Which wire goes where? (Light Switch)


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Old 02-09-13, 11:24 AM
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Which wire goes where? (Light Switch)

Hello, first post here and hopefully I don't say anything to make myself sound like an idiot right off the bat.

I'm replacing light switches in my wife's office for aesthetic reasons only. Problem is when I switched the old switches with the new, I'm getting no ability to turn the switch off and on, it simply stays hot all the time. One light switch I feel fairly confident that everything is wired as it should be, although it stays hot all of the time also. The other switch, well thats a different story. The 2nd switch had two red wires connected to the old switch, so since I wasnt familiar with having more than one red wire, I configured the new switch exactly the same as the old.

Im not sure what else to say...but help. Oh, and both switches control wall outlets on the adjacent wall in the same room. The new switches are single pole and are manufactured by Adair.

Thanks in advance
 
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Old 02-09-13, 11:31 AM
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I apologize for the sideways pictures, I took them with my cell phone and have tried rotating them right, left, etc and for some reason they still came out that way.

Anyway, the first picture shows both light switches. The one on the left is the one I feel confident (a dangerous thing) about being wired correctly. The one on the right obviously is the other that I'm not so sure about.

2nd picture is the left switch and how it is wired. The next picture that I add to this post is the right switch and the excess wires that im not so sure about.
 
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Old 02-09-13, 11:59 AM
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Welcome to the forums!

The box you show in the picture has one 3-conductor cable entering it, with all three conductore somehow connected to a switch that only has two two terminals.

The likelihood is that the switch you removed was a 3-way switch. If so, you will have to replace it with a 3-way switch. 3-way switches work in pairs. I'll guess that the other switch that "stays hot all the time" is where the other 3-way switch should be. And when you say
both switches control wall outlets on the adjacent wall in the same room.
I'm guessing that it's one set of outlets that can be turned off or on from either switch.

If so, buy two 3-way switches and an inexpensive analog multimeter. We can help you use the multimeter to determine which wire needs to be connected to the common terminal on each switch.

If not, post back to clarify what you have.

Edit, adding information from third picture: Yes, this is a 3-way switching setup. Neither switch is wired correctly, and they can't be. When you have the two 3-way switches and the meter, let us know and we'll tell you how to determine which wire needs to go to each of the six terminals.

At a glance, there appears to be a white wire, spliced to two black wires in the third photo, that is in a 3-conductor cable with a black and a red that are connected to the single-position switch. At a guess, that cable goes to the other switch box. If so, the white wire needs to be marked with black or red electrical tape or magic marker at each end, to show that it is carrying ungrounded current, and connected to the common screw on the switch going in the box with only one cable. The black and red wires in that cable will be connected to the two traveler terminals.

In the box with the two-color splice, the black and red from the 3-conductor cable will connect to the two traveler terminals. The black wire feeding the receptacles will connect to the common terminal.

But I'm just guessing. It could be set up a different way.
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 02-09-13 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 02-09-13, 06:26 PM
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NashKat, thank you very much for the quick response. Surprisingly, I think I fully understand how I need to proceed from this point based on your explanation. I will definitely post back tomorrow with a follow up. Items needed to complete this project...

*Replace current switches with 3 way switches

*Use multimeter to determine placement of each wire

*Mark the white wire (on both ends) common to each box as being 'ungrounded'.

After looking at the old switch I believe you are correct that it is indeed a 3 way switch (duh). For some odd reason I chose to use both the screw AND push connection of the same terminal on the new single pole switch. Seems I was determined to make a square fit into a circle hole (figuratively).
 
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Old 02-10-13, 12:21 PM
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Ok, so I've connected the wires in the box with only one cable. White to common, red & black to 'traveler terminals', there is no ground wire. Easy enough, but...

In the box with multiple cables you said..

In the box with the two-color splice, the black and red from the 3-conductor cable will connect to the two traveler terminals. The black wire feeding the receptacles will connect to the common terminal.
If I understand you right you're saying that the black wire (the one inside the black cable) will connect to the common terminal, the red wire from the same cable will connect to a traveler terminal, and another black wire? will connect to the other traveler terminal? Im confused because im left with a red wire and no 2nd black wire.

I know you told me that this was a guess based soley off of the pictures I presented so I am in no way trying to question your knowledge. I just think I may have taken a wrong turn at Albuquerque.
 
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Old 02-10-13, 12:41 PM
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I've illustrated the connections in the following pics. If all else fails....reverse the two reds in the second picture.
 
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Old 02-10-13, 02:26 PM
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Ok the first switch is hooked up correctly.

The second switch (multiple cables) has the black and red wires from the bottom right cable as 'travelers'. Im left with an unaccounted for red wire from the bottom left cable. Was i supposed to cap that wire and use the same white wire thats commom to the other switch as the common wire for this switch?
 
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Old 02-10-13, 04:37 PM
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The red and blacks are the travelers and the left over red is the common.....odd screw.
 
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Old 08-04-13, 02:46 PM
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I've tried setting the switches up per your suggestion PJ but nothing happens at the outlets when the switches are flipped. Any other suggestions on what I may be doing wrong?
 
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Old 08-04-13, 07:19 PM
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Ok the first switch is hooked up correctly.
OK. There's only one way to wire that switch, so it should be. Did you mark the white wire with black or red permanent marker or electrical tape to show that it's carrying ungrounded power? If not, you need to do that.

The second switch (multiple cables) has the black and red wires from the bottom right cable as 'travelers'. Im left with an unaccounted for red wire from the bottom left cable. Was i supposed to cap that wire and use the same white wire thats commom to the other switch as the common wire for this switch?
I missed something the first time through, and I think PJ may have too.

In the box with more than one cable, I'm seeing three black wires, three white wires and two red wires. That, plus the question you just asked, tell me that you have one 2-conductor cable and two 3-conductor cables in that box. Is that correct?

If it is, here's what appears to be happening: The power from the panel comes in through the 2-cunductor cable. One of the 3-conductor cables goes to the other switch and the other one goes to the first receptacle, presumably to carry both switched and unswitched power plus neutral to the receptacles.

Do you think that that is the case and, if so, do you know which of the cables goes to which?

Here's my best guess: The splice of two white wires should have the white wire from the panel, which is in the 2-cunductor cable, and the white wire going to the first receptacle in it. That makes the 3-conductor cable that the second white wire is in the receptacle feed.

Try this: Mark the white wire at the first switch and mount that switch. At the second switch, open up the splice with the two black wires and one white wire. Verify that those three wires are the black wire coming from the panel in the 2-conductor cable, the black wire in the 3-conductor cable going to the first receptacle, and the white wire going to the first switch. If so, mark that white wire as a hot wire and put the splice back together. Connect the black and red wires in the cable going to the first switch to the traveler terminals on this switch. Connect the last loose wire - the red wire going to the first receptacle, to the common terminal on this switch.

Mount the second switch, turn the power on, and try everything. You should now have duplex receptacles with one half always hot and the other half controlled from either switch.
 
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Old 08-05-13, 03:38 PM
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NashKat,

YES..the white wire in box #1 is marked for ungrounded current

YES...box #2 has (1) two conductor cable and (2) three conductor cables

YES...I believe that power comes in from the panel through the 2 conductor cable...etc.
NO...Im not sure which cable goes where but I strongly agree with your guess. Box #1 and #2 both have one 3 conductor cable and the cable has a black jacket so I believe your assumption is the same as mine.

I have done all of this and still no switched power at the receptacles. Im at a loss
 
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Old 08-05-13, 03:43 PM
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I have done all of this and still no switched power at the receptacles.
Are all four receptacles always hot, or just one on each yoke? Did you replace the receptacles?
 
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Old 08-05-13, 04:10 PM
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All four are always hot. The receptacles were replaced at the same time as the switches
 
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Old 08-05-13, 08:04 PM
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The receptacles were replaced at the same time as the switches
Uh huh, OK. Did you remove the tab from the hot side of the new receptacles?
 
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Old 08-05-13, 08:22 PM
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What is this elusive "tab" you speak of Mr. NashKat?
 
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Old 08-05-13, 08:35 PM
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Ok, I just googled the receptacle tab you mentioned and then went and inspected my receptacles....and of course there is a tab on each and every receptacle in that room.

From what I read, removing this tab allows you to connect the upper and lower outlets to separate wires and control them independently. I haven't removed the tab yet to check if it works but boy do I feel stupid right now
 
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Old 08-05-13, 09:51 PM
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Well, feed them independently. Control is a separate option.

It's the upper and lower receptacles, BTW. The complete device, with two receptacles on one yoke, Is formally called a duplex receptacle. The box that the device is in is a wall outlet. So is the box each switch is in.

Hey, everybody's green once. Hang in there. The good news is that you're learning. And that you're open to learning.
 
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Old 08-06-13, 06:53 AM
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First off, thanks for being as patient as you have been, thats not always the norm on internet forums.

Good news: After removing the tabs the lower receptacle is hot all the time and the upper is supposedly ready to be controlled by the switch.

Bad news: The upper receptacle is NOT being controlled by the switch(es)...no switched power

1. I have one outlet that has (2) three conductor cables in it. Black/black on one terminal, red/red, white/white, and the two ground wires.

2. Another outlet has (1) three conductor cable and each wire is placed accordingly on each receptacle terminal

There are 4 more outlets in the room with (2) two conductor cables in them. All wires are placed accordingly on each receptacle terminal...white/white, black/black, and ground

I did not remove the tabs from the (4) two conductor receptacles because I didn't think it was necessary since I didnt want those receptacles to be switched on and off. Would not removing those tabs be the reason why the other two (#1 & 2) upper receptacles arent working as planned? Do the other 4 duplex receptacles complete the circuit?
 
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Old 08-06-13, 07:23 AM
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1. I have one outlet that has (2) three conductor cables in it. Black/black on one terminal, red/red, white/white, and the two ground wires.
2. Another outlet has (1) three conductor cable and each wire is placed accordingly on each receptacle terminal
Can you post pictures of the connections? http://www.doityourself.com/forum/li...-pictures.html
 
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Old 08-06-13, 08:27 AM
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The three different receptacles


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Old 08-06-13, 08:37 AM
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And the switches

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Old 08-06-13, 01:00 PM
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Bad news: The upper receptacle is NOT being controlled by the switch(es)...no switched power
Well, something isn't right.

There are two things that I would check. The first is the wiring at the switches.

The wires appear to go to the correct terminals at the second, or remote, 3-way switch, but they do not appear to be terminated to the screws. If those conductors are just pushed into stab-back holes in the back of the switch, as they appear to be, you need to pull them out, strip a bit more insulation is necessary, and connect them by bending and crimping each one around the appropriate terminal screw. BTW, I don't see a ground wire there. Is there not one in that cable?

At the switch that has one 2-conductor cable and two 3-conductor cables, we've gone through the connections by switch terminal and splice point. Let's try going through them by cable. It might help to take everything there apart and start over, but you don't necessarily have to. I'll just go through the wires in the two 3-conductor cables. Doing that will pick up the wires in the 2-conductor cable too.

IIRC, you said that you could distinguish between the two 3-conductor cables because only one of them had a black sheath. If, in addition, one of them contains a grounding conductor and the other doesn't, that's another way to keep them straight.

First, the 3-conductor going to the other switch. The red and black wires in that cable go to the two traveler terminals on the switch. The white wire in that cable gets marked as a hot wire and spliced to the black wire in the 2-conductor cable.

Next, the 3-conductor going to the first switched receptacle. The black wire in that cable gets spliced with the black wire in the 2-conductor and the tagged white wire going to the second switch. The white wire gets spliced to the white wire in the 2-conductor. The red wire is terminated to the common terminal on the switch.

In that box, it appears that there are two ground wires. I guess there isn't one in the cable going to the second switch. Those two ground wires appear to be spliced together but not connected to either the metal box or the switch. You need to make both of those connections. Add one or two pigtails to the ground wire splice if you need to.

Now the receptacles:
1. I have one outlet that has (2) three conductor cables in it. Black/black on one terminal, red/red, white/white, and the two ground wires.

2. Another outlet has (1) three conductor cable and each wire is placed accordingly on each receptacle terminal
Did you remove only one tab from each receptacle? The tab on the hot side needs to be removed. The tab on the neutral needs to be left in place.

You have all of the individual wires going to the first switched receptacle. How are they terminated? None of them should be pushed into a back-stab hole. They can all go to the duplex receptacle if it has back-clamp terminals. A back-clamp terminal has two slots immediately behind a metal plate which clamps the wires in place when the terminal screw is tightened.

If your devices have plain screw terminals, you need to splice the two red wires from the cables together with a red pigtail and terminate that pigtail by curling and crimping it around the brass terminal screw for the receptacle you want to have controlled by the switch. Do the same thing, with a black pigtail, with the two black wires coming in. So long as the two silver terminal screws are connected by a tab, you can put one white wire on each screw.

The second switched receptacle just needs to be checked for a neutral-side tab in place and proper terminations, not using back stab holes.

There are 4 more outlets in the room with (2) two conductor cables in them. All wires are placed accordingly on each receptacle terminal...white/white, black/black, and ground
There does not appear to be wiring that connects these to the other two. For now, I'm assuming they are fed separately, and could even be on another circuit.

This should resolve everything. I hope so.
 
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Old 08-06-13, 01:11 PM
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I will go through everything again per your instruction. But I can already tell you that I (in haste) removed the receptacle tab on both sides, not just the hot side. Guess I need to buy two new receptacles

All wires in the receptacles were terminated by pushing them into the space directly behind the terminal screws. I loosened the terminal screw, slid the wire behind the slotted brass tab, then screwed it back down to tighten. I only used the spring loaded back stab holes on the single cable 3-conductor switch, I will change that one also
 
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Old 08-06-13, 01:33 PM
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Receptacle
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Old 08-06-13, 05:01 PM
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I will go through everything again per your instruction. But I can already tell you that I (in haste) removed the receptacle tab on both sides, not just the hot side.
You can check the connections again if you'd like to. It won't hurt, but you'll only have either the always-hot receptacle or the switched receptacle working on the half-switched receptacles until you make the neutral connection complete again.

Guess I need to buy two new receptacles
Yep. It's either that or do a bunch of pigtailing.

Here's a quick test for the switch wiring that you can do before you go to the store. Swap the two neutrals on the first switched receptacle. If the switches are wired correctly, that will give you switch control on the receptacle that's fed with the red wire and no power on the other receptacle on that yoke.

All wires in the receptacles were terminated by pushing them into the space directly behind the terminal screws. I loosened the terminal screw, slid the wire behind the slotted brass tab, then screwed it back down to tighten.
Your new picture shows the back=clamp terminals clearly, so those are done the way they are meant to be. Too bad you need to replace them.

I only used the spring loaded back stab holes on the single cable 3-conductor switch, I will change that one also.
The clamp plates on that switch look bent. As much as I dislike and distrust back-stab connections, I think I might have used them on that one too. Can you spring for a replacement for that switch while you're at the store? The plates are a real PITA to straighten out.

BTW, Tech Note: A common error in terminating wires is the tendency to over-tighten the screw. A good hand-tightening is all they need.

On the shopping list: Green ground screws if there are tapped holes in the metal boxes. Push-on ground clips if they don't have those holes.
 
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Old 08-06-13, 08:02 PM
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Thumbs up

IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!:HF2:

I bought new receptacles, removed the tab from the hot side ONLY, rewired the receptacles, flipped the switch and WALAAH....switched power! (upper receptacle only)

I cant thank you guys enough Nashkat1 and PJmax. Especially you Nashkat, and Im guessing you have ALOT of years experience in this field given the amount of patience you had dealing with some of my idiotic questions & screw ups.

Is there a donation page or something of the like? I really feel like I need to give back to the community, this would have been at least $100 or more if I called someone out to the house. I see you're in the VA area, my wifes family lives in Richmond, DC, and on the eastern shore (Onancock), maybe I can buy you a beer next time we're up there.
 
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Old 08-06-13, 08:28 PM
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Glad you got it, and thanks for letting us know.
 
 

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