Proposed Basement Setup (insulation)

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Old 05-17-05, 10:23 AM
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Proposed Basement Setup (insulation)

Greetings..my first post.
Normally in a guitar effects/recording forum so this is all very new to me.
I've learned a lot reading prior posts, but there are so many variables in this stuff, I thought I would list my proposed basement set-up and look for your critique/suggestions....

Lower Hudson Valley, NY State.. fairly cold winters, humid summers.
Basement is cinderblock...so

1 CINDERBLOCK
2 DRYLOK (LATEX)
3 ATLAS ENERGY SHIELD (POLYISO SHEATHING)
4 OWENS-CORNING 3.5 inch Fiberglass BATT
5 DRYWALL / MELAMINE PANELS

the floor is going to be made up of Insulated Sub-Floor Panels with an R value of 3.2

Any help greatly appreciated...will definitely post my results post project.
 
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Old 05-20-05, 07:43 PM
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http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumeri...heets/bd4.html

The topics you want to read are" Thermal-Moisture Dynamics" and "Perm Ratings".

I personally do not agree with what you intend to do. However, some towns and areas require plastic sheeting over masonry walls. Both the Drylock and Polyiso Sheathing have low Perm Ratings. This clearly violates the 5 to 1 rule. When used together in your application, their Perm Rating is probably lower than the vapor barrier.
 
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Old 05-23-05, 10:09 AM
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Thank you for the reply..
After reading it..then reading from the link, then reading your reply again..I think I've got it.

I want the outer VDR, (in my case the DRYLOK), to have a HIGHER Perm rating (5:1), than the inner one, (the Polyioso/Foil sheathing)..

( "To prevent trapping any moisture in a cavity the cold-side material's Perm rating should be at least five times greater than the value of the warm-side".. )

I did ask the good people at Atlas Roofing if the sheathing was considered a VDR and the answer was "NO".. so I thought I was ok?

Atlas lists the product as having Moisture Vapor Transmission ASTM E 96 < One (1) Perm(57.5ng/(Pasm2)) ..

any danger you could translate that to English??
 
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Old 05-23-05, 10:12 AM
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Just off the phone with DRYLOK people... "Has an perm rating of 4"

so Im going Outer 4 perm, Inner 1 perm....close enough? I mean, it's not 5:1, but 4:1 is not too bad? (<1 perm to be exact)

Also.. would anyone suggest taping the seams between rigid board insulation panels?? and if so..what kind of tape?


and here I thought i was just "doing my basement"..love learning stuff along the way.
This forum rocks.
 

Last edited by monoverb; 05-23-05 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 05-24-05, 05:44 AM
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ASTM stands for the AMERICAN SOCIETY of TESTING and MEASUREMENT.

E 96 is the designation of the method used to measure and test. This way if the test is done in China or the U.S. or anywhere else, the outcome of the tests would be exactly the same for that particular material.

All foils qualify as VDR's, unless they are perforated.

Since all materials have a Perm Rating, then all materials absorb and expel moisture. Furthermore, moisture is generated outside and inside the structure. This is why nearly all the applications within the structure are "WATER SHEDDING" systems. This explicitly implies that these applications are designed to move moisture away from structural components. It does NOT mean to KEEP MOISTURE OUT of these structural components. In other words, a structural component that is too dry or too wet DESTABILIZES the structural component and failure becomes highly likely.

So to put this in perspective with your application, when it comes to INDOOR AIR QUALITY (IAQ) the DryLock prohibits moisture from the outside ground to enter the basement. But it works in both directions. In other words, it prohibits moisture generated inside the basement from leaving the basement. The VDR does the same thing. This is why there are many in this industry that dispute the benefits of VDR's. However, their arguments fall short when we consider "Thermal-Moisture Dynamics".

I do realize this is a very confusing subject. The operative phrase here is WATER SHEDDING. These products, DryLock and Energy Shield, prohibit moisture transmission and at the same time can create a dam like situation on the side of the product where the moisture is being generated. This can affect the structural components inside the wall cavity but also the quality of the air inside the basement.

While these products are considered by some to be necessary when finishing a basement, they clearly impede the WATER SHEDDING properties of the structure. If we are to use products like these that impede moisture flow in both directions, then we must also address the other half of the equation, MOISTURE GENERATION. Believe it or not, the vast majority of IAQ problems today are from moisture generated inside the structure.
 
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Old 05-24-05, 08:26 AM
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to me, it sounds like an argument that has no resolve? I mean..either you are in one school or the other. Ideally i would just like a dry, warm, comfortable basement/media room.

Maybe the DRYLOK is overkill since water seepage is not reallty an issue?
At this point I would love to hear how you might suggest handling everything from the Drywall to the Cinderblock..my options are very open, and I really want to do it right.
 
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Old 05-24-05, 01:19 PM
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Rule number one. Architects primary purpose is to bring the variety of components together that make up a structure to make it livable and sustainable. If you look closely at the processes they use, the vast majority of them mimic nature. And one of the best ways to describe nature is balance. Equilibrium is by far the most used process. Indoor Air Quality (IAQ) problems arise when there is an imbalance in either moisture absorption or expulsion within the structure.

Rule number two. Equilibrium Relative Humidity (ErH%) states that an object of lower humidity will absorb humidity from an object of higher humidity until the objects are equal in humidity. What this means is that the lower humidity object will increase in humidity and the higher humidity objects will decrease, until they are equal in humidity. This is important concerning your application.

Rule number three. TIME is the determining factor when it comes to moisture absorption (Perm Rating). The lower the Perm Rating of a material the slower the absorption, the higher the Perm Rating, the faster the absorption.

Let's assume your unfinished basement is fairly dry. I can deduce from that, that you have good drainage around the perimeter of the basement and a low water table. This results in your masonry walls having a low humidity level. And according to ErH%, the masonry walls will absorb the moisture generated inside the basement.

Now let's assume you DryLock the basement walls. In all likelihood, the basement becomes damp and musky. The reason is that the DryLock increased the time it takes for the masonry to absorb the moisture generated inside the basement.

On the other hand let's say you have a drainage pproblem around the perimeter of the basement and/or a high water table. ErH% still applies and the prudent thing to do is DryLock the basement walls.

So if this was my house and if I did not have a drainage or water table problem, I would not DryLock the walls. Stud out the wall at least an inch, insulate between the studs. Install a vapor barrier and sheet rock.

If I had a drainage and/or water table problem that could not be addressed, I would finish the basement the same way except I would DryLock the basement walls.
 
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Old 05-24-05, 01:34 PM
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You're the man resercon...thanks for the help.
I cant wait to dig in..


will let you all know how it goes.
 
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Old 01-12-06, 06:54 AM
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I think I may be too late, but maybe this will help other people.

In climates with cold winters & poured foundations, you don't want a vapor barrier installed directly against the interior face of the concrete, especially a painted-on VDR. The dominant moisture drive (EVEN IN THE WINTER) is inward, from the ground. So putting a VDR against the concrete can trap moisture in the concrete, leading to freeze thaw damage. This is not so much a problem in CMU block, because there's a natural system for venting moisture. You might get lucky in your part of NY, but there are many places in New York state that are 7200 + HDD, making vapor proofing the inside surface a bit dangerous.

So, the best option is to put your water proofing layer on the OUTSIDE of the wall, against the soil, to keep moisture out of the concrete. Then put a well-sealed vapor permeable insulating layer on the inside of the concrete to keep interior humidity from condensing on the face of the concrete, and to allow moisture that enters the concrete to dry to the indoors.
 
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