Replacing porch light - no junction box

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Old 08-03-16, 08:41 AM
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Replacing porch light - no junction box

Hi,

I've currently got an old surface mount light by my front door that I would like to replace. I'm comfortable with the wiring aspect but want to make sure I understand what's required from a code stand point.

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I'd like to install a new light similar to this:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]69164[/ATTACH]

Based on what I've seen in past threads on here, a junction box is required, and I basically have 2 options:
1. cut a hole in the siding (board & batten) and install a junction box in the wall cavity.
2. Install a surface mount junction box (pancake style?), which would mount onto the existing siding.

Am I correct? Based on the style of light I want, it appears option 1 would be better aesthetically?
 
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Old 08-03-16, 08:48 AM
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You pretty much need to use choice one as a pancake box doesn't look like it will fit behind that light fixture. You can use a shallow 4" round box.

If the 4" round box is too large to be covered by the fixture then use a standard cut-in gem box.
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Actually.... with the way that fixture attaches to its backplate.... a pancake box wouldn't work.
 
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Old 08-03-16, 09:28 AM
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Can't tell the wiring method, but if it is romex, I would use a plastic remodel box.
 
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Old 08-03-16, 10:10 AM
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Plastic remodel (AKA old-work) box.

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Ears retract for insertion then are twisted out behind siding to hold in place. Not for use with Bx cable or metal conduit.
 
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Old 08-03-16, 10:39 AM
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Based on what I've seen when in the crawl space and attic that circuit should be wired with the older 2 wire romex w/ cloth sheathing (house was built in 1956).
 
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Old 08-03-16, 04:32 PM
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that circuit should be wired with the older 2 wire romex w/ cloth sheathing
Most modern fixtures require 90 wire. The wire you describe is rated for 60. You have to find a fixture rated for 60 or replace the wire. If it were grounded you could just splice on a foot or more of 90 in a separate box but since ungrounded cable can't be extended it is a gray area if your AHJ would allow.
 
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Old 08-03-16, 06:06 PM
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Hi Ray,

I did some poking around and discovered I have access in my basement to the section of wire between the switch and outside to the outlet. Could I install a junction box in the basement in the area pictured (~ 6 feet of wire from here to existing light), pull old wire back and splice new 90C rated wire and pull new wire back up into the new box that's required for the new light fixture? Since the current wire is un-grounded I'm guessing I'd have to contact my AHJ to see if they would allow?

It's the black sheathed wire shown here, goes up to light fixture. I couldn't see any text on the sheathing.
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Old 08-03-16, 06:33 PM
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ull old wire back and splice new 90C rated wire and pull new wire back up into the new box that's required for the new light fixture?
Yes, that would be acceptable if allowed by the AHJ. Is the basement finished? How hard to go back to the panel? You could By NEC just run a ground separate. If you are on 2011 or later NEC and/or the AHJ allows you could go to the nearest grounded circuit for the new ground wire instead of the panel.
 
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Old 08-03-16, 06:54 PM
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That fixture has a separate canopy. I don't think higher heat wire is required.

It's different with ceiling mounted fixtures where the heat goes into the canopy.
 
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Old 08-03-16, 08:14 PM
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Pete's the pro. Go by his reply not mine.
 
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Old 08-04-16, 06:05 AM
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I guess it will come down to if the fixture has a warning about 90C wire being required or not - which based on Pete's info is not likely?

What's the easiest way to install that blue rework box? Pull the wire back into the basement, use a hole saw (4 inch?) to cut through siding and any sheathing, pull wire back up and through the box, then slide the box into place?
 
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Old 08-04-16, 06:46 AM
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When installing remodel boxes in an existing wall like you have I use a Rotozip with a Sabercut bit. A Dremel tool might also work, just not as powerful.
 
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Old 08-05-16, 10:08 AM
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The old cable should be stapled in the wall. I doubt you will be able to pull the old cable out.

I have installed similar fixtures that did require the 90 degree wiring. Check for a label on the fixture or fixture wires.
 
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Old 08-06-16, 07:08 AM
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pcboss - since it's probably stapled, my best option will be a rotozip or similar so I can avoid nicking the wire already in the wall like Tolyn recommended?

Does the remodel box just sit on the siding where I've cut the hole out?
 
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Old 08-06-16, 07:39 AM
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Does the remodel box just sit on the siding where I've cut the hole out?
No, you cut the hole and insert the box into the wall. They have clamps on the back/side of the box that will clamp the box to the siding. You may also want to pick up a pancake box in case there is a stud in your way and cannot install a remodel box.
 
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Old 08-06-16, 09:05 AM
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Does the remodel box just sit on the siding where I've cut the hole out?
No, as I wrote in post #4:
Ears retract for insertion then are twisted out behind siding to hold in place.

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Old 08-10-16, 06:24 PM
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Sorry Ray,

When I read your earlier post I was picturing the ears twisting out but not actually clamping against the siding, it makes more sense now.

I'm going to need to pick up a rotary style saw, anyone have a preference between the rotozip or dewalt DW660?

As an alternative, could I use a 4 inch (4 1/8 inch?) hole saw? Or do I run the risk of nicking the wire?
 
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Old 09-18-16, 06:16 PM
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Hi All!

I finally found the time to start on this project earlier today. Everyone's advice so far has been great - I was able to get the hole cut out for the new junction box today but hit a snag when I was going to install the box. I discovered that my siding is right on top of the plywood sheathing, creating a 2" deep piece of wood that the ears need to clamp behind. However, the Carlon box I picked up is only adjustable up to 7/8".

At this point I'm at a loss with how to proceed, any suggestions?

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Old 09-18-16, 06:46 PM
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Can you take off the plastic wings, rotate the box in the hole, just attach the to the siding with some screws?
 
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Old 09-18-16, 07:29 PM
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I have substituted longer longer Sheetrock screws for the original screws.

Or use a box like this:

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Old 09-20-16, 09:32 AM
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Thanks for the advice guys, I attached it to the siding like Tolyn suggested and got the light mounted last night. Still need to go back and clean things up - haven't caulked the top & sides at the siding yet and there's a small edge of the junction box flange sticking out of the side, but overall it looks pretty good!

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Thanks again!
 
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Old 09-20-16, 12:52 PM
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Looks good. The edge of the box can be trimmed or sanded off to allow the fixture to hide it.
 
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