ray...where is that in the code?

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Old 08-19-14, 07:39 AM
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ray...where is that in the code?

with cloth wires and no ground you need a light rated for 60 wiring with no receptacle and run a new dedicated 20 amp (grounded) circuit for a separate code compliant receptacle.
ray...where is that in the code?.................................THANKS IN ADVANCE
 
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Old 08-19-14, 08:31 AM
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Not in the code it is the temperature that type of wire was rated for. Before 1984 it was NM cable not NM-b and was rated for 60. Cloth wire predates 1984. See: Question about light fixture - 60 / 90 degree wiring
 
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Old 08-19-14, 08:33 AM
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Not Ray, but I can still help out.

Many light fixture manufactures state on the fixture, or in the directions, that the wires connected to it are to be rated 90 degrees. . Art 410.21

Bathroom receptacles are required to be a 20 amp circuit. Art 210 section III
 
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Old 08-19-14, 12:19 PM
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Tolyn Ironhand

Not Ray, but I can still help out.

Many light fixture manufactures state on the fixture, or in the directions, that the wires connected to it are to be rated 90 degrees. . Art 410.21

410.21 Temperature Limit of Conductors in Outlet
Boxes.
Luminaires shall be of such construction
or installed
so that the conductors in outlet boxes shall not be subjected
to temperatures greater than that for which the conductors
are rated.
410.21 MADE THE light fixture manufactures increase the amount of ,and the type of, insulation above their fixtures.

it also tells the installer he may not remove the insulation.

i can find nothing in the code to prohibit installing a new fixture that has 90 deg. wire in an old house.

all new wire is rated at 90 deg.........a better insulation

we still use the 60 deg. chart for all house wiring as far as i know.
that is .......the wire is rated at 60 deg...................this is CODE

i would THINK OF THIS AS A GENERAL DISCLAIMER

AS

no inspector has ever made a point of this to me

or turned down any of my jobs because of this.

imho.........................ymmv
 
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Old 08-19-14, 12:59 PM
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You missed the 2nd part:

"so that the conductors in outlet boxes shall not be subjected
to temperatures greater than that for which the conductors
are rated."

Not all fixtures have insulation, like the one Ray was commenting about in the other thread. If the light fixture requires 90 degree wire, it will say on it (something like): Branch circuit conductors suitable for at least 90 degrees.

Funny, We use the 90 degree column for all our derating if the conductor is rated for 90 degrees. The 60 degree column is the final max rating of a NM-b cable.
 
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Old 08-20-14, 06:03 AM
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Just curious, you guys sound like electricians.

When you encounter a fixture with that disclaimer on it (and that about every fixture you can buy at a big box store) do you hook it up to 60 wire anyhow or do you rewire? Or some other (non-compliant) work around?

JOHN WROTE: i can find nothing in the code to prohibit installing a new fixture that has 90 deg. wire in an old house.

Right but UL tested... and has deemed 60 degree wire not suitable.....

again, what is 'your' workaround?
 
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Old 08-21-14, 12:36 AM
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When you encounter a fixture with that disclaimer on it (and that about every fixture you can buy at a big box store) do you hook it up to 60 wire anyhow or do you rewire? Or some other (non-compliant) work around?
i install the fixture........

410.21 MADE THE light fixture manufactures increase the amount of ,and the type of, insulation above their fixtures.

it also tells the installer he may not remove the insulation.

if MY wire has broken insulation i install a sleve on it rated 90 deg. C

NO INSPECTOR has ever asked for anything more.
if you do work that must be inspected
your inspector might require more.
ask the inspector.

i have had fixture boxes where i sleved all the wires and replaced all of the wirenuts.................the box wiring is safe and in good shape when i leave it
the new fixture has a large thick pad of insulation
everything is much better after the installation.

imho........ymmv
 
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Old 08-21-14, 05:03 AM
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the new fixture has a large thick pad of insulation
everything is much better after the installation.
That "large thick pad" of insulation is the problem, its trapping the heat inside the boxes. Heat shrink may work on fixing insulation but its not going to protect insulation from the 60c cooking in this case. So I respectfully don't feel I would want my name on your invoice.

The only real workaround as I see it is to add a junction box and feed the fixture box with new wire. Either that or refuse to install the fixture.
 
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Old 08-21-14, 07:54 AM
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The only real workaround as I see it is to add a junction box and feed the fixture box with new wire.
That is the usual recommended method. However many of the 60 circuits are ungrounded so a really anal inspector might consider it extending an ungrounded circuit.
 
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Old 08-21-14, 10:28 AM
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That "large thick pad" of insulation is the problem, its trapping the heat inside the boxes.
their is no heat IN the box

the HEAT is the lamp........below the "large thick pad" of insulation which keeps the HEAT out of the box.

if you do not over lamp the fixture............you will not over heat the box.

i have no control over what size lamp you put in your fixture.
 
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Old 08-21-14, 10:51 AM
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johnsc- installing that 90c (or 75c) fixture on 60c house wire then you are also in violation of the national electric code:

NEC Section 110.3(B) requires that “Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.”
 
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