Replacing Master Bedroom Ceiling Fan

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Old 11-03-13, 12:01 PM
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Replacing Master Bedroom Ceiling Fan

After removing the old HEAVY ceiling fan, I have one double white wire coming out of the ceiling, which splits into two. One side was connected to the old fan's one green wire & one white wire. The other side was connected to the old fan's one black & one blue wire.

After my recent experience with replacing exterior lights (thanks for the help!), I was half-way expecting to see a metal box with one black, one white & one ground wire coming out of the ceiling, so I'm a bit hesitant to move forward.

All helpful thoughts & guidance on how to proceed are truly appreciated.

Also, if anyone has suggestions on 52" energy star rated ceiling fans, I'm all ears.
Thanks!




 
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Old 11-03-13, 12:11 PM
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After removing the old HEAVY ceiling fan, I have one double white wire coming out of the ceiling, which splits into two. One side was connected to the old fan's one green wire & one white wire. The other side was connected to the old fan's one black & one blue wire.
What is a "double white wire?" Are you referring to an xx-2/G cable with one white wire and one black wire in it?

Your first picture shows a black wire spliced to a white wire. How is the seitch for this box wired?

Is the ceiling box rated for fan support?
 
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Old 11-03-13, 12:12 PM
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Wow.... where do I start. You've got some issues there.

Right now that fan is being fed by two conductor #18 lamp cord wire. Is appears that the required junction box is not in the ceiling so you need to determine where that lamp cord is connected. That's going to need to be replaced. They currently have the ground tied to neutral.... that is also wrong.
 
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Old 11-03-13, 02:11 PM
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What is a "double white wire?"
A "double white wire" is what is coming out of the ceiling (see 2 last pics).
 
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Old 11-03-13, 02:28 PM
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A "double white wire" is what is coming out of the ceiling (see 2 last pics).
That looks like lamp cord. Is that what it is? As PJ wrote:
you need to determine where that lamp cord is connected. That's going to need to be replaced.
Can you post a picture of the wiring at the switch? So far it looks like you need to start from scratch to install a fan.
 
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Old 11-03-13, 02:51 PM
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The double white wire is lamp cord and needs to be replaced.

The box was never correct for a ceiling fan. What probably saved it was the bracket bolted to the framing.

The wiring was wrong as the neutral was also being used to ground the fixture.
 
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Old 11-03-13, 03:37 PM
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What probably saved it was the bracket bolted to the framing.
The direct mounting to framing plus that iconic hook for the fan to hang from -- I've got $5 that says the old fan is one of Hunter's classics. Oh, additional evidence:
the old HEAVY ceiling fan,
Those old Hunters don't care whether you have a deep, bracketed, fan-rated box or an aluminum pancake box or no box at all, as far as mechanical support goes. They're not going to use it anyway. This is still my favorite way to mount a ceiling fan, BTW. It'll stay up there until the house falls down.

c1351996, if I'm right and this is an older Hunter fan, why are you taking it down? Did you know they have lifetime warranties?

So, that said, the old wiring is a bit of a disaster. The good news is that a fire never started and lightning never got to this box. The open question is why neither of those happened.

Post back when you've found the other end of the lamp cord and you're ready to replace it.
 
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Old 11-03-13, 05:20 PM
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Thanks!
...you need to determine where that lamp cord is connected. That's going to need to be replaced...
The double white wire is lamp cord and needs to be replaced.
What does this entail and on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most difficult, how would you rate this as a DIY project?

Can you post a picture of the wiring at the switch? So far it looks like you need to start from scratch to install a fan.
If you mean the light switch on the wall, there are 2 within several feet of one another on the same wall immediately to the right as you walk in the room. I'm not sure, if either wall switch was controlling the fan...Would pics help determine?

The direct mounting to framing plus that iconic hook for the fan to hang from -- I've got $5 that says the old fan is one of Hunter's classics.
OK...Pay up...LOL...It's actually the Emerson cf529w-2. A quick search found the following:
Emerson Casablanca Classic Ceiling Fan Cat. No. CF529W-2 - YouTube
Emerson Casablanca Classic Ceiling Fan Cat. No CF529W-2

...why are you taking it down?
Other than it being old, inefficient & IMHO ugly...
the old wiring is a bit of a disaster.
 
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Old 11-03-13, 05:50 PM
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If you mean the light switch on the wall, there are 2 within several feet of one another on the same wall immediately to the right as you walk in the room. I'm not sure, if either wall switch was controlling the fan...Would pics help determine?
We need to know which controlled the fan but for now pictures of the wiring in both. What we need to see is if either has the lamp cord terminating in it. There is more we need to know but lts start with this.
 
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Old 11-03-13, 06:00 PM
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Luckily for the OP there is an attic crawlspace above so they do have access to pull a new cable. this will also help when they install the box also.

@ Op, even tho you are installing a ceiling light fixture, the code would require a fan rated box.
 
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Old 11-03-13, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Nashkat1
The direct mounting to framing plus that iconic hook for the fan to hang from -- I've got $5 that says the old fan is one of Hunter's classics.
OK...Pay up...LOL...It's actually the Emerson cf529w-2. A quick search found the following:
Emerson Casablanca Classic Ceiling Fan Cat. No. CF529W-2 - YouTube
Emerson Casablanca Classic Ceiling Fan Cat. No CF529W-2
OK. I'm a bit embarrassed, but I clearly owe you. And it's a small price to pay for an introduction to vintageceilingfans.com. Thank you for that - I'll be back there.

Join me?

I see now that I snookered myself and spoke in haste. I had a funny feeling about the vent pattern in the motor housing to begin with. Looking back, I see that I should have noticed the pill-box canopy and the double hook - Hunter uses a single hook, or used to. Ah, well. Lesson well learned.

That said, what you have is a classic-style fan from the only other company that can hold a candle to Hunter. Emerson claims to have made the world's first ceiling fan. They didn't. Hunter had been in business for 10 years when Emerson started up. What the Emerson company did do was make the world's first alternating-current induction style fan motor, and the first fans to use those. They still make some of the best electric motors on the market. Hunter started with water-powered fans, and brought out it's first electric fan one year after Emerson's. I suspect they were inspired by Emerson's example. Regardless, it's been a fun rivalry that's led to innovation and quality at both companies.

Back to your fan. It's not a real classic but it sure looks like one. If it were in my house it would be getting a fairly prominent location and ongoing TLC.

the old HEAVY ceiling fan
Heavy is good in a ceiling fan. If a ceiling fan isn't heavy, suspect cheap quality. From the site you linked to: "These ceiling fans are definitely a classic and will out last the junk of today."

Other than it being old,
Old? 30-odd years is just reaching maturity for a well-made ceiling fan. A truly old ceiling fan would be one from before WWII at the latest. Middle-aged might get you to 1960 or '65. Seriously. The classic fans from the classic companies were made to last a lifetime. With a bit of care, that's just what most of them are still doing.

inefficient
Why? It's a four blade fan. In the same diameter, a four-blade fan is almost always more efficient than a five-blade fan. It can move more air with less energy because it's only spinning four blades.

& IMHO ugly...
Ah, OK. I hear you. You just don't like the way it looks. Reason enough. But since you want it gone, you might do yourself a favor by listing it on Craigslist or eBay. If it's in good condition you might get enough for it to cover the cost of its replacement, or a bit more.

BTW, does your fan have the antique brass faceplate and blade irons? Just curious.

if anyone has suggestions on 52" energy star rated ceiling fans, I'm all ears.
Why 52"? Starting with blade size isn't usually the best way to wind up with the best fan for the space. I suggest you start with room size and work your way through the fan selector tools at Hunter and Casablanca. ENERGY STAR, if you really want that, is one of the choices at each of those sites.
 
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Old 11-03-13, 08:25 PM
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What does this entail and on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most difficult, how would you rate this as a DIY project?
Impossible to answer without knowing both your skill level and more about what you currently have there. Even the most experienced folks run into surprises every day.

If you mean the light switch on the wall, there are 2 within several feet of one another on the same wall immediately to the right as you walk in the room. I'm not sure, if either wall switch was controlling the fan...
As has already been suggested, kill the power, pull both switches, and look for that lamp cord.

Would pics help determine?
Maybe, but probably not as much as your clear observations. In addition, by making and reporting your observations, you'll be gaining insight you'll need for finishing the project.
 
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Old 11-03-13, 11:51 PM
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We need to know which controlled the fan but for now pictures of the wiring in both. What we need to see is if either has the lamp cord terminating in it. There is more we need to know but lts start with this.
Thanks!
Pictures of the wiring in both light switches on the wall are forthcoming.

OK. I'm a bit embarrassed, but I clearly owe you. And it's a small price to pay for an introduction to vintageceilingfans.com. Thank you for that - I'll be back there.

Join me?
My pleasure!...SALUTE!
But, It's on me...The guidance here so far has been well worth the "five-spot".

inefficient
Why? It's a four blade fan. In the same diameter, a four-blade fan is almost always more efficient than a five-blade fan. It can move more air with less energy because it's only spinning four blades
I was thinking "Energy Star Certified".

you might do yourself a favor by listing it on Craigslist or eBay. If it's in good condition you might get enough for it to cover the cost of its replacement, or a bit more.
Seriously? how much do you think one in "fair/good" condition would go for?

BTW, does your fan have the antique brass faceplate and blade irons? Just curious.
It looks just like the one on vintageceilingfans, why do you ask?

Why 52"?
I first went to Ceiling Fan Basics : ENERGY STAR

Impossible to answer without knowing both your skill level and more about what you currently have there. Even the most experienced folks run into surprises every day.
Fair enough!

Maybe, but probably not as much as your clear observations. In addition, by making and reporting your observations, you'll be gaining insight you'll need for finishing the project.
Very helpful, thanks!
 
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Old 11-04-13, 04:46 AM
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I was thinking "Energy Star Certified".
And I'm thinking a ceiling fan motor uses so little energy to start with very little can be saved.
 
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Old 11-04-13, 08:20 AM
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Ein Prosit!

Originally Posted by Nashkat1
Why? It's a four blade fan. In the same diameter, a four-blade fan is almost always more efficient than a five-blade fan. It can move more air with less energy because it's only spinning four blades.
I was thinking "Energy Star Certified".
The ENERGY STARŪ certification means more (to the extent that it means anything) with a high-draw appliance like an A/C compressor or a water heater. As Ray commented,
Originally Posted by ray2047
I'm thinking a ceiling fan motor uses so little energy to start with very little can be saved.
The fans in our house turn on low speed 24/7/365. They get stopped for 15 minutes each in the Spring and Fall for a good cleaning and to reverse air flow. The savings in the electric bill are real, not to mention the added comfort.

Originally Posted by Nashkat1
you might do yourself a favor by listing it on Craigslist or eBay. If it's in good condition you might get enough for it to cover the cost of its replacement, or a bit more.
Seriously? how much do you think one in "fair/good" condition would go for?
No idea. Every sale is an agreement between a willing seller and a willing buyer. But any return is a plus and the fan can find a nice new home rather than going to the scrap yard.

Originally Posted by Nashkat1
BTW, does your fan have the antique brass faceplate and blade irons? Just curious.
It looks just like the one on vintageceilingfans, why do you ask?
Just because I couldn't see them in your photos. Those are arguably the most attractive features off this fan, IMO.

Originally Posted by Nashkat1
Why 52"?
I first went to Ceiling Fan Basics : ENERGY STAR
OK, then you started with room size, which is the best criterion. At the two fan selector links I gave you, though, I'll suggest you click on several of the blade choices instead of room size first. You'll get more choices that way. 52" isn't as common as some other sizes. Depending on where in the 225-400 ft.[SUP]2[/SUP] range your room falls, a fan blade size anywhere from 48" to 54" could work well. Keep your eye peeled for 4-blade fans.

Note that if you click on ENERGY STARŪ your choices shrink dramatically.
 
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Old 11-06-13, 11:48 AM
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As has already been suggested, kill the power, pull both switches, and look for that lamp cord.
OK...
I thought it'd come from the one of the first 2 switches (5 total in room) but after removing them both, I did not believe I saw the lamp cord....So I kept going...until I got to #5, of course; where there's no box and it looks like there are 2 lamp cords, 1 coming from the top & one from the bottom.

MB Light Switch #1


MB Light Switch #2


MB Light Switch #3


MB Light Switch #4


MB Light Switch #5
 
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Old 11-06-13, 12:06 PM
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Looks like your project got a whole lot larger than you planned. We can help you through this if you need guidance.
 
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Old 11-06-13, 12:31 PM
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Since there's no lamp cord in any of the first four switch locations, you can remount those.

It looks like someone may have tapped the power for the fan off a receptacle. When you killed the power to that switch, what else went off?
 
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Old 11-06-13, 12:36 PM
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Looks like your project got a whole lot larger than you planned. We can help you through this if you need guidance.
Thanks!

Yes, please! In that case, I might as well fill you in on what background info I have. Before I bought the house, I had a home inspection and I have had several licensed electricians come in to take a look at his concerns i.e.

1) Main panel is "225 Amp Zinsco with 250MCM Copper Entrance Cables". Looks original but in good condition.

2) "GE" panel outside for the pool equipment; it's bottom is all rusted out.

There's also a newer smaller "Bryant" panel (did not recommend replacing) directly behind the kitchen wall for all of it's stuff. I did receive estimates on replacing the 2 panels (Zinsco & GE ) That said, I don't know what I don't know about shopping for new panels.

Also, many of the interior outlets & light switches appear to be fairly new however many of the exterior flood lights, outlets & light switches are old & probably need to be upgraded. And if someone can explain why the radio in the built-in radio/intercom turns on every once in a while...on it's own, that'd be cool! And no...The house is not haunted. At least I don't think!

Others have suggested, I really need to get the panels addressed first, then go through and fix all of these nice little treasures that the previous home owner left. All that said, any helpful thoughts & guidance on what to attack first as well as shopping for new panels is be greatly appreciated.
 
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Old 11-06-13, 12:45 PM
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Since there's no lamp cord in any of the first four switch locations, you can remount those.

It looks like someone may have tapped the power for the fan off a receptacle. When you killed the power to that switch, what else went off?
Thanks!
I killed the main because I couldn't figure out which breakers to kill individually.
 
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Old 11-06-13, 01:16 PM
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I killed the main because I couldn't figure out which breakers to kill individually.
Oops! Time to figure out the circuits.
 
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Old 11-08-13, 11:00 AM
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Thanks!
Thoughts on replacing the Zinsco & GE panels before moving forward?
Also, where can I get a replacement screw for one of the fan blades?
 
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Old 11-08-13, 04:43 PM
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Did you finish the wiring for the ceiling fan? A replacement screw for a blade iron-to-blade connection (is that the one you need?) may be available in the lighting and fan section at your local home improvement center or well-stocked hardware store.

Would you consider starting a new thread for your panel questions? It's a very different topic.
 
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Old 11-09-13, 01:19 AM
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Thanks!

Since there's no lamp cord in any of the first four switch locations, you can remount those.
Done.

Did you finish the wiring for the ceiling fan?
Not yet, others have suggested, I really need to get the panels addressed first so I was waiting on thoughts & guidance here on whether or not I should replace the panel before moving forward.

A replacement screw for a blade iron-to-blade connection (is that the one you need?) may be available in the lighting and fan section at your local home improvement center or well-stocked hardware store.
Each fan blade has 3 small screws that connect it to their brackets...I'm missing one of these screws.

Would you consider starting a new thread for your panel questions?
Of course, but should I replace the panel before moving forward wiring the ceiling fan?
 
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