3-Way switch strange configuration (diagram included)


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Old 05-28-12, 11:32 PM
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Question 3-Way switch strange configuration (diagram included)

I have 2 3-way switches one at each hallway that I decided to change out with newer rocker type switches. I carefully took note of where each wire went but after putting it all together, I get the case where if switch #1 is on, switch #2 does nothing in the on or off position. I tried to do some troubleshooting by taking off both switches and tracing the wires to see what I get. I found a strange configuration that I could not get my head around. No matter how I tried to connect this, things just got worse and worse which brought me to the internet... I've attached a diagram to help understand how this system was wired.

The strangest thing is the orange wire which is connected to the light at BOTH ends. I verified this by manually touching the black hot wire to the orange causing the light to turn on. I then did the exact same manual connection at the other end and the light again turned on. Both black wires at both ends are HOT. There's only one blue runner that goes from box1 to box2. Any suggestions?
 
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Old 05-29-12, 12:09 AM
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If that were really the configuration the blue wire would serve no purpose and whichever switch was used to turn the lamp on would also have to be used to turn the lamp off.
 
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Old 05-29-12, 12:47 AM
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Thanks for your reply Furd. This is exactly what's going on. This is a new home so perhaps this was always the case but I could swear things worked properly before. I will do more troubleshooting tomorrow to see if I can come up with an explanation.
 
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Old 05-29-12, 05:39 AM
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There were two key words missing from your description. They are Travler and Common. Of those two common is the most important. The fact you did not reference those two terms makes me wonder how familiar with 3-way switches you are.

On a three way switch the position of the common wire may be different for a different switch so you can not use the position of the wires on the old switch to determine the position on the new switch. You must use screw color. The odd colored screw, usually a dark color, is the common. Common screw is the key to getting it to work correctly.
 
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Old 05-29-12, 01:45 PM
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I carefully took note of where each wire went but...
You think you did, but what you evidently failed to note was which wire was connected to the common, or point, terminal on the switches you removed, and which two wires were connected to the two traveler terminals.

Both black wires at both ends are HOT.
Doubtful. How did you determine this?

Any suggestions?
Yes. Turn the power off and pull your new switches out in front of the boxes, with the wires still attached. Hold one of the old switches up next to it, oriented the way it was when it was in the wall. If, as seems likely, you moved wires by terminal position rather than by terminal function, note where the common terminal is on the old switch and where it is on the new switch. Move the wires on the new switch to match their function, as determined by which type of terminal they were connected to on the original switch.
 
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Old 05-29-12, 03:48 PM
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Doubtful. How did you determine this?
There is a hot in box1 because it supplies power to a second 3-way switch which controls lights in the 2nd hallway. I verified this set and found the two travelers (orange & blue) along with the hot common on box1 and the black common connected to the light fixture on the other end.

There was another hot connected to box2 because it supplies power to an outside light fixture. This same black wire was spliced into and connected to one of the 3 terminals on the 3-way switch. I was also able to verify two HOT wires on both ends by connecting it to the orange wire (see diagram above) and having the light come on. (The orange wire on the other end was not connected).

The mere fact that this orange wire supplies "hotness" to the light at BOTH ends just does not make sense to me. We had some workers remove a fixture that's part of the circuit for painting, Perhaps these people connected the traveler to something? I will check today when I get home.
 
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Old 05-29-12, 04:33 PM
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There is a hot in box1 because it supplies power to a second 3-way switch which controls lights in the 2nd hallway.
More complete information is almost always helpful!

Here's what we need to know:
  • How many switches are in box 1 and what type each is (single-throw or 3-way);
  • What each switch controls;
  • The number of cables or conduits that enter box 1;
  • The wires in each cable, by color;
  • How is each wire is connected - in a splice with Abcd, or on the X terminal of switch N;
  • The same information for box 2; and
  • The same information for the ceiling box - well, absent the switches and adding the fixture connections.
I understand that this may sound like a lot to ask for. It is. But the thing is, in order for us to help you effectively we need to be able to "see the job" as though we were standing there with you. If you can add some pictures, that might help. See How To Include Pictures.

FWIW, both orange and blue are essentially unheard of in residential systems. Orange is the designation for phase 2 of high-voltage 3-phase commercial systems, and blue is the designation for phase 3 of standard-voltage 3-phase commercial systems.
 
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Old 05-29-12, 04:39 PM
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Here is one of several common ways a 3-wire system can be wired. Does it look at all simalar to what you had?
<img src="https://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk116/ray2047/q303266_295318_3_way_wiring_1.jpg" width="160" height="120"/>
 
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Old 05-29-12, 07:47 PM
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Solved!

The riddle has been solved. My diagram was 100% correct... Apparently I thought one of the terminals on the old switch was the common but was wrong which caused all the issues. I ended up using a voltmeter with continuity to figure out the positions. Once I did this, I simply configured the new toggle the same way and everything worked. I then took note of the orientation and attached the configuration below (c=common, t=travelers).

Now that I look at it, it makes complete sense but it is a very strange configuration to say the least. Countless searches on the internet didn't come up with a configuration similar to this so I don't know what the electricians were thinking when they did this..

I want to thank everyone who helped. You learn new things every day...
 
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Old 05-29-12, 07:49 PM
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Glad you got it, and thank you for letting us know!
 
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Old 08-20-12, 08:20 PM
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Would that be a legal configuration.

I find that interesting.I am wondering if that is an accepted method.It seems that that circuit could thought to be turned off with one breaker and still get energized with one of the switches off of another breaker.
 
 

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