Fixtures suitable for 60c wire

Closed Thread

  #1  
Old 11-22-13, 05:54 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 592
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Fixtures suitable for 60c wire

Every fixture in the big box stores and a few local lighting shops says rated for 90c wire only. Only a slight few say rated for 75c wire. NONE say suitable for 60c wire.

I have 60c wire.

Do you know of any place I can find fixtures?

Short of rewiring, I take it I am out of luck if I want to stay within compliancy.
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 11-22-13, 07:12 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Received 13 Votes on 11 Posts
Chandeliers and fixtures that can't use an incandescent bulb such as LED are the most probable. If there is an accessible unfinished attic above you can pull the cable up into the attic and use a junction box to splice on a piece of 90 cable.
 
  #3  
Old 11-23-13, 11:15 AM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,996
Received 39 Votes on 34 Posts
Typically a non-flush mount fixture does not have the same requirement as a flush mount fixture.
 
  #4  
Old 11-23-13, 11:15 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 592
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I take it using CFL's instead is not a suitable workaround?

I think it would be next to impossible to find any new fixutre that doesnt have these UL restrictions... even the ones with hanging pendant type bulbs say it.

I wonder, do ceiling fans have this requirement too?
 
  #5  
Old 12-03-13, 05:49 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 592
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Still wondering about this one.... For the life of me I cannot find any fixture in any store that doesnt say that 75 or 90 is required. (flush mount or non flush mount no difference in the warning!)

I have even found some in operation in my house!!! What should I do here? I realize rewiring is the fix, but is using CF's acceptable....

Theres some can lights that say this in my basement. The thing is, the connections are made in the standard recessed box away from the can??

Is this heat caused by these fixtures being transfered thru the wiring or is it about proximity to the bulb?? Im confused, esp. since I cant be the only one having a problem finding light fixtures for 60c wire....
 
  #6  
Old 12-03-13, 06:11 PM
Justin Smith's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cressona, Pa, USA
Posts: 2,546
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I'd install a pendant or other hanging fixture and forget about it.
 
  #7  
Old 12-03-13, 07:00 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 592
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
The one in question the previous owner of my house put in, it looks to be newish within the last 2 years. Its a standard globe style flush mount installed in the hallway between the bedrooms.

I really hate to hassle with removing it as its quite nice but I dont want a safety concern either. Im currently running 3 - 10w CFL in the fixture that is rated for 3x60.

If I replace it the best I can do since its a standard 8 ft. ceiling is a semi-flush but I will bet they will have the warning stickers on the boxes too.

What would you do in this case?
Are cfl's a suitable work around?
 
  #8  
Old 12-03-13, 07:33 PM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,996
Received 39 Votes on 34 Posts
While CFL's do not generate the same heat as incandescent bulbs, the use of the fixture would still be a technical violation of the code. The electric code requires the instructions to be followed.
 
  #9  
Old 12-03-13, 07:37 PM
Justin Smith's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cressona, Pa, USA
Posts: 2,546
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
If you are really stuck on the fixture, take some LED bulbs and epoxy them in so nobody puts incandescents back in. It won't meet code, but won't be a real safety hazard either.
 
  #10  
Old 12-03-13, 07:43 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 592
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Justin Smith

If you are really stuck on the fixture, take some LED bulbs and epoxy them in so nobody puts incandescents back in. It won't meet code, but won't be a real safety hazard either.

pcboss


While CFL's do not generate the same heat as incandescent bulbs, the use of the fixture would still be a technical violation of the code. The electric code requires the instructions to be followed.
So UL and NEC aside, your both suggesting that CFL's and LED's run cooler and are an adaquete workaround??

What do electricians do when they are called out to replace a few light fixtures and they run into this situation...?? (Convince the homeowner they need to have a new box installed, tear up drywall and reroute some THHN from the old box?) So much for the homeowner saving a few bucks and getting a fixture at the big box store.....
 
  #11  
Old 12-04-13, 02:01 AM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
I make sure the existing wiring is in good condition and install the fixture. If the existing wiring isn't in good condition, then I correct that first. If I can't restore the existing wiring to good working condition without replacing it, thr owner gets a nice blank plate, a fixture in a box and a request for a meeting.

So UL and NEC aside,...
The U.L. doesn't enter into doing this work. The locally adopted codes, which are often based on the NEC, do. That said, electrical codes have to be interpreted in their entirety, not piecemeal. Among it's many provisions, the NEC allows knob-and-tube wiring to continue in service. I have installed a fair number of fixtures on K&T, including antiques, restored antiques, and modern fixtures including reproductions of antique designs, and I continue to do so.

In case you're wondering, no, I haven't hidden this work from my inspectors. In fact, I've always given them a guided tour of it.

What matters is that the work be done in a manner that will contain a fire, prevent a shock, etc.

What do electricians do when they are called out to replace a few light fixtures and they run into this situation...?? (Convince the homeowner they need to have a new box installed, tear up drywall and reroute some THHN from the old box?)
I am not aware of any provision in the NEC or any other electrical code that requires that existing wiring be replaced, unless it fails to meet the intent of the sections on wiring methods. One prime example is that aluminum wiring from the '60s is being kept in service.

On the rare occasion when wiring does need to be replaced, it has to be done in its entirety -- overcurrent protection device to load.
 
  #12  
Old 12-04-13, 05:24 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 592
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
From what I am reading online, the only real workaround here is to add a new box and run new 90c wire from the old box.

Nashkat, your ok then with ignoring the warning label and installing it anyhow if the wiring is in good condition? I bet theres lots of electricians wouldnt want that liability issue.

I read that the new fixtures with the warning label will cook 60c wire in short order (overwattage or not) and thats what has me freaked out. THe other thing that freaks me out is that the ceiling boxes in my old house are the homeruns for the outlets in the room... so I bet that doesnt help the heat issue.
 
  #13  
Old 12-04-13, 07:56 PM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
I bet theres lots of electricians wouldnt want that liability issue.
What liability issue?
Originally Posted by Nashkat1
electrical codes have to be interpreted in their entirety, not piecemeal. Among it's many provisions, the NEC allows knob-and-tube wiring to continue in service. I have installed a fair number of fixtures on K&T, including antiques, restored antiques, and modern fixtures including reproductions of antique designs, and I continue to do so.
Thank you for your judgement.

Here are two bets in return:
  1. I bet you don't know many electricians.
  2. I bet you either don't read the posts in this this thread you started, or you're choosing to not believe what is written:
    Originally Posted by Nashkat1
    I haven't hidden this work from my inspectors. In fact, I've always given them a guided tour of it.
To add to what I said earlier, not only have I never failed an inspection based on my work, the work of my crew or the work of my company, I've gotten a couple of positive comments on some of the things I've done with existing wiring. I've also, often, consulted with my inspector before starting some of the repairs, and arrived at an agreed process.

Please re-read post #11.

Hmm... A fresh example:
From what I am reading online, the only real workaround here is to add a new box and run new 90c wire from the old box.
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity."
Abraham Lincoln (source: the Internet)


Here's one you can trust:
Originally Posted by Nashkat1
On the rare occasion when wiring does need to be replaced, it has to be done in its entirety -- overcurrent protection device to load.
That is not "new box to old box."

Zmike, if you're going to pick and choose which parts of your own thread to believe and, in addition, mix in information -- without attribution or verification -- from other sources, then there is no honest dialogue. The result, whatever it is, will not meet your need for information, will not meet that need for other readers browsing through, and will not repay the time and effort it takes members to compose and post replies to your questions.

Which do you prefer to have -- an honest dialogue designed to convey useful information or a game of typed jiu-jitsu? It's your choice.
 
  #14  
Old 12-05-13, 06:34 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 592
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I bet you either don't read the posts in this this thread you started, or you're choosing to not believe what is written
I read it just fine, if you deem the old wiring is in satisfactory shape, then you ignore the warning on the fixture and install it anyhow....

Do you put the model number of the fixture you just installed on the receipt with you businesses name on it?

The manufacture is covering their asses by putting the "Only use 90c wire, consult a qualified electrician" warning on there. They are passing the buck to you the electrician, I just figured you had a standard way to cover your own.

Please close this thread...
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 12-05-13 at 07:19 AM. Reason: Remove unnecessary comment.
  #15  
Old 12-05-13, 07:22 AM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Please close this thread...
Done. It remains available for viewing.
 
  #16  
Old 12-05-13, 08:19 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Received 13 Votes on 11 Posts
If anyone feels they have more to add that is important please PM me.

Ray
 
  #17  
Old 12-05-13, 09:40 AM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
If anyone feels they have more to add that is important please PM me.
Or me, or any other moderator.

Thanks, Ray. I meant to add that.
 
Closed Thread

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: