Ceiling Fan w/Two Wall Switches and Too Many Wires (diagram included!)
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Ceiling Fan w/Two Wall Switches and Too Many Wires (diagram included!)
First things first: This house was build in the 1950s in Florida but the room where I am installing a new ceiling fan is an addition (I don't know when it was built). I did read this page but it didn't address my problem: Wiring a Ceiling Fan with Two Switches | DoItYourself.com
I've installed a ceiling fan before when there was no existing fan in place and it seemed quite simple. Perhaps some over confidence paired with a bad approach of not observing how the previous fan was hooked up got me here. Basically I disconnected all the wires I saw and took the fan out, untangled the mess and found three bundles of wires (please see image below)
I got my handy multimeter from college and tested all wire combination and wire/switch combinations. WB1, WB2, WB3 correspond to the image.
A couple other bits of information.
I know that often times the red wire is used with switches, but the number of bundles of wires is confusing me. Is WB2 a pass through to have some other things receive power? That is really a side note. The main thing I am trying to figure out is how to get this fan wired so it works with two switches.
Any insight is very appreciated!
I've installed a ceiling fan before when there was no existing fan in place and it seemed quite simple. Perhaps some over confidence paired with a bad approach of not observing how the previous fan was hooked up got me here. Basically I disconnected all the wires I saw and took the fan out, untangled the mess and found three bundles of wires (please see image below)
I got my handy multimeter from college and tested all wire combination and wire/switch combinations. WB1, WB2, WB3 correspond to the image.
- WB1: Switch1 & Switch2 have no effect
- Black & White = ~120V
- Black & Red = ~73V
- White & Red = ~27V
- WB2: Switch1 & Switch2 have no effect AND no wires have voltage
- WB3: Switch1 has no effect
- Black & White = ~120V only when Switch2 is flipped on
A couple other bits of information.
- The ceiling fan also has a light. Previously, Switch1 (which has a fader) controlled turning the light on/off and Switch2 controlled turning the fan on/off.The fan that was previously installed worked fine with the wall switches.
- The red wires from WB1 and WB2 were originally connected when the old fan was installed but I don't know if any additional wires were connected to them.
I know that often times the red wire is used with switches, but the number of bundles of wires is confusing me. Is WB2 a pass through to have some other things receive power? That is really a side note. The main thing I am trying to figure out is how to get this fan wired so it works with two switches.
Any insight is very appreciated!
Last edited by toddsherman; 05-21-12 at 04:41 PM. Reason: added a link
#2
Welcome to the forums!
That does sound like a lot of wires for one fan/light combo and a couple of switches. To start with, a bit of terminology: what you're calling "wire bundles" are cables. In the ceiling box you have three 3-wire cables, so called because each cable has three current-carrying conductors: the black, red and white wires. In this case, each cable also has a ground wire.
Having said that, your cable 1 has line feed power on the black wire; the other readings are induced. And cable 3 has line power on the black wire iff switch 2, a snap switch which controlled the fan motor when the earlier fixture was installed, is switched ON. Otherwise, no power can be detected in the ceiling box. If all of the ceiling wires are now separated - which is what you seem to be saying - then switch 2 must be fed from a different source.
Can you uncover and dismount the two switches, pull them out far enough to see which wires they're attached to and the cables and wires behind them, and describe that to us? Some pictures might help: see How To Include Pictures.
That does sound like a lot of wires for one fan/light combo and a couple of switches. To start with, a bit of terminology: what you're calling "wire bundles" are cables. In the ceiling box you have three 3-wire cables, so called because each cable has three current-carrying conductors: the black, red and white wires. In this case, each cable also has a ground wire.
Having said that, your cable 1 has line feed power on the black wire; the other readings are induced. And cable 3 has line power on the black wire iff switch 2, a snap switch which controlled the fan motor when the earlier fixture was installed, is switched ON. Otherwise, no power can be detected in the ceiling box. If all of the ceiling wires are now separated - which is what you seem to be saying - then switch 2 must be fed from a different source.
Can you uncover and dismount the two switches, pull them out far enough to see which wires they're attached to and the cables and wires behind them, and describe that to us? Some pictures might help: see How To Include Pictures.
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New information!
Thanks for the update! There are three cables (references as C1, C2 and C3) that feed the two switches. Updated diagram and picture below.
Description:
Honestly, I have not thought through the significance of these findings yet but I wanted to post it as soon as possible. I'm going to give it a ponder now. Thanks!
Description:
- All of the wires coming out of C1 are attached to screws on Switch1.
- The red wire coming out of C2 is not attached to anything, not even capped.
- The two white wires coming out of C2 and C3 are attached via a twist cap.
- Both bare copper wires coming out of C2 and C3 are attached to one screw on Switch2.
- Each black wire is attached to its own screw on Switch2.
Honestly, I have not thought through the significance of these findings yet but I wanted to post it as soon as possible. I'm going to give it a ponder now. Thanks!
#4
Thank you, especially for the updated diagram and the picture.
First, I may have mis-read your first diagram. I think that including the ground wires, in a color similar to a red wire, may have thrown me off. Regardless, I am now seeing two 3-wire cables and one 2-wire cable in the ceiling box. Is that correct?
Let's deal with the ground wires first, get them out of the way, and eliminate them from the diagram and discussion going forward. In both boxes, all of the ground wires need to be spliced (twisted) together with a pigtail for each device. In the switch box, this means that there will be five wires in the splice: one from each cable and one for each switch. In the ceiling box there will be four wires in the splice: one from each cable and one for the fan/light combo.
We also don't need to include the fan wires; we know what those are.
Now, if I'm hearing you correctly, with all of the wires in the ceiling separated, there is always power on the black wire in Cable 1 in the ceiling, and turning S2 on feeds power to the black wire in C3. C2 is unaffected by switching. Is that right?
One more question: Does one breaker control all of the power in this system? Does turning one breaker off eliminate the power on C1 in the ceiling and the power that S2 can supply to C3 in the ceiling?
First, I may have mis-read your first diagram. I think that including the ground wires, in a color similar to a red wire, may have thrown me off. Regardless, I am now seeing two 3-wire cables and one 2-wire cable in the ceiling box. Is that correct?
Let's deal with the ground wires first, get them out of the way, and eliminate them from the diagram and discussion going forward. In both boxes, all of the ground wires need to be spliced (twisted) together with a pigtail for each device. In the switch box, this means that there will be five wires in the splice: one from each cable and one for each switch. In the ceiling box there will be four wires in the splice: one from each cable and one for the fan/light combo.
We also don't need to include the fan wires; we know what those are.
Now, if I'm hearing you correctly, with all of the wires in the ceiling separated, there is always power on the black wire in Cable 1 in the ceiling, and turning S2 on feeds power to the black wire in C3. C2 is unaffected by switching. Is that right?
One more question: Does one breaker control all of the power in this system? Does turning one breaker off eliminate the power on C1 in the ceiling and the power that S2 can supply to C3 in the ceiling?
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Yes two three-wire cables (excluding the bare copper wire which I had in orange) and one two-wire cable. Just to be clear, when you say ground wire you mean bare copper or green wires. In the switch box there are three bare copper wires (in orange) which are attached to the switches via a screw down.
Correct, what I have labeled as WB1, the black wire is 120V and what I have labeled as WB3, black goes 120 only when switch2 is turned on.
The break does power down everything.
Thank you for engaging! The most strange part is that switch2 has 2 black wires attached. The two whites from those cables are pig-tailed and one red is hanging free.
Correct, what I have labeled as WB1, the black wire is 120V and what I have labeled as WB3, black goes 120 only when switch2 is turned on.
The break does power down everything.
Thank you for engaging! The most strange part is that switch2 has 2 black wires attached. The two whites from those cables are pig-tailed and one red is hanging free.
#6
Thank you for the clarification.
Actually, except for the red wire not being capped, that's sounding like the most normal part of this setup. Just kidding!
Presumably, the 2-wire cable in the ceiling (C3) is the 2-wire cable in the switch box (also C3, conveniently enough). That means that C2 in the switch box, the cable with the "loose" red wire, is an incoming power feed. But C1 in the ceiling also has an incoming power feed, on the black wire, with all of the wires in the ceiling box separated, and one breaker turns off the power to both.
If all of that is accurate, then C1 in the ceiling and C2 in the switch box are connected together somewhere upstream. Hmm.
One more question: Can you give us a link to a schematic for the dimmer control, Sw1? Or just tell us the manufacturer and the model? I'm trying to determine the function of each terminal on it, especially the one where the white wire is connected. If you have the paper that came with it, that might have that information. Or it might be molded into the back of the switch.
The most strange part is that switch2 has 2 black wires attached. The two whites from those cables are pig-tailed and one red is hanging free.
Presumably, the 2-wire cable in the ceiling (C3) is the 2-wire cable in the switch box (also C3, conveniently enough). That means that C2 in the switch box, the cable with the "loose" red wire, is an incoming power feed. But C1 in the ceiling also has an incoming power feed, on the black wire, with all of the wires in the ceiling box separated, and one breaker turns off the power to both.
If all of that is accurate, then C1 in the ceiling and C2 in the switch box are connected together somewhere upstream. Hmm.
One more question: Can you give us a link to a schematic for the dimmer control, Sw1? Or just tell us the manufacturer and the model? I'm trying to determine the function of each terminal on it, especially the one where the white wire is connected. If you have the paper that came with it, that might have that information. Or it might be molded into the back of the switch.
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I looked closely but could see no model number on the switch. When I looked at other switches on lowes.com, it looked similar to "3-way" switches in that four wires are connected. Image below:
#9
I've been thinking about this, and I think we may be over-thinking it. I still would like to be sure that the white wire attached to the dimmer switch functions to provide neutral, but there's not much else it could be if that dimmer is just a single-pole device controlling the lights. Does that switch have a night-light or a timer or some other feature that would require a complete circuit?
Your original take on this was correct: You're looking at more wires than you need to make the fan and light work properly. You only need two cables - one 2-wire and one 3-wire, to do that. That's 5 wires total. All 5 would appear in one box, and the three from the 3-wire cable would appear in the other, so it would look like 8, but that's OK. You've got what - 16? And in that, you've got two panel feeds.
So I want to focus on getting everything working the way you need it to. Here's what I'd like you to do next: Turn the power off. Put caps on the black wire and the red wire in C1 in the ceiling. take the two black wires off Switch 2 and straighten them out to where you can safely test them, and put a cap on each of those for now. Pull the neutral splice out so you can uncap it when you need to for a test.
I'm guessing, since you have a multimeter, that you can test for continuity. If so, before you turn the power back on, take a wire nut and use it to connect any two of the insulated wires in C2 in the ceiling - no need to make a splice, we're just testing. The remove the two wires with those same colors from the dimmer switch and test them for continuity. If you don't find continuity, come back here and report that, please.
If you do find continuity, put the two wires pack on the dimmer switch and remove the wire nut that's holding the wires together in the ceiling. Turn the power on and check each of the black wires from Switch 2 for voltage, hot-to-neutral, to see which one is the line feed.
So here's what we need:
Your original take on this was correct: You're looking at more wires than you need to make the fan and light work properly. You only need two cables - one 2-wire and one 3-wire, to do that. That's 5 wires total. All 5 would appear in one box, and the three from the 3-wire cable would appear in the other, so it would look like 8, but that's OK. You've got what - 16? And in that, you've got two panel feeds.
So I want to focus on getting everything working the way you need it to. Here's what I'd like you to do next: Turn the power off. Put caps on the black wire and the red wire in C1 in the ceiling. take the two black wires off Switch 2 and straighten them out to where you can safely test them, and put a cap on each of those for now. Pull the neutral splice out so you can uncap it when you need to for a test.
I'm guessing, since you have a multimeter, that you can test for continuity. If so, before you turn the power back on, take a wire nut and use it to connect any two of the insulated wires in C2 in the ceiling - no need to make a splice, we're just testing. The remove the two wires with those same colors from the dimmer switch and test them for continuity. If you don't find continuity, come back here and report that, please.
If you do find continuity, put the two wires pack on the dimmer switch and remove the wire nut that's holding the wires together in the ceiling. Turn the power on and check each of the black wires from Switch 2 for voltage, hot-to-neutral, to see which one is the line feed.
So here's what we need:
- the info on the dimmer switch;
- the continuity test from C2 in the ceiling to the switch box; and
- determination of the line feed location for Switch 2.
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Looks like the light of fan is on a 3 way. There should be another switch in that room
From the pic of the switch, the red and white are travelers and the black is your common
From the pic of the switch, the red and white are travelers and the black is your common
#14
There is another switch in the room but it never turned on/off the fan/light.
Because if it's just been a "dead" switch, then rich3236's suggestion that Switch 1 is a 3-way dimmer makes even more sense. And, if the second switch box is connected to the ceiling box via the first 3-wire cable (C1) in the ceiling, then that could become a second location to turn the fan light on/off. If you'd like to be able to do that.
Sorry for the delay. I'm working this today. Thx.
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Update: The other switch does have an effect on one of the cables from the ceiling. The cable I labeled WB1 (black, white, red) alternates 120V to the black wire (newSwitch down) and the red wire (newSwitch up). My girlfriend said she never used that switch and I think we prematurely settled on that meaning it had nothing to do with this setup - clearly it does. It could have turned the light on before.
I made some leads with alligator clips so I can quickly try different configurations. I'm going to update the diagram shortly.
I made some leads with alligator clips so I can quickly try different configurations. I'm going to update the diagram shortly.
#16
Update: The cable I labeled WB1 (black, white, red) alternates 120V to the black wire (newSwitch down) and the red wire (newSwitch up)... It could have turned the light on before.
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I'm trying to get Switch1 to control the light independently from Switch2 which should control the fan. Switch3 (the new one on the other side of the room) doesnt have to do anything as far as I'm concerned but it still seems important to getting things correctly wired.
The closest I've gotten was having Switch2 control the fan and light together. I've still not gotten Switch1 to independently control the light.
The closest I've gotten was having Switch2 control the fan and light together. I've still not gotten Switch1 to independently control the light.
#20
What I would do next is connect the red wires and the black wires in C1 and C2 (WB1 and WB2) in the ceiling together, color-to-color. Then I would restore the power, make sure the dimmer (Switch !) was on full, and test voltage between the white wire in C2 (WB2) and either known neutral - in C1 or C3 (WB1 or WB3). No need to do a full splice; this is just a test and you can make these connections by just twisting a wire nut on.
I think you said earlier that you remembered those two red wires being connected together.
I think you said earlier that you remembered those two red wires being connected together.
#21
I'm trying to get Switch1 to control the light independently from Switch2 which should control the fan. Switch3 (the new one on the other side of the room) doesnt have to do anything as far as I'm concerned
In the ceiling, I would cap the red and black wires in C1 (WB1), and the black wire in C2 (WB2). I would splice all of the ground wires together and add the fan's ground to that. I would do the same with all of the neutral (now all of the white) wires and the fan neutral. I would splice the fan motor wire to the black wire in C3 (WB3) and the fan light wire to the red wire in C2 (WB2).