Wiring Two Lights With a Duplex Switch


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Old 09-28-13, 05:48 PM
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Wiring Two Lights With a Duplex Switch

Here's the situation. I have three lights in my kitchen. The switches are all in the same box. One single deco switch controls the fluorescent above the range area. The other two lights (one above the dining table and cans over the bar) are controlled from a duplex switch. I recently had changed out the switches from the old standard switches to the new decorator rockers (single rocker and double rocker) and didnt run into any issues. Since that time I decided to change out the light over the dining table and this is where I'm having issues.

I did not see how the previous light was wired, unfortunately. That's really the crux of my problem and I need help getting past this. When I hooked up the new ceiling light the way I did, neither of the lights fed from the duplex worked. The fluorescent on its own rocker was fine. There is a jumble of pigtails in the box , but I know for the most part what all my wires are that lead up to the ceiling and labeled them. I know which one the hot coming in is that I hooked into the common terminal on the duplex. The two wires coming off the duplex are a hot black and a hot white (I assume).

In the ceiling box there are two sets of 3 wires. Black, white, and ground. I know which wire contains the hot white and hot black. I can only assume the other set of wires is what leads to the cans over the bar. The new light is just a simple white, black, ground hookup. How does this need to be hooked up? I have tried several ways and I can get power to the light according to a tester. I cannot get it or the cans to turn on. I assume the issue comes from not completing the circuit somewhere.

I appreciate any help that can be given here. I have been able to change out several lights, ceiling fans and switches in the past with no issue. I have spent much time trying to figure this out and really want to know an answer if there is one out there to be given.
 
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Old 09-28-13, 06:02 PM
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No such critter as a "hot white". There may be if you have a switch loop a white that was not correctly remarked as an ungrounded conductor (hot). If you do have two switch loops at the duplex switch then the tab between the two screws should have been removed on the switch. Was the tab removed on the old switch?
 
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Old 09-28-13, 06:04 PM
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Welcome to the forums.

When we discuss cables it's two wire or three wire. The ground is understood and not counted.

You are missing something.
You are telling us that you have a hot feed to the duplex switch.... OK
You're telling us that there is a two wire cable from that duplex switch to the ceiling light... OK
You have a two wire cable in the ceiling to feed the second fixture..... OK

How are you getting the neutral from the switch box to the ceiling light ?
 
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Old 09-28-13, 06:16 PM
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That's what I am wondering myself. I did not take any wires out, nor add any. There are only three usable wires for the duplex in the switch box. The hot feed in and a two wire up to the ceiling.

Also, when I initially installed the new duplex I did not remove the tab and the lights worked fine.
 
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Old 09-28-13, 06:58 PM
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If you don't have a neutral then it may mean that those fixtures were getting their neutral off of the ground which is incorrect to do. In order to get a neutral up there now you either need to replace the two wire from the switch to the ceiling box with a piece of three wire cable or convert that two wire feed to a one switch circuit.
 
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Old 09-28-13, 07:36 PM
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Your last post, PJmax, reminded me of something. I now remember that while taking the old light down there was in fact a ground wire nutted to the white or black wires. I believe it was the ground from the cable coming from the switch. The ground for the cable leading to the other light was shoved up into the box and unused. Does that maybe make this make a bit more sense?

One other thing I need to mention is that there is little chance that a new wire can be ran. The attic area above the kitchen is pretty well cut off from the rest of the house due to a vaulted ceiling in the living room. There is also about 2 feet of blown in insulation there as well.
 
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Old 09-28-13, 07:52 PM
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There was probably just one switch there to one light and someone wanted to switch two lights with two switches and added the duplex switch. That circuit was wired incorrectly. The ground wire is never used to carry neutral. It's there as a safety to shunt hazardous shorts to ground.
 
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Old 09-28-13, 09:24 PM
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So, out of curiosity i wired the new light up using the ground as the neutral. It works. Thats the way the old fixture was hooked up for sure. I could see the wire nut mark on the wire. This house was bought 21 years ago by my father. It was built 25 years ago. That light had been over the dining room table wired that way as long as the house has been owned by my family. Leads me to believe it was wired that way when built.

That poses the question: Is there any way that could have been done safely? If this a 100% for sure do not hook those lights up that way I wont. I have probably gleaned enough knowledge trying to solve this problem I could likely rewire the entire switch box and just have the cans and new light controlled off one switch.

The one thing that makes me most curious about the wiring is that the ground wire ends from all three cables (one in and two out) in the switch are all connected and terminated at a wire nut. Would that not mean all grounds in that circuit are carrying current? Is my house potentially not grounded at all?
 
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Old 09-28-13, 09:53 PM
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If this a 100% for sure do not hook those lights up that way I wont.
I'm not going to repeat my answer again.

The ground wire and the neutral are tied to the same location in the panel. The neutral is there to carry the return from the hot. It completes the path. Ground is connected to all devices so that if any device shorts out it carries the short back to the panel. It sits there and does absolutely nothing until there is a short. It's there for safety.

Now....you are using the ground as a neutral and the ground circuit opens. That means that everything that is supposed to be grounded is now hot carrying the return path from the hot. The consequences could be disastrous.
 
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Old 09-28-13, 10:15 PM
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'Nuff said. I removed the duplex and taped the hot end of the feed off. Luckily this is the only odd switch in the house aside from a few three ways which i feel safe are wired properly. One of the prior light fixtures I recently replaced was on a three way and was straightforward to hook up.

Assuming I can get this wired so a proper neutral return is involved I have options to try.
 
 

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