...Boat Ran, Now Won't Run?

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  #1  
Old 04-26-05, 09:53 AM
onegizmo4u
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Question ...Boat Ran, Now Won't Run?


OK, I WILL START FROM BEGINNING. I HAVE A 77 MANTA RAY BOAT, BUT I GUES THAT PART DOES NOT MATTER. IT HAS A FORD 460 ENGINE IN IT, WITH A DOMINATOR JET, JET DRIVE. WELL I BELIEVE IT HAS A FORD 460. ON THE INTAKE MANIFOLD THE ONLY THING IT HAS STAMPED IS EIDELBROCK, TORKER 460; SO IF IT NOT A FORD, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FIRING ORDER FOR THIS ENGINE WOULD BE.
FIRING ORDER WRITTEN ON THE INTAKE MAINIFOLD WITH BLACK SHARPIE IS SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THE ACTUAL FIRING ORDER THAT WAS SET UP ON MY DISTRIBUTOR WHEN I BOUGHT THE BOUGHT A COUPLE MONTHS AGO. ALONG WITH THAT THE FIRING ORDER THAT A FORD 460 IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE IS SOMETHING ELSE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THE OTHER TWO.
I CHANGED THE OIL AND THE SPARK PLUGS JUST TO KNOW WHEN IT HAD BEEN DONE LAST. I NOTICED A LITTLE BIT OF OIL ON THE SPARK PLUGS AS I REMOVED THEM. I THOUGH NOTHING OF IT AND FINSHED THOSE TWO THINGS AND DECIDED TO TAKE IT OUT AND SEE HOW IT DOES FOR A WEEKEND.
I WENT TO THE LAKE TWO WEEKENDS AGO WITH THE FIRING ORDER THE SAME AS WHEN I BOUGHT IT WITHOUT CHANGING ANYTHING, BECAUSE IT RAN LIKE THAT. I CONSTANTLY HAD SOME WHITE SMOKE AND AFTER TWO DAYS OF RUNNING (WE CAMPED OUT), IT WOULD NOT START THE NEXT MORNING. WE GOT A TOW INTO THE DOCK AND PULLED THE BOAT OUT OF THE WATER. AFTER A COUPLE OF MINUTES IT FIRED UP. WE PUT THE BOAT BACK INTO THE WATER AND IT STARTED BUT THEN DIED. IT DID THIS A COUPLE OF TIMES AND WE DICED JUST TO GO HOME.
SINCE HAVE BEEN HOME, I CHANGED A FRIED DISTRIBUTOR CAP, GOT NEW POINTS (IT HAS DUAL POINTS), SET THE GAP ON THEM, AND ALSO GOT A NEW CONDENSOR AND CHANGED THE FIRING ORDER TO WHAT EVERY FORD 460 ENGINE HAS BEEN SET TO.
NOW IT WILL NOT START AND I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO!
PLEASE HELP ME!
 
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  #2  
Old 04-26-05, 02:47 PM
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MAN, STOP SCREAMING!!!!

You've got a thirty (almost) year old jet boat. I would say that there is a very good chance that you do not have much on that engine that is "standard". You may have to forget about the traditional firing order especially if you don't know what crank & cam are in the engine.

If the engine ran with the "penned in" firing order and the engine will not run with your new firing order I would go back to the old "penned in" firing order and start from there.

White smoke in the exhaust and oil on the plugs does not tell me to change the firing order. I would look at the rings, timing & mixture, drink a case of beer and then maybe think of changing the firing order.

I wonder if you had some moisture condense in your distributor during the night when you were camping. You mentioned that the engine ran the day before, but would not start in the morning, and ran later that day.

Many jet boats are far from "normal". Their owners generally take pride in their power and performance and often do not hesitate to change something for more power. Many are full blown race engines and have short life spans. You might want to take the engine apart and see what you have.
 
  #3  
Old 04-27-05, 11:48 AM
onegizmo4u
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I Am Sorry, I Am Not Screaming I Just Like To Write In All Caps Lock.

You Misunderstood, The Boat Ran With A Firing Order That Was Neither The "penned In" One Or The Original Ford Firing Order, But One That Was Completely Different From The Two.

I Did Try To Change The Firing Order Back To What It Originally Was When The Boat Ran, But Still To No Avel It Will Not Start No Matter If There Is Starting Fluid, Or What Firing Order It Is Set At Of The Three I Have To Choose From. I Have Checked The Timing And It Is Also Set Fine. I Appreciate Your Help But The Boat Is Still Not Starting. I Think Beer Is My Only Option Left....
 
  #4  
Old 04-27-05, 12:40 PM
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Wink

Might try at http://www.marineengine.com/

and see if they have the manuals for that engine
1977 could some one have put a new short block in there sometime.

ED
 
  #5  
Old 04-27-05, 12:54 PM
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It sounds like you are going to have a tough one, an engine that may have been modified (a lot) and three or more possible firing orders.

You could remove all the spark plugs and turn the engine over slowly by hand while holding a finger over a spark plug hole. Repeat this for each cylinder and take good notes as to when each cylinder is coming up on it's compression stroke (the order). This could help you eliminate the firing orders that are no good. If you do the test and see that one firing order would be firing a cylinder when it is on the down or exhaust stroke you know that order is wrong.

Yes, I know that turning over a big block by hand while holding your finger over the spark plug hole is not easy. You will probably need a helper and a wrench (or wrench with a piece of pipe) several feet long.

Let us all know what you find out. I'm curious to hear what's going on. Also, do you have any pictures of the boat?
 
  #6  
Old 04-27-05, 03:44 PM
onegizmo4u
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Although It May Take A While, That May Be My Best Option Right Now, And Yes I Do Have Pictures Of My Boat And Engine But I Do Not Know If I Would Be Able To Upload Any Of Them Onto This Site.
 
  #7  
Old 04-30-05, 08:49 AM
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...not running

Assuming you did not disturb the distributor position (timing), and only replaced and gapped the plugs a 460ci Ford should fire.

As indicated by PilotDane's last response track the firing order starting with #1 cylinder, and Set plug wires accordingly.

I have had problems with a Ford 390ci distributor not having any spark after I did the same tune-up. I found I needed a simple test lamp (looks like a screwdriver ) to see if it lit up when the points opened (or closed). I had a short due to improper attachment of a wire or where you mount the points to an insulating block.

It has happened more than once so there must be an opportunity for a bad connection!

The Chilton manual I have indicates a '77 had a breakerless ignition.

I had a '70 LTD wirh 429ci that ran for 17 years and 230000 miles. I set points at .021 and plugs at .034, timing 6 degrees BTC. Perhaps this a setting to start from. The Chilton manual shows 8 degrees BTC for a '76 Ford 460ci.

I rebuild old engines as soon as I get them! Keeping only block, crank, rods and heads as cores. Cost here for a long block in/out at a 'competing' machine shop is about C$1800.

Update:
I had called the local (young) auto wrecker who has experience with aftermarket modifications. He just came by and says that Edlebrock sold intake manifolds with numbers from 310, 320, 460, 510 etc. He said to look at the block opposite to the starter side near a frost plug at the back of the engine, to determine the engine's manufacturer GM, or Ford.

Your manifold markings do NOT, according to him, necessarilly relate to the engine block's maker.

The manifold, camshaft, heads, chain (or gears), distributor, and possibly the
crank are all a GROUP of aftermarket mods.

The modifications are probably assembled on the Ford 460ci OR the GM 440ci.
Results were great torque, (towing capability?).

Curiosity compells me to look up these aftermarket parts on the web!

http://www.gofastparts.com/
http://www.slowboyracing.com/

 

Last edited by oldJoe; 04-30-05 at 12:06 PM. Reason: New info
  #8  
Old 05-01-05, 12:08 PM
onegizmo4u
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Talking Its Alive!!!!

GOOD NEWS, I GOT THE THING STARTED, AND NOW IT RUNS PRETTY CLEAN, I JUST NEED TO MAKE THE MINOR ADJUSTS OF AIR/FUEL MIX, TIMING, ETC, TO GET IT RUNNING REALLY CLEAN. I FOUND OUT THAT AFTER I CHANGED OUT THE CAP, POINTS, CONDENSOR AND ROTOR WHICH WERE ALL PARITALLY FRIED IF NOT ALL THE WAY FRIED, THAT WHEN I PUT MY NEW POINTS IN, THE PRONGS ON EACH SIDE OF EACH POINT, WHERE THE ELECTRICAL WIRES ARE CONNECTED TO, WERE TOUCHING THE EDGES OF THE DISTRIBUTOR WALLS, AND THEREFORE GROUNDING OUT AND NOT CREATING ANY SPARK. SO ONCE I FOUND THAT OUT AND PRIED THE PRONGS AWAY FROM THE WALLS, I HAD SPARK AND AFTER ONLY SOME SLIGHT PLAYING WITH IT FIRED UP AND RAN BETTER THAN IT HAS SINCE I BOUGHT IT. NOW ITS JUST THE FINE TUNNING.

SO THANK ALL OF YOU FOR YOUR HELP, AND WISH ME LUCK!
 
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