What's wrong with vintage chandelier

I just put up a vintage chandelier that seller assured me was working... and I honestly think he thought it was because all the lights at one time or another did light up when I first installed it. But when I tightened down the bulb in one socket, there was a loud pop and then no more bulbs worked in that socket. A little while later I went to look at it again and a bulb flickered in another socket, so I tightened it, and then there was another pop at that socket PLUS a hum at the dimmer (but not the other switch, as the whole thing is wired as a three-way) and everything went dark. It all happened so fast that I'm not sure there was a particular order to that last part.
Obviously before the last part happened, I was just going to go get a new socket. But what could be wrong now that the whole thing isn't lighting up? What should I do to troubleshoot? I'd like to get as many parts and supplies all up front as possible so that I'm not making a bunch of trips, so please lay it on me. Though of course I'm hoping I don't have to completely rewire. Could a burned out socket make the whole chandelier not work?
All suggestions and advice appreciated. Thanks!

 

It is very easy to fry a dimmer. Remove the light and post a picture of the wiring on the light and the wiring at the ceiling. http://www.doityourself.com/forum/li...rt-images.html

Do you have a multimeter? If not you may need one for testing. (A non contact tester won't work.)

 

Thanks for your quick response. I'll take it back down soon, but it's just the basic lamp wire plus ground going up three feet of chain from the chandelier. The house wiring is black, white, ground. The usual.
I haven't even attempted to open up the chandelier. It's actually partly of porcelain so I want to do as little as possible to it as I go. Do you still think photos will be helpful? If I need to do anything beyond replacing sockets and dimmer, I'll be opening it up to look at the chandelier wiring.
So if the dimmer goes bad, then that also means I can't switch it on with the switch? Because that's what is happening.

 

Yes, the failed dimmer could cause the 2nd switch to stop working.
I would replace the dimmer with a 3-way switch until you are done troubleshooting.

As for the light, it sounds like it might need rewired.

 

We need to see the condition the wires are in. As Brian said it may need to be rewired. Especially if the old wires are cloth covered. That usually indicates they are very old.Be sure to record how it was wired and mark which wire from the house wiring goes to common. If there is a slave it needs to be replaced with a regular 3-way also.

 

The other is just a regular three way switch. From what I can see at the sockets they are not cloth covered. But we'll see. Looks like I'm going shopping. I'll be back!

 

I took it apart just enough to see the wiring. Turns out the socket that first blew was truly burned up. The second socket- the one that caused the entire thing to go dark - looks perfectly fine for whatever reason (though I wouldn't trust appearances). I opened up the chandelier enough to see the wires inside. Looks like 18 gauge going to the sockets from possibly 16 gauge (or maybe 14) from inside the chandelier where everything is connected together. Don't know the age but we're not talking ancient.
The burned socket messed up at least enough of the wiring to it to warrant rewiring that arm, unfortunately. But what do you think of the rest of it? Maybe just rewire that arm, replace both sockets, change out the dimmer and see what happens? Or would I be better off rewiring the whole entire thing?

 

Safest would be the second choice. You already know there is trouble with some of the wires and you can't see the ones in the arms with out removing them so might as well replace. </opinion>

 

I'd feel better about that, too, but it's not going to be fun! I really like doing most projects but I dread this because I can just see myself taping the new wire to the old, getting it just a little bit of the way through the arm and then it busts apart due to how tight it is. I can barely move the wire that's in there. I've seen a trick with thread and a vacuum cleaner that was pretty cool, but if anyone has any other hints on how to help wire get through a tight arm, I'd appreciate it.

 

Dribble liquid dish detergent down the arms and let set. Then pull the old wires out. Then blow them out with a compressor. Use wire lube on the new wires.

 

If you use dish detergent or similar then I recommend rinsing it out multiple times with plain water to make sure you get almost all of it out. A turkey baster (works like a giant medicine dropper) may be useful. Then give it several days to dry out.

Penetrating oil (the kind they use to undo stuck bolts ad nuts) would be easier to clean up after compared with detergent. Just upend the chandelier so the accumulated oil has a tendency to drip out and give it a day or two.


It is possible that the wire insulation has biodegraded in a manner that it stuck to the inside of the chandelier arms. You might get good results alternately pushing and pulling the wire a little at both ends to unstick it.

 

solder the pull wires to the pulled wires. That way they won't come apart in middle, cut soldered connections off then you get the wires through.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I went to get some supplies for this today, and when the guy pulled up the 18-2 wire, I realized I jumped to conclusions about what was in the chandelier arms because it struck me that the 18-2 was slightly bigger. Sure enough, I came home (without buying the wire) to measure, and I was right (about being wrong!). It's got to be 20 gauge, which I know is now against code.

So the question is: the inside diameter of the arm (at least on the ends and hopefully it doesn't shrink as it goes) is 7/32" at each of the openings. Am I going to be able to get a regular 18-2 wire in there? What's the typical minimum inside diameter of the arms on modern chandeliers? The one I just took down was 1/4" interior diameter. I know that's only 1/32" larger but...

Are there smooth sheath alternatives in 18 awg? The other problem is that all the stranded 18-2 I've seen has a not-so-smooth sheath, which I would think adds to the friction of getting it into a tight space. Am I making too big a deal of this? Sorry... I've done lots of electrical, but usually with romex and such for house wiring... I've not bought for this type of project before.

I'm attaching a closer look at the opening and the wire that's in there.

As a side question, in addition to using 14awg to connect everything inside the fixture, is that the correct size to go up the chain to the junction box? There's 18awg threaded through the chain right now.
Thanks!

 

What code? Fixture wiring is not generally covered by the NEC. The higher temperature rating of fixture wire often allows smaller gauge wire to be used.

 

I haven't actually referenced it directly, but I've found several sources online that quoted section 402 of NEC as specifying certain gauges for fixture wires. Specifically, table 402.3. It lists 18 to 14 AWG. Other sources recommend 18 for the arms and 14 for the rest going up.

BUT I just got back from another store trip and can't even find such a beast as 14 awg lamp wire. Nor could I find 20 gauge, either, which is why I posted the previous questions after seeing the 18 gauge.

So just use 18 awg the whole way? I'm putting 6 60 watt bulbs in for a total of 360 watts incandescent.

And that's assuming I can fit the 18 awg in the arms (see previous questions pending)

 

I have my answer. 18 awg absolutely does not fit. It appears that about 1/2" down into the arm, just past the threaded opening at the socket end, it narrows a good bit, though I don't know exactly how much. I was surprised how much it narrows though, when I looked with a flashlight. So it's smaller or nothing.

So the question is: what's the smallest gauge wire I can use if I will just have a 60 watt bulb on each arm? And where can I get the appropriate wire without paying a fortune? Will the box stores have something I can ask for specifically? (Because it won't be "lamp wire" at that size.)

Then, do I need to go from there to 14 or 16 awg at the connections up to the ceiling junction box or can I use 18 awg? And if I need 14 or 16, where do I get it, because I know one box doesn't have it and think the other doesn't either.

Lastly, the old wire I pulled out of the arm measures 5/32" wide. The 18-2 wire I bought measures 7/32" wide, for reference. (I can't find specs on how wide a 20-2 wire would be... does this sound like my old wire is 20 awg? or (eek!) smaller?)

Thanks!

 

Can you use lamp cord? It may be thinner than 2 separate wires and comes in 18 awg and stranded.

- Peter

 

What you are describing is exactly what I tried. See picture comparison old vs new. Maybe the old is actually 22-2. I'm getting very frustrated and am wondering if I should just put the old wire back in.

 

The original wire is what looks to be 18AWG SPT-1 the replacement wire you purchased is 18AWG SPT-2 (The same gauge just thicker insulation)
SPT-1 is harder to find locally but can be bought quite easily Online The link I posted is just a suggestion and I am not affiliated with TX Lamp Parts

 

You may be right about spt-1, and I hoped it was exactly as you say, but after getting the wires side by side again at the ends, I think it's still not 18. And I can't find spt-1 in anything other than 18-2. I also can't find anyone that lists the measurements (width and thickness) of any of this wire so that I can make an informed decision, without having to buy a bunch of different kinds to see what works.

 

Any guesses as to what would fit, based on the last picture? I've found 20-2 and 22-2 from My Lamp Parts, but I don't want to just buy blindly. I would hope I could get 20 and have it fit, but again, without measurements I just don't know. Does anyone have a sample of these wires you could advise about regarding diameter?

 

Why not use individual conductors down the arms something like 18 THHN or some other kind of fixture wire,take the fixture to an electrical supply house and show them what you have.
http://www.southwire.com/products/oem-tffn-tfn-tewn.htm

 

Here is the spec sheet from Southwire for their SPT wire there is also a PDF of the insulation thickness and the overall dimensions of the wire

 

Thanks for the spec sheet link. Unfortunately, this means spt-1 is only 1/64th inch smaller in width. So I'm not sure that individual conductors would help much either, though I appreciate the suggestions. I am going to try to find some sort of local place that might carry some of this stuff and see what happens.

Does anyone know why I suddenly can't stay logged in at all? Every few minutes I get logged out.

 

You might possibly be able to use wire made for wire mold electrical conduit. This wire is usually more easily available but may or may not be in a big box store. Instead I would take your chandelier to a local electric supply house and ask them for help. Wire mold type wiring just might be the answer to your problem. If you go on a Saturday though try to go early as they usually close early and forget about Sunday as those electric supply stores are usually closed. If not the wire mold type wire they may suggest something else.

 

I found that HD carries an actual lamp cord (meaning with a plug in it) in SPT-1 18-2 AWG. Would it work for me to just try it and then cut the plug off if it works? I would at least save myself ordering it online and having it shipped. I'd rather try that before going down to 20-2.
(I found a different spec sheet that described the SPT-1 size difference versus SPT-2 in a way that made me realize it was more substantial than I first thought after seeing the first spec sheet.)
I had some 20-2 speaker wire on hand and tried it for fit and I was able to get it in, so if SPT-1 in 18-2 is about the same size, then I might be in business. The spec sheet actually described SPT-1 18-2 as being smaller than the speaker wire, so that's good.
The only problem was that I couldn't navigate the 90 degree turn at the very end of the arm. I figure maybe soldering the wires MIGHT help with that. Hopefully. Though I don't much look forward to having to do that six times.

 

Can I use an SPT-1 lamp cord (with a plug on it, which I will cut off) in 18 AWG? OR is there anything different about that kind of cord? Thanks.

 

I would try it. It should be safe to use.

 

I'm back and I've tried several more things... including SPT-1, which didn't fit, and two TFFN wires, which kinda sorta fit but got torn up in the process of going through the arm, so those are a NO.

I'm left with downgrading my options at this point.

I may have mentioned previously that an employee at Ace Hardware had said that he has resorted to 18-gauge speaker wire a couple of times when he's been in my shoes. That's one option.

Another option is to try a 20-gauge wire, such as "20/2 GAUGE 2-CONDUCTOR BLACK COLOR PLT I-64 JACKET WIRE" from Grand Brass or "Very Thin Transparent Plastic Lamp Cord - Silver - 20/2 Gauge" from mylampparts.com or similar. That's my second option.

My third option is crying and putting candles in the darn thing.

Again, each wire will have a single 60w bulb, and if I have to, I can go with LED to reduce the amps.

Opinions on my two (or three) options?

 

#18 speaker wire is not rated for 120 volts. #20 is rated for 11 amps for chassis wiring. Even if you used 60 watt incandescent you would still only be at 2 amps. Even less with LEDs. If you are nervous about the #20 use a 5 or 10 amp fuse in the base.

 

20-gauge it is, then!
I had wondered if that would be the case. Unfortunately, I'll have to pay $7 in shipping for $3 worth of wire!