Add ceiling fan to switch that controls outlet


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Old 06-10-13, 07:56 PM
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Add ceiling fan to switch that controls outlet

I need help. I have begun to install a ceiling fan with light. I ran 14/2 wiring from fan to the switch. The switch controls one outlet, top and bottom. How can I add the fan wiring to switch. I do not care if outlet stays hot all time or stays controlled by switch. When switch is pulled out there is a black, white and ground wire. There is also a black white, red and ground wire. The red wire is pushed into neutral connection at bottom of switch. The blacks are connected at screw and pushed into back of switch. All grounds are tied together except one and all whites are tied together. Any and all help is appreciated.
 
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Old 06-10-13, 09:05 PM
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The red wire is pushed into neutral connection at bottom of switch.
A switch with out added functions such as a built in indicator light does not have a neutral.
The blacks are connected at screw and pushed into back of switch.
So one of those is a blacks is hot to the switch box from the power source and one is the unswitched hot to the receptacle. The red is the switched hot to the receptacle.

Assuming you want to no longer have a switch on the receptacle:
  • Disconnect the red wire and cap.
  • Conect the black from the new light where the red was on the switch.
  • Add the white from the new light to the bundle of whites.
At the receptacle you should have two black wires wire nutted together. If so:
  • Disconnect the red from the receptacle and cap off.
  • Add a pigtail to the two black wires and connect the pigtail to the receptacle. Alternately connect one black wire to each screw instead of using a pigtail.

Note the way the two blacks are spliced at the switch by connecting one to the screw and backstabbing is not best practice. They should have been connected to a pigtail and the pigtail to the screw. Backstabs are less reliable then screws.

All grounds are tied together except one
All wires must be tied together and pigtailed to the box if the box is metal. If the box is plastic all grounds must be tied together and pigtailed to the switch. Optionally with a metal box the grounds can be pigtailed to the switch in addition to the box.
 
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Old 06-11-13, 06:21 AM
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Welcome to the forums!

I have begun to install a ceiling fan with light.
This is doable. What you have to do to make it work depends on a couple of things. We'll need some more information to help you figure it out.

I ran 14/2 wiring from fan to the switch.
If you want to mount wall controls that will control the fan and the light independently. you need to replace that 14-2/G cable with NN-3/G cable.

The switch controls one outlet, top and bottom.
Is that receptacle on a 15A or a 20A circuit?

The red wire is pushed into neutral connection at bottom of switch.
A switch doesn't have neutral connection unless it needs a complete circuit for an internal function such as a light or timer. Neutral is never switched and a red wire should not be used as a neutral. Pictures will help us see what you have there. See How To Include Pictures.
 
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Old 06-11-13, 07:47 AM
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Nash has some good questions so please answer his before following my instructions and if anything is not exactly as I guessed it to be in my instructions post back the differences before starting. Also just to verify you did install a fan rated box didn't you?
 
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Old 06-11-13, 04:42 PM
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Sorry. Yes fan rated box installed with adjustable bars between rafters. It is a 15 amp circuit. One switch is fine by me I can use chains to turn each function on or off, unless something else is easier. Again, sorry did not mean to say neutral, but the red wire was back stabbed in lower connection on switch. After taking out receptacle I see 3 black wires that are capped off. The receptacle has 4 screws, 2 each side. Red wire is back stabbed high on one side with nothing else on that side. Grounds are pigtailed to ground screw. Finally 3 whites, two backstabbed on same side and one white attached to lowest screw. Help?
 
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Old 06-11-13, 05:22 PM
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3 black wires that are capped off.
Add a pigtail and replace the red wire with the pigtail. Cap off the red wire.

3 whites, two backstabbed on same side and one white attached to lowest screw.
Best practice never use backstabs. They are lass reliable than screws. Best practice is to connect all three white wires to a pigtail and the pigtail to one of the three screws.

Wire the switch as stated in my post. Best practice would have been to use 3-conductor cable instead of two conductor cable to the switch and use a duplex switch so you have separate switches for fan* and light.

*Many advise to control the fan only with the chain or a fan speed control. Stating a fan on less than high can be hard on the motor. When you use a separate wire for the fan it is easy to use either of those options.
 
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Old 06-11-13, 05:43 PM
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Ok, did as stated. When I turn breaker back on everything is good but when I turn switch on, it trips the breaker.
 
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Old 06-11-13, 06:15 PM
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Sounds like you either hooked a neutral to the switch or something shorted when you put the switch in the box. The only wires on the switch should be the black from the cable to the fan and the pigtail from the group of other blacks that were already in the switch box. Is that what you have?

At the fan the house black should go to the fan's black and the fans blue. The house white to the fan white. Is that what you did?

Does the receptacle work?
 
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Old 06-11-13, 06:47 PM
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I'm pretty sure in switch box all whites and grounds are capped with pigtail from grounds to ground screw. Screwed black wire from fan to switch and pigtailed other two blacks to other screw. I am 100% positive everything in/at fan is connected correctly. Didn't have time to check receptacle as wife is in bed now so it's a to be continued tomorrow. Thank you for the help, it's greatly and graciously appreciated. I'm sure if I have a problem tomorrow I will be back. I will also be back to thank you all again if and when I get this working.
 
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Old 06-11-13, 07:37 PM
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Try with the switch pulled out and wires carefully positioned. Sometimes when you put the switch in the ground wire will touch a hot screw.
 
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Old 06-11-13, 08:25 PM
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Didn't have time to check receptacle as wife is in bed now so it's a to be continued tomorrow.
At the receptacle, you should have all three wires in each phase spliced together, plus a pigtail in each splice which is connected to the receptacle: black to brass, white to silver and bare ground to green.

It is a 15 amp circuit.
OK. The 14 AWG wiring is appropriate.

If you would like to control just the light from the wall and control the fan with the pull chain then you need to replace the piece of 14-2/G between the switch and the ceiling with a piece of 14-3/G. If you want to control both the light and the fan from the wall, you can either replace the cable or use a wall controller such as the Hunter All Fan/Light Wall Mount Control, which will control each function independently with only a 2-conductor cable.
 
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Old 06-12-13, 06:40 AM
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Alright so when breaker is turned on receptacle works with lights etc. when I turn the switch on it still trips the breaker. I have the switch pulled out and everything wired as stated. Ideas or suggestions?
 
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Old 06-12-13, 07:44 AM
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After thinking about it I know the fan had 2 different grounds, assuming one for light and one for fan. The fan rated box in ceiling had ground screw in that and the box obviously is metal. Should I have attached any of those grounds up top into the ground screw or was it ok to splice them together with ground in 14/2 running to switch, which then splice into everything at switch and pigtails to ground screw on switch? Is it possible wiring in fan could be loose or touching inappropriately to be causing the trip? Just looking for ideas suggestions.
 
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Old 06-12-13, 08:26 AM
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Is it possible wiring in fan could be loose or touching inappropriately to be causing the trip?
Yes. Switch box though as I suggested earlier seems more likely*. And to answer your first question the grounds must be connected together and if the box is metal pigtailed to the box.

*If the connections in the fan box are properly made there is no hot for a bare ground wire to touch. In the switch box you have the two bare screws on the switch for the bare ground to touch.
 
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Old 06-12-13, 09:30 AM
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Alright so when breaker is turned on receptacle works with lights etc. when I turn the switch on it still trips the breaker. I have the switch pulled out and everything wired as stated. Ideas or suggestions?
Did you double-check the wiring at the receptacle?

Originally Posted by Nashkat1
At the receptacle, you should have all three wires in each phase spliced together, plus a pigtail in each splice which is connected to the receptacle: black to brass, white to silver and bare ground to green.
Red wire capped.

The wiring at the switch should be the two white wires spliced together, the grounds spliced together, bonded to the box if it's metal, and bonded to the switch, and the two blacks connected to the switch, one to each power terminal, with no bare conductor beyond what is needed to form the loop around each screw. Red wire capped.

I know the fan had 2 different grounds, assuming one for light and one for fan. The fan rated box in ceiling had ground screw in that and the box obviously is metal. Should I have attached any of those grounds up top into the ground screw
Yes. The ground wire in the 14-2/G cable from the switch should go to the ground screw before it is spliced to the grounds for the fan/light combo. IOW, you need to do both.

or was it ok to splice them together with ground in 14/2 running to switch, which then splice into everything at switch and pigtails to ground screw on switch?
This is also necessary.

Is it possible wiring in fan could be loose or touching inappropriately to be causing the trip?
In the factory wiring in the fan? Extremely unlikely. If you have a splice in the switched power conductor in the ceiling that is showing any uninsulated conductor outside the wire nut, that could be the problem.

Look for the mark from the arc flash as you investigate. It may be clear enough to show you where the problem is.
 
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Old 06-12-13, 09:31 AM
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Alright, just went back through fan housing etc and all wires are connected properly grounds to box etc. the receptacle has power when breaker is turned on but still as soon as switch is turned on trips breaker. Switch is pulled out so nothing is touching screws and all white wires are capped and away from everything as well as grounds. Any other suggestions? Again I thank you all wholeheartedly for the help.
 
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Old 06-12-13, 10:42 AM
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At this point as a test I would disconnect the cable at the fan, put wires nuts on the black and white, Then test again to see if the breaker trips. If it doesn't then somehow the problem is with the fan. If it does trip disconnect the cable to the fan at the switch and test again. If the breaker doesn't trip the cable is bad.

If you can first post pictures of the wiring at the fan and switch. http://www.doityourself.com/forum/li...-pictures.html
 
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Old 06-12-13, 10:45 AM
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Without a picture of the ceiling and switch box wiring, I suspect a switch loop is involved. Someone may have not marked the white as a hot.
 
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Old 06-12-13, 11:07 AM
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Have you checked the wiring at the receptacle?
 
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Old 06-12-13, 12:25 PM
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See if pics help hereName:  image.jpg
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Old 06-12-13, 12:33 PM
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I will say there is way too much bare hot conductor showing at the switch terminals. This may be touching the ground when turned on and stuffed into the box. You could try turning the switch on out of the box and see if the breaker still trips.

The loop should go clock-wise around the screw.
 
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Old 06-12-13, 12:52 PM
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Still trips breaker even when switch is pulled out of box.
 
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Old 06-12-13, 01:07 PM
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Is that with the fan cable disconnected at the switch? If so do you have a multimeter?
 
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Old 06-12-13, 01:12 PM
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It appears that you haven't rewired the receptacle, and that there may be a black wire and a white wire on the same terminal. Not sure why its working with the switch off but maybe there's something I'm not seeing.

Splice the three black wires together and add an 8" black pigtail. Terminate the pigtail by looping it clockwise and crimping it around one of the two brass terminal screws. Make sure there is no bare conductor exposed outside the wire nut over the splice or away from the terminal screw. Tighten both brass terminal screws.

Splice the three white wires together and add an 8" white pigtail. Terminate the pigtail by looping it clockwise and crimping it around one of the two silver terminal screws. Make sure there is no bare conductor exposed outside the wire nut over the splice or away from the terminal screw. Tighten both silver terminal screws.

Do not use any of the backstab terminals.

The ground wire looks OK.

Correct the wiring on the switch as PCboss suggested.
 
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Old 06-12-13, 02:24 PM
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Yes the receptacle seems like a mess and is hard to tell what is what as I assume when house was painted wiring was already done and they used a sprayer to prime everything. The switch has been taken care of per pcboss. Unfortunately I am short on time and go back in to work tomorrow so I will attempt the receptacle again on Saturday before heading in to night work. I will let you all know then the prognosis. Again thank you all for the help and suggestions. Until Saturday fine folks.
 
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Old 06-12-13, 03:25 PM
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Until Saturday.

is hard to tell what is what as I assume when house was painted wiring was already done and they used a sprayer to prime everything.
That happens more often than not. The paint should pop right off if you run your thumbnail down the wire.
 
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Old 06-15-13, 08:15 AM
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Alright ladies and gentleman directions have been flowed to a tee. At receptacle all whites spliced and pigtailed tied in to silver screw, same for blacks but make it a brass screw, and same for grounds into receptacle ground screw. Red is capped. At light switch all whites are spliced and capped, grounds same but tied into ground screw and one black from fan on screw and 2 blacks spliced and pigtailed to screw. When breaker is on receptacle top and bottom works and when I turn switch on still trips breaker. So still got the same problem. Any ideas suggestions? Again thank you all for your patience.
 
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Old 06-15-13, 08:21 AM
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Have you tried this from an earlier post:
At this point as a test I would disconnect the cable at the fan, put wires nuts on the black and white, Then test again to see if the breaker trips. If it doesn't then somehow the problem is with the fan. If it does trip disconnect the cable to the fan at the switch and test again. If the breaker doesn't trip the cable is bad.
 
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Old 06-15-13, 08:40 AM
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No but that is the next step for me. I am unfortunately getting ready for work now so I will have to wait till Monday to try it. Again, thank you all for everything.
 
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Old 06-15-13, 09:16 AM
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Hang in there. We have eliminated the possibles. Now we are eliminating the probables.
 
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Old 06-18-13, 07:32 AM
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Alright ladies and gentleman,

Receptacle and switch are wired per this thread. Took fan down and capped black and white at ceiling. Turned breaker on, flipped switch and heard a pop, unsure where, but breaker does not trip when switch is turned on and off. So am I now to assume there is a problem with the fan? What step/steps should be taken now?
 
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Old 06-18-13, 09:03 AM
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So am I now to assume there is a problem with the fan? What step/steps should be taken now?
Given the "pop" I'm leaning more toward the cable. What's in your junk room? I'd wire a light fixture to the spot where you want the fan and see if the light works. (If no light fixture connect a receptacle and plug in a lamp.) Higher the wattage bulb the better.

(Actually I'd probably test the fan by wiring it to a cord through a 5 amp fuse and plugging it in but that test is really not needed.)
 
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Old 06-18-13, 01:03 PM
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Alright, just happened to be over lowes way, so returned fan, came home, ran new 14-3 wiring in place of 14-2, capped wires at ceiling, turned on breaker, no pop or anything heard this time. Inspecting 14-2 wiring found a nick or two on sheathing exposing some of the wire. Hopefully.....assume wiring was bad and go ahead with installation of fan with light? Also with the new 14-3 wire, red to blue in ceiling, black to black etc, then at switch splice red and black pigtail onto switch? Or backstab red? Thanks everyone.
 
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Old 06-18-13, 01:44 PM
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Inspecting 14-2 wiring found a nick or two on sheathing exposing some of the wire.
That sounds like the likely cause.

No code on colors for the ungrounded wires but normal wiring is black for fan motor and red for fan light.
 
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Old 06-18-13, 06:04 PM
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Ladies and gentleman I thank you all. After running new wiring, fan and lights work just fine. I will make the assumption the problem was with the old wiring having some cuts through insulation. I thank you all for the input and the problem is solved.
 
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Old 06-18-13, 06:45 PM
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Most EXCELLENT! Thank you for letting us know the outcome.
 
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Old 06-18-13, 08:15 PM
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Well done .
 
 

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