Gilson Riding Mower Briggs & Stratton 282707 0026 01 9507264D

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  #1  
Old 03-31-07, 09:54 PM
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Riding Mower Wiring

Gilson Riding Mower 52122C 49051 SN: 7139E1 811
Briggs & Stratton 282707 0026 01 9507264D

I moved from the city to the country... 1 acre of land is way to much for a mother of 3 teens with a full-time job to cut with a push mower. (No, the teens don't help>> city-kids - besides, I love doing it - it's therapeutic and the teens are no where to be found on grass-cutting day - yay! *wink*).

So, anyway, my ex found this ancient-looking Gilson riding mower in his Dad's barn and gave it to me. Now I need to fix it.

He could start it by jumping it with jumper cables to the car, I don't think this is safe and won't even try it AND I don't want to have to drive the car to the mower every time I need to start it again.

The motor runs fine, once you get it started. Things are rusty, but it seems not to matter since it runs.

There are wires sticking out all over the place, not connected to anything. I bought a 12 volt battery and installed it and changed the solenoid, but now I'm stuck. I can't find a wiring diagram for this specific motor anywhere. Do you know where I can find one? Or even a generic diagram that applies to this motor?

And just out of curiosity, where the heck did this mower come from? Montgomery Ward? Western Auto? and how old is it? (ex-husband's Dad passed away years ago, Mom doesn't know anything about - doesn't even remember it.)
 

Last edited by CamilleMuir; 04-03-07 at 06:17 AM. Reason: Added mower model
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  #2  
Old 04-01-07, 08:45 AM
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That machine might well be more of a curse than a blessing. Machines rust even when they are sitting and depending on the environment it could be just one big pile of rust waiting until you hit one big speed bump before disintergrating.
Gilson is, (was), well enough known but with all the buyouts the last several years, it's hard to keep track of who owns who these days.
Briggs and Stratton has an excellent web site you may wish to investigate. Wiring is pretty straight forward and shouldn't cause any undue concern once you know the theory of it.
You might be wise to keep your eye out for a good used, and a lot newer machine. Let the dealers know where you're at and they can help you get into a good trade-in. You will need to hook up with a good, fair and honest dealer unless you're willing to learn all about maintaining these machines.
For a one acre lot, I would suggest a minimum of an 11 horsepower machine with a 32" or 34" deck. Bigger decks are harder on the engine.
Some things to look at on the Gilson you have at the moment are belt(s) and blade spindle bearings along with the blades thenselves and the tires. Rims have a habit of rusting and developing slow leaks over the years. For the engine, you will need oil change(s), air filter service and possibly a carb kit: and that's just for starters.
 
  #3  
Old 04-01-07, 09:11 AM
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Are you having problems after installing a new battery?
If so make sure the battery cables and connections are clean and in good order.
For wiring diagram you will need to use the model #'s from the mower itself, the engine wiring will not have the info you are looking for.
If jumping the mower at the battery from a car worked, then a good battery should be all you need. If it was jumped at the starter then you may have an issue somewhere.
If you can find ID #'s from the mower, under the seat or on the rear of the mower, I am sure we could find more info.
If that is the original engine, the Manuf. date you posted is July 26, 1995.
This does not fit my definition of "Ancient" and a wild guess I would say MTD
 
  #4  
Old 04-01-07, 09:16 AM
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Backyardwonder,

Thanks so much for the information! I'm perfectly willing to learn all I need to know to maintain my yard machines. I've been reading a lot on that subject but don't yet feel I have the whole thing set to memory. I suppose actually doing it will help in that area.

There are a few dealers around here. I'll start visiting them and try to determine who is trustworthy and helpful! I broke the push mower, (fishing string wrapped around the blade and the part where the blade bolt screws into and broke that screwing-into part). So I just want to get this one running until I'm in a better position to purchase one of those new, fancy jobs that will make the neighbors envious.

I did visit the B&S site, however I could not locate a wiring diagram there, or anywhere else. Could you suggest a site for me to learn the theory behind wiring? I'm a quick study, just need to know where to find the info. I've been searching for days and days and haven't found what I think I'm looking for.

Belt and blade(s) (are there 2? ex did it) have been changed. Ex did the oil and air filter change before he brought it to me. Carb seems OK, but I'll study up on it and take a look at it. He ran around the yard on it for a couple of hours without any problems. Cuts and runs fine.

The rust I'm seeing is the flywheel and muffler. I think I can change the muffler, but what about that flywheel? Is it difficult and necessary to change? I recently saw one on eBay for about 6 bucks (not including shipping) for my engine model.

Rims look like surface rust. The tires were flat, but we pumped them up last week and they're holding air just fine.
 
  #5  
Old 04-01-07, 09:38 AM
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Azis,

Mr. Gilson (as the kids call him) is a model 52122C 49051 SN: 7139E1 811

The problem is that there is no longer an ignition switch, just wires not connected to anything. There was an old battery on it when ex jumped it and the wires were connected at that time. I didn't see when he did it, so I don't know exactly what he did, I think he said there was a screwdriver involved with the broken down ignition, I didn't listen much past the point of "jump it with car" since I don't want to have to do that. I bought the battery and installed it and a new ignition switch and asked him to change it. He started that project but never finished. He said something about he burned up a coil (?) because he connected it wrong and that was it, he never came back to it. (Wonder why I'm divorced?) So all the wires he disconnected are swinging in the wind.

No, 1995 would not make ancient by anyone's definition... I don't think. *grin* Mr. Gilson just looks old, I suppose it's the rust and dust. A good bath with a little scrubbing might dress him right up.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is "MTD"?
 
  #6  
Old 04-01-07, 10:24 AM
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MTD is a major manufacture of outdoor power equipment for many distributors and has been for years.
My wild guess was just that, wild and off heheh.
What I can find on Gilson is that it was absorbed by Lawnboy maybe late 1980's...So I would take those #'s and inquire at a Lawnboy dealer.
I also found this generic manual that says it should include your mower.
http://smallengineadvisor.com/starters/prods/SE-_30.html
I would use the book title and maybe author and search for the book at a much better price.
We can talk you through most of I think if you can give a blow by blow of where and what.
If it started ran and mowed then for your small (by country standards ) 1 acre lot should be no problem for it to keep civlized
 
  #7  
Old 04-01-07, 10:37 AM
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Sorry your funny went over my head.

Civilized sounds wonderful to me!

Amazon has that book for $23.52 new (used ~$12). I purchased another book by the same folks last week: Yard & Garden Tractor Service Manual 1st Edition Volume 1 Single-Cylinder Models. The description said it included my model, but I didn't find much on it in that book and not the wiring diagram I've been looking for.

Your help is VERY much appreciated. You are such nice guys for doing this!

I'll find the Lawnboy dealer near here and pay them a visit during the week.

Thanks!
 
  #8  
Old 04-01-07, 10:53 AM
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One last thing you might look for to take to the Lawnboy dealer, if the mower has any Decals or graphics, make note of them.
 
  #9  
Old 04-01-07, 12:27 PM
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Rusty flywheel is no big deal. You can clean the rust off with sandpaper or wire brush. It doesn't have to shine, just be smooth. Rusty muffler can cost an arm and a leg at a dealer or maybe half the at an aftermarket retailer. You'll know when's it time to replace it by the noise.

If your ex blew the coil, that is a big problem and needs to be attended to. Hopefully, you can get the engine breakdown off the B&S web site. Coil to flywheel clearance might be .010" or so, (or 10 thou as they say in the "trade"). I would have thought the ignition would have been electronic by 1995. Maybe he was referring to the alternator coil under the flywheel.

Aziz is right to point out that the engine and the machine are two separate units. The engine is one thing; the machine is entirely another. There are a lot more machine brands out there than there are engine manufactures. Most machine manufacturers will ise either Briggs and Stratton or Tecumseh engines on their domestic machines. Heavier, more commercial units tend to use Kohler, Honda or other engines.

I am going to go to the B&S web site later and see what comes up for that engine before I say too much more, (if I haven't already).
 
  #10  
Old 04-01-07, 08:49 PM
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You'll need a Gilson manual to show you the wiring for the mower. Engine manuals won't cover the stuff you're trying to fix. If you manage to find a manual for this old mower, I'd be surprised. Gilson has been gone for a long time. I think your best course of action would be to find someone who can figure out the existing wiring. Sounds like a mess, but it can be sorted out. I wish I could give you more helpful info!

I would also reccomend not spending much on this mower. The engine may be a 1995, but the mower is probably 30 or so years old. Parts are obsolete and generally unavailable, and Gilsons weren't the cream of the crop in the first place and you probably won't get much of anything for it if you ever try to sell it. Of course, it's your decision...I just want you to be aware of the situation.
 
  #11  
Old 04-02-07, 03:27 AM
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Cheese,

Your info IS helpful. I will keep your advice in mind when making decisions about how much to spend on this machine.

Thanks!
 
  #12  
Old 04-02-07, 11:34 PM
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The problem is that there is no longer an ignition switch, just wires not connected to anything. Well I would look into a switch first of all. Did he hook the jumper cables to the battery and put the screwdriver near the rear of the engine ?

Crom
 
  #13  
Old 04-03-07, 04:22 AM
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Crom60,

The broken down, rusty old ignition switch was there when he jumped it and the wires *were* all connected at that time. I think he stuck the screwdriver in the rusty old ignition when he started it. He took it all apart when I asked him to install the new ignition switch. But he never finished the job and now I don't know what all those wires are supposed to connect to. He said he burned up something (I though he said coil, but I may be wrong) when he was trying to install the new one. Now he won't come back to finish the job and I am left to figure out what connects to where and what piece is missing (burned up).

I did call several local dealers yesterday. When I said, "Gilson", they said, "No". The lady at Western Auto agreed to look at it Friday and try to figure out what is what and tell me what I need. She can't work it now, too busy, but she'll try to explain it to me between customers on Friday.

I'll let you all know how that goes.
 
  #14  
Old 04-03-07, 05:52 AM
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When you first mentioned coil, I assumed, (and lets hope) he would have been refering to the coil in the solenoid. If the key was installed while he was doing this, the ignition coil/magneto, should not have been affected. (again lets hope )
 
  #15  
Old 04-03-07, 10:54 PM
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It's pretty common for people to install the incorrect ignition switch and burn up the ignition coil. Just because a switch looks the same doesn't mean it is, and what happens is the terminal configuration on the back of the switch can be such that it applies voltage to the coil kill wire, which burns up the coil in an instant. If there are several wires where the switch used to be, he likely pulled the wires out of the connector block to re-arrange them so that the configuration matches the switch he had. If so, even with the right switch, there is going to be some figuring to do.

If you get a switch, and have a voltmeter/ohmmeter, a little knowledge of how to use it, and some patience, we can help figure out which wire goes where on the switch. (if you're inclined to try to trace out the wiring harness yourself).
 
  #16  
Old 04-04-07, 03:53 AM
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Cheese,

Thanks! I AM inclined to do whatever it takes to get this thing going. If I don't get the grass cut soon, I'll be asking for advice on buying a bushhog! My one acre is a former horse pasture - lots of residual fertilizer making the grass grow FAST! When I talk to the Western Auto folks, I'll ask them to help determine the correct ignition switch.

My Dad has told me several times that I need a voltmeter. The last time he came over to fix a problem with my stove outlet, he needed a voltmeter and I didn't have one. He improvised with a lamp and an old electrical cord he cut and stuck in the wall outlet. I'm disinclined to try that myself. So I'll break down and buy a voltmeter.

I don't think the ex pulled wires out of the connector block. I'll look at the machine this afternoon and tell you about the wires that are not connected to anything. I get the idea (from my boss who did look at the machine briefly) that there are: starter wires, alternator wires, headlight wires and that a fuse belongs somewhere in there. There is no longer a headlight switch on the "dash" and I don't think I *need* headlights on the machine (do I?), so we could skip that part if it makes things more complicated.

My boss found a PDF file with about 9 different wiring diagrams for Briggs & Stratton motors. I'm not sure which one applies to my machine. I'll show them to the Western Auto folks when I go. There are 5-pole and 6-pole ignitions in the diagrams he gave me.

Is the ignition coil something separate from the ignition switch? Should my shopping list include: Ignition switch, voltmeter & ignition coil?
 
  #17  
Old 04-04-07, 06:13 AM
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How about we pretend no one you know has done ne thing to it at all and play like you just found it like this in the barn?
1. Is there still a connector/plug with 5 or 6 wires that an ignition switch will plug into? (These are the wires cheese refered to being pulled out of the connector block)
2. Count how many and what color wires are not connected to anything.
3. If you have the old and new ignition switch, look at the terminals on the back, they are lettered. Are both switches lettered exactly the same?
4. I would not buy any parts until you can verify a few things. The ignition switch is not the same as the ignition coil. The ignition coil will not come into play until after you get the starter to work from the ignition switch.

Most auto parts stores will have some sort of inexpensive auto circuit tester. You need to be able to test for 12 Volts DC and continuity. It is always usefull to have a decent volt meter around the house so you may want to get one with all the options, AC/DC Voltage, AMPs, and ohms. You can still find these fairly inexpensive.
 
  #18  
Old 04-04-07, 05:59 PM
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Wires

dots = place holders (ignore)
nc=not connected to anything
color = wire color
[xxx]= part (not wires)
connector1 = rubbery/plastic wire end (wire gone)


.....................Black–––––––––[ B&S ] <Red [PLASTIC ]>Orange– nc
.....................(melted)..........[MOTOR] <Black[CONNECTOR] >Yellow– nc
.........................|................[ ] *
.........................|
nc –Yellow– [SCREW1] – unknown color – [SCREW2]
.........................|
.................Connector1
.........................|
........................nc


*[STARTER
. MOTOR]–––red–––[SOLENOID]–––red–––[BATTERY]–––black–––[FRAME]
.......................................| |
.....................................Green
.......................................|
.......................................nc



nc–yellow–nc


nc–green\
> 25 amp fuse
nc–green/
 

Last edited by CamilleMuir; 04-04-07 at 06:06 PM. Reason: to fix it
  #19  
Old 04-04-07, 06:17 PM
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Old ignition switch

key side has "5LD" stamped on it
also has "Pat No. 3497644 Others pending"

It has 5 prongs with letters next to them as follows:

....Top left = G..........top right = B
bottom left = L ....bottom right = S .......5th=M
 

Last edited by CamilleMuir; 04-05-07 at 08:04 PM.
  #20  
Old 04-04-07, 06:50 PM
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New Ignition Switch

The new switch has 4 screws labeled: Battery, Ignition, Accessory and the 4th isn't labeled.
 
  #21  
Old 04-04-07, 07:39 PM
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Nice Job, looks like cheese will be up late tonight
 
  #22  
Old 04-04-07, 07:59 PM
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Azis,
Thanks. and I agree with your idea about pretending.
 
  #23  
Old 04-04-07, 08:09 PM
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I think I've almost got it figured out based on one of the wiring diagrams from my boss.

But I have these questions:
1. what does the Stop Switch Terminal looks like?
2. what does the Carburetor Solenoid look like?
3. between which 2 components does the ignition coil belong?
4. between which 2 components does the 25 amp fuse belong?
5. where to connect the ignition switch ground wire?

Here's a new twist: Under the seat, there are some cut wires, where would they be connected if they weren't cut?
 
  #24  
Old 04-04-07, 08:30 PM
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The switch you got won't work. You need one like you described with the 5 terminals. I don't think your engine has a carburetor solenoid.
 
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Old 04-04-07, 08:40 PM
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[QUOTE=CamilleMuir;1153908]I think I've almost got it figured out based on one of the wiring diagrams from my boss.

But I have these questions:
1. what does the Stop Switch Terminal looks like?
A-This is prolly you key switch contact in the off/stop position

2. what does the Carburetor Solenoid look like?
A-This will screw into the bottom of your carburetor, and have one or two wires. That will also need to be dealt with, but not until you get the starter circuit back online. It may be ok or fix itself along the way.

3. between which 2 components does the ignition coil belong?
A-The ignition coil/magneto is under the engine shroud. It is what the spark plug lead attaches to. There is also ground terminal with one wire that makes its way to the key switch then to ground.
4. between which 2 components does the 25 amp fuse belong?
A-Honestly not sure on this one, I would have to bump my head on it a few times.

5. where to connect the ignition switch ground wire?
A-If you can tell how its terminated it might help finding where it used to go. If its a round terminal, maybe just a frame bolt. Cheese or someone else will know better from memory surely.

Here's a new twist: Under the seat, there are some cut wires, where would they be connected if they weren't cut?
A-That would be your operator presence switch, you will need to find the wires that are supposed to connect to them. They could be hangin under the fender.
 
  #26  
Old 04-05-07, 08:02 PM
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Talking

Boss let us off early today. I went to Western Auto and I think they told me what I needed to know.

-Wires Not Connected were:
-Plastic Connector to Orange
-Plastic Connector to Yellow
-Screw1 to Yellow
-Screw1 to Connector1
-Solenoid to Green
-Yellow
-Green w/25 amp fuse

Here's what Western Auto told me to do:
-Plastic Connector to Orange (faded red) to Battery
-Plastic Connector to Yellow (yellowed-white) to Lights
-Screw1 to Yellow (should be black) to G on ignition
-Solenoid to Green to S on ignition
-Screw1 to Connector1 <connector removed> yellow (should be orange) connected here and to M on ignition
-Green w/25 amp fuse (should be red): one side to battery + other side to B on ignition

If I understand correctly, Screw1 is a ground and the G and M wires from the ignition both connect there. Is that right?

The new ignition switch is now installed and the motor turns over when I turn the key to Start, but it hasn't actually started yet. I get a little puff of smoke out of the muffler every so often while it's turning over.

Here's what's been done so far: new spark plug, new air filter, changed the oil, changed the gas, new deck belt, new battery, new solenoid, new ignition switch, new wires, cleaned off lots of dirt and old grass.

I traced that black (melted) wire: it comes from the general area of the spark plug. Was this wire melted when the ignition coil was burned? Does it need to be changed? Why didn't the Western Auto folks say I needed an ignition coil? Is it necessary?
 
  #27  
Old 04-06-07, 07:00 AM
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If your melted wire does go to the ignition coil, its possible it still has continuity, although the insulation has most likely melted in places leaving bare wire. If you are getting puff of smoke from the muffler, it should be working somewhat at least. Its likely you have bare wire tho and this needs to be fixed since if it grounds out it is just like turning the key to the off position.
Either way you should confirm the wire to the coil is in good condition or replace/repair it if not. You will need to remove the shroud from the engine to access it.
 
  #28  
Old 04-06-07, 07:05 AM
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the screw that the black melted wire connects to, is that where the kill and ground wires from ignition switch are supposed to be connected?
 
  #29  
Old 04-06-07, 08:58 AM
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The melted wire was, indeed, the wire to the ignition coil. It has now been replaced - still no start.
 
  #30  
Old 04-06-07, 09:08 AM
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Disconnect the wire at the ignition coil and check for spark. If you try to start it and it does start it will not shut off with this wire disconnected, you would have to pull the spark plug wire.
If you get no spark with this wire disconnected then you will need a new ignition coil.
 
  #31  
Old 04-06-07, 09:11 AM
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The wire to the ignition coil should not go to a screw. It should go to G on the key switch, the other wire should tie into a safety switch.
 
  #32  
Old 04-06-07, 09:11 AM
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No spark - going to the parts store.
 
  #33  
Old 04-06-07, 11:22 AM
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new ignition coil installed. still no start
 
  #34  
Old 04-06-07, 11:32 AM
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Perform the same test as I mentioned for the old one. You must remove the wire directly from the coil terminal itself under the shroud.
How are you checking for spark?
 
  #35  
Old 04-06-07, 12:46 PM
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to check for spark, I removed the wire from the spark plug and holding it by the boot, I hold it near the metal frame.

I just noticed, there is a short black wire coming off the solenoid that isn't connected to anything. Should it be?
 
  #36  
Old 04-06-07, 04:06 PM
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Install a spark plug into the lead and hold the hex or threaded portion against the engine block or ground and look for spark on the plug.
If you remove the wire at the ignition coil and you get no spark, then the coil is bad or the flywheel magnets have gone bad This bypasses ALL wiring.
 
  #37  
Old 04-06-07, 05:37 PM
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My Dad came over, he did what you described. We didn't see a spark, but his meter says it's getting enough voltage to fire. It shocked him once, but not every time we tried it. Dad called a retired lawn mower repair expert friend of his who told him we needed to check to see if we sheared the key. Dad checked lots of things with that meter and said my wiring is all good. Dad didn't have the right socket to get to the key so he left.

Then my business partner came over to drop off paperwork and, of course, had to check up on my progress. He ran off to Lowes and bought the socket needed. He said the key looks fine to him.

If the magnets have gone bad, does that mean they are no longer magnetized? Because they are still grabbing at every tool that gets near them.

What else could it be?
 
  #38  
Old 04-06-07, 05:59 PM
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If your getting shocked the magnets are fine, which I am sure they are anyway. My point was that as long as you have a wire connected to the ignition coil, that wire may can and will cause the coil to short out.
Did you set the air gap on the coil?
Did you try another spark plug?
Was the wire to the coil melted under the shroud?
 
  #39  
Old 04-06-07, 06:15 PM
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Yes, I set the air gap on the coil using the card included with new coil.
No, I did not try another spark plug -this is a brand new plug, but I'll try that tomorrow.
No, the wire to the coil was not melted under the shroud, the worst of the melt was right in the middle of the wire.

Dad's friend called back -he said the new ignition coil might be defective and suggested I take it back to the parts store and ask them to test it. I'll do that tomorrow too.

Thank you, Azis, for all your help, you're the greatest!!!

I'll let you know how those 2 tests go tomorrow.
 
  #40  
Old 04-06-07, 08:06 PM
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As mentioned earlier, that switch isn't going to work. You can get it to start your engine, but it won't shut it down. It is made for an automotive type ignition system, not a magneto style like you have, but do what you will.
 
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