Ceiling fan (not light attached) w/no existing light fixture, swith on outlet

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Old 07-29-09, 06:40 PM
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Post Ceiling fan (not light attached) w/no existing light fixture, swith on outlet

I am installing a ceiling fan (no light attached) in master bedroom, where there is not existing light fixture. The current wall switch is connected to one outlet in the room (control lamps). I looked at the wiring in the switch and in the outlet.

Switch: two wires coming in (black/white+bare) and (black/red/white+bare)

Outlet: two wires coming in (black/white+bare) and(black/red/white+bare)

Switch connection: both blacks are connected to screw, red connected to other screw, whites are connected together, greens are connected together.

Outlet connection: same as switch connection.

I would like to add a double switch, one to operate the ceiling fan and the other to remain on the outlet to operate the lamps.

Please help with the wiring.
 

Last edited by isj817; 07-29-09 at 09:04 PM. Reason: misleading content
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Old 07-29-09, 07:19 PM
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You are one of the lucky ones. you have a source of power already in the switch box. you will just need to run a new cable either 14-2 or 12-2 to the new fan box location. I would run xx-3 to add the option for a light kit at a later date.

Record all the connections as they exist before you unwire anything to change the switch box. Once you get the new 2 gang box installed you will splice all the grounds together along with a pigtail for each switch. All whites together and cap. The black from the new cable will be on one side of the new switch. A pigtail from the incoming power will go to the other switch screw.
 
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Old 07-29-09, 07:22 PM
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You have a green in the box which tells me that your home may have been rewired at some time. I will tell you how to wire it using NM-B (Romex) which will have a bare copper ground. The grounds will all be connected together.

Turn off power.
Beat out old box using hammer, screwdriver, harsh language, whatever it takes.

At the switch location you will have to install a remodel box. If your existing wiring is in metal. purchase two boxes like this: Product Results - CDOW-25 and gang them together. If you do not have steel then you can use a double gang plastic remodel box. Make the hole in the wall so the box will fit. Be careful not to make it too big.

Run a 14/2 or 12/2, which ever size wire you have from the switch location to the fan location. You may want to run a 14/3 or 12/3 if at some time you may want a light on the fan.
Be sure to install a remodel fan rated box.

Now the wiring. The existing wiring will get reconnected exactly the way it was. The new cable you ran will get connect like this:
Black to new switch brass screw. White to group of whites. Ground to greens. Then just run a black pigtail (short piece of wire) from the wirenuted blacks to the other brass screw of the switch. If you ran a 14/3 just cap off the red for now.

The fan will get connected black to black. White to white. Green to bare.

I have left out some stuff because I could go on and on but that is pretty much the just of it. If you have any questions please ask.

Good luck!
 
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Old 07-29-09, 08:29 PM
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I apologize...I miss lead you all.
The green wire I spoke of is not green but rather bare (ground). Again, there are two seperate wires (black/white+bare) and (black/red/white+bare).
Whites are bundled together and bare wires are bundled together. Bother blacks are on one screw and the red is on the other.
 

Last edited by isj817; 07-29-09 at 08:34 PM. Reason: Added more content
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Old 07-30-09, 08:05 AM
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Tolyn Ironhand,

You mentioned:

"At the switch location you will have to install a remodel box. If your existing wiring is in metal. purchase two separate metal boxes." Can I purchase a 2 gang metal box?

"Run a 14/2 or 12/2, which ever size wire you have from the switch location to the fan location. You may want to run a 14/3 or 12/3 if at some time you may want a light on the fan." If the breaker amp for the existing wire is 15 I would use a 12/2 or 12/3...correct?

"The new cable you ran will get connect like this:
Black to new switch brass screw. White to group of whites. Ground to greens. Then just run a black pigtail (short piece of wire) from the wirenuted blacks to the other brass screw of the switch. If you ran a 14/3 just cap off the red for now."
Run the pigtail wire to which switch, the new one or old one? What about the red wire that's already connected?
"I have left out some stuff because I could go on and on but that is pretty much the just of it. If you have any questions please ask." Please provide all details. What information did you leave out?


Everyone, thanks for your assistance
 
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Old 07-30-09, 03:00 PM
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Metal boxes are gangable to create the size you need. You just remove the sideplates.

If the breaker is 15 amps you can use 14-2 or 14-3. You would only need 12 gauge if the breaker were 20 amp.

The pigtail is going to supply power to both switches. Connect 2 short pigtails to the 2 blacks that were under the one screw. These will go to one screw on each switch. the red will go to the other screw on one of the switches. The other black from the new cable will go to the other screw on the new switch.
 
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Old 07-30-09, 05:42 PM
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PcBoss,

Thanks...that's what I needed to hear.
I appreciate the assistance and guidance.
I will let you know how the project turned out.

Again thanks,

isj817
 
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Old 07-31-09, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by isj817 View Post
"I have left out some stuff because I could go on and on but that is pretty much the just of it. If you have any questions please ask." Please provide all details. What information did you leave out?


Everyone, thanks for your assistance
Thanks PC for taking over!

The only stuff I left out is how to cut the holes in the walls to get the boxes in.

Since it sounds like you have Romex cable I suggest using plastic remodel boxes.
 
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Old 07-31-09, 07:55 PM
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Tolyon Ironhand,

Thanks for your response.
I am using 14-3 wiring.
I also ran into a little problem in the master bedroom.
The single switch in placed between two studs on the wall.
Reason being there is a closet and the door way, the closet is next to the door-way. Therefore, the switch seats between them...there is know room to cut for a two-gang box.

Thanks in advance,
 
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Old 07-31-09, 08:06 PM
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If you can't get the 2 gang box in you can either use a stacking switch similar to this: http://www.passandseymour.com/decora...ges/switch.jpg or cut a single gang box above the existing box for the fan. You would just need to run a 14/2 from the existing box up to the new box. Tie into the hot and neutral.
 
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Old 07-31-09, 08:24 PM
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Tolyn Ironhand,

Again thanks for the quick response.
I will use a stacking switch (Master bedroom) similar to the one you suggested.
I actually have a stacking switch in one of the bathrooms to operate the light and fan vent.

Tolyn, is it okay to use a plastic ceiling box for the ceiling fans?
Yes, I am using Romex 14/3 wiring instead of 14/2 because my wife is not sure if she would want to add the lights onto the fan later down the road.
As previously stated, she want to keep the outlet connected to the switch to operate the lamps in the room. The ceiling fan has a light kit but she does not want to use the light...but also, not sure if she would change her mind 2,3,4,5 or even 10 years down the road.

Thanks in advance,
 

Last edited by isj817; 07-31-09 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 07-31-09, 08:33 PM
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There are plastic fan rated boxes in both new and old work configurations.

What style do you need? Side bracket or spreader bar mounted?
 
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Old 07-31-09, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by isj817 View Post
Tolyn, is it okay to use a plastic ceiling box for the ceiling fans?
I have never seen a plastic remodel box that is OK to support that weight of a fan. I have seen new construction ones but not remodel. What ever box you get, make sure it is rated to carry the weight of the fan

Originally Posted by isj817 View Post
Again, I am using 14-3 wiring because my wife is not sure if she would want to add the lights onto the fan later down the road.
As previously stated, she want to keep the outlet connected to the switch to operate the lamps in the room. The ceiling fan has a light kit but she does not want to use the light...but also, not sure if she would change her mind 2,3,4,5 or even 10 years down the road.

Thanks in advance,
Running the 14/3 is good insurance for later. Since you are using a single gang box, buy the biggest remodel one you can find. You can only have so many wires in a box. For more info google "wires per box"
 

Last edited by Tolyn Ironhand; 08-01-09 at 05:50 AM.
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Old 07-31-09, 08:47 PM
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PcBoss,

I am using both side bracket and spreader bar mounted. All of the plastic box says...4" Ceiling Box. They do not have "old" or "new" on them. However, I did see "old" and "new" while at the store. But known of them had spreader bar mounted. What is the difference?

One of the smaller bedrooms, the center is right above a stud, so I will use the side bracket.

The other three bedrooms the center is directly between two studs...so I will use the spreader bar mounted.

Thanks...
 
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Old 08-01-09, 02:08 AM
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Smart Box has a plastic old or new work fan rated box. You will probably need to go to an electrical supply house.


I believe Arlington also has a metal old work box of a similar design.
 
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Old 08-01-09, 06:25 AM
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Here is a fan box for when you are not next to a joist: Amazon.com: Pass & Seymour 22200 Retrofit Reiker Fan Brace with 25-Cubic-Inch Electrical Box: Home Improvement
Most big box stores and some hardware stores carry this or something similar.
 
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Old 08-01-09, 07:04 AM
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Tolyn and PcBoss,

I appreciate all your guidance and advice.

v/r

isj817Beer 4U2
 
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