Questions on recessed lighting


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Old 12-19-13, 01:01 PM
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Lightbulb Questions on recessed lighting

Hi - I'm looking to add recessed lighting into my home. I've been to all of the big box stores, looked around online and I'm still confused as to exactly what I need.
I do know that I want to do LED, so I want to be sure I start out with the correct items.

I'm pretty sure I want to go 6". I know that I will need to have approximately 8-10 fixtures in my living room. This is based on some formulas I found online stating that I want around 20 lumens per sqft. My living room is 380 sqft. From what I've seen, most LED bulbs put out around 700-800 lumen.

What I don't know is... what do I actually need? I've seen LED retrofit kits. These appear to also require a can to be installed into. I know I need remodel type cans and they will be covered with insulation.

Any guidance to what I should be looking for would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 
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Old 12-19-13, 03:29 PM
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What I don't know is... what do I actually need? I've seen LED retrofit kits. These appear to also require a can to be installed into. I know I need remodel type cans and they will be covered with insulation.
I'm a little bit confused about this part of your post. When you say that your recessed fixtures will be covered by insulation, that implies that you will be installing them in the "floor" of your attic. If so, they will need to be both AT (air tight) and IC (insulation compatible), but you aren't limited to remodel housings.

If you have an accessible attic to work in to install your fixtures, it's almost always easier and less expensive to use new construction housings. You'll also have a larger selection of trims.

I do know that I want to do LED, so I want to be sure I start out with the correct items.
You can install any bulb you like, that draws up to the maximum wattage rating of the fixture, in most recessed fixtures.

Are you planning to add a new circuit to feed these lights?

Here's a page that might give you some additional info: Before You Buy Recessed Lights: Before You Buy Recessed Lights.
 
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Old 12-20-13, 07:31 AM
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Welcome from a fellow Minnesotan!

If you have an accessible attic to work in to install your fixtures, it's almost always easier and less expensive to use new construction housings. You'll also have a larger selection of trims.
I will have to disagree with Nashkat on this one. Anytime I can stay out of an attic the better! Installing some 6" remodel cans will be easier and will offer you the same amount of choices of trim/lamp selections. They also come in IC (insulation contact) and AT (air tight) rated.

I would suggest using Halo H750RICAT cans or similar. You can then choose which lamps you want and won't be "stuck" with a fixed type. I have used both the "retrofit" trims and separate lamps and both work well. Your 8-10 fixtures sound about right for the 20 lumens per foot but I would suggest installing a dimmer (Rated for the lamps you use) so you can set the light level to what you like.

Lastly, if you have a 2nd floor above the room, you will have to make quite a few holes in the sheetrock that will need to be repaired.
 
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Old 12-20-13, 01:27 PM
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The new construction fixtures are less that the remodel fixtures, but not by much. You'll probably spend more for the bulbs than for the fixtures.

If the selection of trims is as good for remodel cans is as it is for new construction frames, that's all to the good.

I'm not fond of attic crawls either, but it's hard to beat the access and ease of wire pulling you get that way.
 
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Old 12-20-13, 02:47 PM
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Thank you both for your input!

I do plan on crawling in the attic for this project. I've already done enough work up there putting in ceiling fan mounts and running wire and boxes for other parts of the house. I will probably wait until spring time though as the temps up there this time of year and not very fun to work in

I have put in Lutron Maestro digital CL dimmers for other areas of the house and I do plan on using those for these lights also. As far as a new circuit, I am not 100% sure on that one yet. Odds are I will be running another circuit up which equals another AFCI breaker. Sigh.

Thanks again and Happy Holidays!

Gary
 
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Old 12-20-13, 04:29 PM
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I do plan on crawling in the attic for this project.
Then you can choose to install new construction fixtures. Besides the lower cost, I prefer to use those where I can because they're both sturdier and more sturdily mounted. Plus, I find that the J-boxes on those are easier to get to - I don't like having to pull the fixture out to get to one, and dealing with the insulation that inevitably comes down when you do that.

As far as a new circuit, I am not 100% sure on that one yet. Odds are I will be running another circuit up which equals another AFCI breaker.
Yep. Pricey, aren't they?

When you're calculating whether you actually need to add a circuit, remember that you have to use the maximum rated wattage of the fixtures. If you buy ones that are rated for 60W lamps, you're adding 480W to 600W of load as far as the code is concerned. It isn't based on the lamps you're installing because the writers assumed, logically, that someone could change those at any time.

Enjoy!
 
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Old 12-30-13, 02:40 PM
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Is there a good place/person on these forums to ask for lighting design advice? I keep reading more and more on recessed lights and I am just giving myself a big headache.

I'm willing to attach a floor plan I made of the space I'm trying to light. I can also share pictures.

I'm needing to figure out if recessed is the best way to go, or if it's just a "fad" and another light source would be better.

Also, I'm seeing all kinds of equations as to how many fixtures I need (based on SqFt, ceiling height, lumen rating, beam spread, etc.), what type of bulb to use, how far apart to space them from one another and from the wall, etc. etc.

I tend to overthink things way too much but I'd like to get it right from the start.

Thanks
 
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Old 12-30-13, 04:55 PM
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Can lights have been the "Fad" for about 30+ years and are still going strong to the day with the introduction of LEDs. IMO - a lighting designer will tend to go with smaller cans (4-5") which I have never understood. 6" cans give you more light, more lamp options, more trim options, for less cost. The only time I suggest smaller cans is when you are highlighting a certain area.

I have installed thousands of cans and never have people been disappointed with the results. I do tend to load up a ceiling with cans because you can bring the light down with dimmers if it is too much. It is not very easy to go the other way.

Post your floor plan and we'll be happy to give suggestions.
 
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Old 12-31-13, 12:53 PM
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Thanks for the offer! I do really appreciate it.

I'm attaching a few pics and my rough draft of a floor plan. Please don't mind the pics... I'm not living in the house yet and I have a long ways to go until it looks the way I want, so I apologize for the mess!

Here are my main questions... concerns. Typical of anyone wanting to do cans I guess.

1) What size.. ? I'm thinking 6" for the reasons listed below. As of right now, I don't have any features or art work that I plan on highlighting, so all of this will be for general lighting.

2) How many? I've seen calculations using lumens, watts, SqFt, ceiling height, light spread, etc. I don't need perfection, but I'd like to make sure that I have good, even lighting in the room w/out any obvious hot or dark spots. I will be using digital dimmers.

3) What type of bulb? I would like to go LED. Do I need to use retrofit LED kits? If so, why? Can't I use a standard trim and put in one of those Cree LED bulbs? I actually have some of those in my basement and don't know if I really care for the light spread. It seems to go vertical a lot more than it goes horizontal, so they don't light my unfinished basement as well as the CFL's. The ceiling and walls are very dark around where the LED's are being used. The CFL's seem to spread out the light a lot better.

4) What does the layout need to be? I've read 3' from the wall and use 4 feet apart because my ceiling is 8' high.. .I've also read put them 6' apart if using 6" cans.

The room is 13x30. Ceiling is 8'. The floorplan is to scale. At least as close as I could get it. Each cell represents 1 sqft.

I'm probably over analyzing things but I'd like to get it right as close as I can from the start. I don't know enough about lighting to know what type of bulb is going to give me what effect and how much light it will provide to me all the way to the ground if the ceiling is 8' high, etc.

One of my main concerns are the 2 decorative molding pieces that go across on both ends of the room. They are about 3 feet from the walls and about 6" deep. I am worried that if I place cans on the inner side of them that light won't spread out well enough to cover the wall.

Here is what I'd like my final result to be. This will help interpret my floor plan as well:

A) Current hanging light fixture currently in place will be replaced with a more modern light. This will be used to light an informal table below it. (I have a formal dining room with a formal table) - This is on a circuit that I won't be touching. This light is marked on the floor plan with a Y.

B) Add a new circuit for recessed lights and a ceiling fan. The ceiling fan placement is marked on my floor plan with the X. The fan will have a light, but it's a 10watt LED light that does not put out much light. It's main purpose is for circulating air (heat from the fireplace) and for aesthetics.

C) Add in recessed lighting. Same circuit as the ceiling fan. Most likely 2 switches. I willl need to determine the different zones. I'm thinking front row (Closest to TV/Fireplace) and back row.
This circuit will need to be under 1440 watts max rated and will have an AFCI breaker. I have put my own O's where I was thinking I would put the cans. This is by no means scientific and I don't know how even the lighting would be. I also don't know how the molding will affect the light output if there are no cans between the wall and the molding.

Sorry for being so long winded. I really do appreciate anyone taking the time to help me out with this!

Gary
 
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Old 01-02-14, 09:14 AM
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Hey Gary! Sorry for the late reply, New Years stuff and all.

You have a few things going on here and you plan looks pretty good but I have some suggestions:

I would go with 6" cans for the reasons I outlined earlier. 4" remodel cans are not available in IC rated at the big box stores or electrical suppliers. (I am in your location so I have looked )

Your framing may change where you lay out the cans depending if it is framed 16" or 24" on center.

I would try to split up the room into "zones". For example, I would not put a can over where your table will be if you are planning to have a hanging fixture there. I would split the cans, fan and fan light on separate switches (fan could be one with a remote). I would also put some cans on the other side of the header over the island.

Last thought I had was for the 3' space on each end. I was thinking of putting 3 cans on each end (5 or 6" IC rated) as a kind of accent lights. Like when you are watching TV and you don't want the room lit up.

I am going to try to make a plan but it will take me a little bit so hang tight.
 
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Old 01-03-14, 09:04 AM
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Here is a super high quality plan of how I would wire it:

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Old 01-03-14, 10:32 AM
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Thank you for the info! That is very helpful. I did still have one question remaining what type of bulbs can be used? Does it depend on the brand/type of can itself? I was looking at the Lithonia 6" cans at Menards, but don't know if those are a decent brand or not?

3) What type of bulb? I would like to go LED. Do I need to use retrofit LED kits? If so, why? Can't I use a standard trim and put in one of those Cree LED bulbs? I actually have some of those in my basement and don't know if I really care for the light spread. It seems to go vertical a lot more than it goes horizontal, so they don't light my unfinished basement as well as the CFL's. The ceiling and walls are very dark around where the LED's are being used. The CFL's seem to spread out the light a lot better.

I think my next question I need to figure out is how many circuits I will need and if my dimmers can handle it. I believe my dimmers will take up to 400 watts each. I'm going to have 3 of them and some of the fins will need to be removed. This should be OK. I think my biggest limitation is going to be my max circuit load. I may need to have 2 circuits and hook into an existing box which doesn't have much on it which shouldn't be a big deal. It's just not fun working with all of those wires in a 4 gang box

Thanks again!
 
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Old 01-03-14, 04:00 PM
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I have always liked the cans at Home Depot, Halo, and Commercial Electric. I always shied away from the cans from Menard's because they were junk when they carried Thomas lighting. I have not used the Lithonia ones, but Lithonia is a good brand in general.

You certainly can use LED lamps and they do not need to be the retrofit kits, although I have and they are nice. These are made for cans so I believe they design them to throw the light down. One thing to remember is that LED's are directional and do not spread the light like an incandescent or CFL. Again, I like the lamps (CFL and LED) at Big Orange better then Menard's. Not bashing Menard's, just my personal preference for these items. I do buy all my other electrical and construction materials at Menard's so everybody wins. I just bought some the Cree lamps for out light over our table and you can tell that the light goes out horizontal which works for my fixture.

The dimmers are mostly rated for 600 watts. The dimmer will need to be listed/designed for the lamps you are looking to dim. Remember that is true watts, not wattage replacement. A Cree LED lamp is about 10 watts.

Circuit load will be based on the max wattage that can be installed in the can. Most cases I figure about 65 watts per can. Especially with the incandescence ban going into effect.
 
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Old 01-05-14, 08:23 AM
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Thanks again!

I do have one last question before I start running wires and drilling holes all over.

I went with the Lithonia LX7 from Menards. Mostly because I get 24% back in rebate with their current program and Big Card.

My question relates to maximum wattage per circuit. You had mentioned 65 below, but the cans state that they can take up to 150W Par 38. I also purchased an LED retrofit kit, which is 16.5W. Does this mean that I need to calculate my max circuit load using 150W?? That would limit me to about 9 cans per circuit using the 80% rule. Yikes!
 
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Old 01-05-14, 08:49 AM
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Yes, technically you should base it on the largest lamp that you can install. I use 65 watts because that is pretty much the workhorse of can lamps and are used 99.9% of the time. Also, with the ban on incandescent going into effect, 150 watt lamps will be a thing of the past.

Let me know how the cans work out.
 
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Old 01-05-14, 09:20 PM
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My question relates to maximum wattage per circuit. You had mentioned 65 below, but the cans state that they can take up to 150W Par 38. I also purchased an LED retrofit kit, which is 16.5W. Does this mean that I need to calculate my max circuit load using 150W?? That would limit me to about 9 cans per circuit using the 80% rule. Yikes!
Yes, you need to calculate the load on each circuit based on the maximum wattage rating of each fixture because anyone, at any time, can change the bulbs - and on a continuous load. That, as you say, brings you to the 80% rule.

80% of the 1800W available on a 15A, 14AWG circuit is 1440W. That's enough for 9.6 150W fixtures. As you say, that puts you at a maximum of 9 fixtures per 15A circuit.

80% of the 2400W available on a 20W, 12AWG circuit is 1920W, which is enough for 12.8 150W fixtures. As a practical matter, that's 12 fixtures per circuit.

The 17 fixtures shown in post #11 will require two circuits either way. I would go with the 20A circuits, but that's a matter of preference.

Or you can use fixtures rated at no more than 65W each.

Originally Posted by Tolyn Ironhand
with the ban on incandescent going into effect, 150 watt lamps will be a thing of the past.
I'll respectfully differ with Tolyn on this point. There is no ban on incandescent lamps. There are new efficiency standards. Any lamp that meets the new standards may be sold and installed without violating the provisions of the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007.
 
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Old 01-06-14, 09:06 AM
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Great info, thank you very much to the both of you!

To save on panel space and additional AFCI breakers, I will go with a 20A new circuit for the majority of the lights. I have a couple other 15A circuits with J boxes in the attic for other bedrooms with very low loads, so I can hook into those as well for the additional cans.

I will definitely let you know how it goes and what the final results are. I don't really feel like crawling around in the attic in this -18 degree weather, but the temps this weekend are looking a bit more promising.
 
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Old 01-06-14, 07:57 PM
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That plan sounds like it should work. I'm curious, though - why not use fixtures rated for a maximum of 65W? You can wire up to 22 of those on a 15A circuit after applying the 80% rule. And, the last time I looked, 14AWG wiring, 15A AFCI breakers and 65W fixtures were less expensive than 12AWG wiring, 20A AFCI breakers and 150W fixtures.

Just asking.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 12:39 PM
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Valid questions and yes it would most likely be cheaper. To be honest it's a combination of being lazy and current circumstances. I'm finishing up re-wiring the whole house and I happen to have a bunch of 12/2 left, so I won't need to purchase any extra wire (Hopefully). The 15 and 20 AFCI's are actually the same price, so that's good. As far as finding the 65W max fixtures, that comes down to being lazy really. I got a decent deal on the ones that I picked up so I'll just have to work with what I have.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 01:43 PM
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Hey, whatever works for you. If I wanted to be lazy about this, I'd run everything on one circuit. That cuts out having to pull wire through the attic to other boxes, opening those boxes by droppong the fixture, making the splices and re-mounting the fixtures.

Not to mention -- do you have a complete, unswitched circuit in each of those boxes? Id so, how are you planning to wire and install the controls for the lights in this room that are fed from other circuits?

That seems to me like a lot more figuring and work that could be avoided. But maybe I'm not seeing something, or not seeing it clearly.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 02:12 PM
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I should probably give it a little more thought. With the weather being so cold I don't plan on making any holes or crawling around in the attic until this weekend anyways.

I do have 3 boxes in the attic, each are 15A on their own unswitched circuit.

Box A: Bathroom light fixture + (Future attic exhaust fans)
Box B: Guest BR Ceiling Fan (175w) + Master BR Ceiling Fan (175w) + 5 Smoke/Co Detectors
Box C: Dining Rm light (To be determined, but assuming ~500Wmax) + Outside light (LED 15w) + Entry light (LED 16.5w) + Hallway light (LED 16.5w) These LED fixtures are ones with the LED's built in, so there is no changing out the lamp.

All 3 J boxes are close to each other in the attic. Besides the new 20A circuit that I was going to feed for the new lights (Not far, maybe 15' of wire total from panel to switches) I was going to tap into box B which has the least amount of load. I already have the holes drilled in the attic going down the same cavity as the switches because I had to run a wire down into the furnace area of the basement for a smoke/co detector.

As far as wiring the switches, I have 3 digital dimmers. 2 would be wired from the new 20A circuit and the 3rd from the existing.

I am still pretty green with this, so if I am creating more work for myself than necessarily I am definitely all ears for better suggestions.

After writing that out and thinking that I am also wanting to add some cans in the dining room (Box C), I would be better off overall using 65/75w max cans. That way I could also add more than the 5 that I could currently in the dining room.

If you have any suggestions to any specific ones, I'm all ears!

Thanks!
 
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Old 01-07-14, 02:22 PM
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I believe I found what I need at big orange. Halo 6 in' New construction... 75w max. Even cheaper than the ones that I currently purchased!

It sure is nice to have a HD, Menards and Lowes all literally w/in 5 miles of my house. Although my wallet thinks otherwise..

Looks like I'll be returning the ones I bought and picking these up.

So, I believe (As of right now at least) that I will run 1 new, 20A circuit for recessed in the living room. I can have a max of 25 of these cans, which is more than plenty. I can also add in my fan w/out a problem.

I can also add the 7 in my dining room without an issue.

Thank you for questioning me and making me re-think things. Sometimes I get something set in my mind and I need to remember to slow down and think through things.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 02:37 PM
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I can have a max of 25 of these cans, which is more than plenty. I can also add in my fan w/out a problem.
If my math is right, you can have up to 25 cans, or you can have up to 23 cans plus a 175W fan.

Sometimes I get something set in my mind and I need to remember to slow down and think through things.
And you're the only one who does that?
 
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Old 01-08-14, 07:21 AM
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Hi Guys - Question. Is the max load rule a code or best practice? I'm not asking related to my recessed lighting, but to some other lighting in my house.

My basement currently has 7 of the porcelain light fixtures with the pull chains. I just looked up the info and they have a max W of 250. This would put me at 1750w max load, which is higher than 1440w for a 15A circuit.

This circuit also happens to have a few other fixtures on it as well, putting me close to 2000w max load. :NO NO NO:

Does this mean that I need to remove those fixtures and put in ones with a lower max w rating? I've been looking for some others and they all seem to be around the 250w max. Some even are as high as 650! That would only mean that you could have 2 of them on a circuit.

I understand the rule and why it's there, but I'm asking to help determine if I need to change all of these out and find some fixtures with a max load of around 100w or so.

As always, thanks! I appreciate it!
 
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Old 01-08-14, 09:58 AM
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All codes are local. It is a requirement in the NEC, if your jurisdiction has adopted that.
 
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Old 01-08-14, 07:18 PM
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I'll respectfully differ with Tolyn on this point.
Ok, I'm not going to read the entire Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007, but I can give you a quick just of it. No, incandescent lamps are not entirely banned, however the do have to follow the new rules of the energy act. This means that a bulb needs to put out a certain amount of lumans per watts. This can mostly only be done with LED, CFL or halogen.

The code is that the circuit must be able to handle the load to be served. The max wattage rule is for calculating load. If you also look at the label you can only use the highest wattage with certain trim rings. As I said earlier, I would base the load calculation on 65, or 75, watts max per can. I am sure any inspector would be fine with this, as I am from your location, just like they were fine with the porcelains in your basement.

I would use remodel cans if I was doing this job. No attic crawling required, or at least, less.
 
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Old 02-14-14, 02:03 PM
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Hi Guys - I said I would post an update once I'm finished with this project. I'm about 95% completed. All of the cans are installed and powered up. I messed up the ceiling on a couple of them so I'm doing those repairs before I put the trim on those. Other than that, I think I'm all set.

Attached are a few pics. 15 in the main living room area. 3 switches. 1 switch does the 4 lights by the windows (2 on each side). next switch does the south side of the room (5 lights). The last one does the north side (6 lights). All controlled with Lutron CL digital dimmers. I currently went with Halogen bulbs, but will keep my eye open on LED as the prices come down.

Thanks again for all of your help and input!

I must say, I have a LOT more respect for those who do this type of work for a living. This was a lot more work than I thought. I've never had to be in so many uncomfortable positions in my life. Laying down across plywood with insulation all around and having hardly any head room to move was not fun. I'm glad it's over!

Gary

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Old 02-14-14, 02:58 PM
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Looking good. Thanks for letting us see the finished project.
 
 

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