay her full rent so you have to take the good with the bad.
thanks for your help man, I will keep you updated and if you have any more tips shoot em over.
at least it wasnt a drain leak, when i put my head up there and opend the lower wall you could def smell the odor very strong like a wet mildew smell, and I am sure the fact that it was the hot valve and not the cold it just made the problem worse.
Im also hoping they are not under teh tile in the first floor, only time will tell.
My first floor has ball valves behind the claw foot tub (the bathroom is not oriented to fit a standard 30" tub nicely.
Apparently the HOT side ball valve had a drip. Situation here is I checked this area through an access tile in the basement apartment several times and found nothing. This leads me to think that it was originally a stop/go, slow leak which in the past day decided to give out to a steady trickle.
I found the wood very damp, opened the wall where the plaster was wet, opened the cieling, sprayed everything with bleach and set a fan to provide circulation for cool steady drying to prevent more stagnation and ripped out whatever soaked raunchy wood i could.
Good news is when i opened the wall i could see almost all the new stuff i did in the bathroom and its holding great.
Once this all drys I am going to patch dissinfect again and then have to open the floor in the little hallway and replace about a 3x3' square of flooring that absorbed quite a bit of water. I would have did it all at once but i want to see if the other stuff dries out. I replaced the bad ball valve to stop the leak but there are other repairs i will do as well. I could not find the "nest" but DID see quite a few of these coming in and out of the area (they may be nesting under the floor i am going to replace). Im hoping when its all dry they will just die off or leave, but the number have dwindled since I bombed. I placed some sticky traps up and did the vinegar bottle trick to keep catching any that flutter around.
I feel really bad for my tenant as shes really great and i know this is stressing her but alas Sec8 does pay her full rent so you have to take the good with the bad.
thanks for your help man, I will keep you updated and if you have any more tips shoot em over.
at least it wasnt a drain leak, when i put my head up there and opend the lower wall you could def smell the odor very strong like a wet mildew smell, and I am sure the fact that it was the hot valve and not the cold it just made the problem worse.
Im also hoping they are not under teh tile in the first floor, only time will tell.
#6
Forum Topic Moderator
Goo job Tevil, I felt like you were getting close. Drying everything out will solve the fly problem. The quicker it dries, the quicker the solution.
Using the flies to find a leak is "forensic plumbing"! Stay in touch, I'll be here.
Using the flies to find a leak is "forensic plumbing"! Stay in touch, I'll be here.
#7
problem was the flies were everywhere and where they were most was actually the other side of the bathroom.
This really was a trial and error, "had to be there at the right time" diagnosis. Very frustrating.
This really was a trial and error, "had to be there at the right time" diagnosis. Very frustrating.