too much oil in kohler Command 20hp

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  #1  
Old 08-18-07, 06:27 PM
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Angry too much oil in kohler Command 20hp

I recently purchased a 1999 troy-bilt gtx 20. Today I changed the oil and accidentally overfilled the oil by about 1/2 quart. I didn't notice until after I ran for about 5 minutes and the engine stalled.

I drained off the excess oil but now it just runs about a second then stalls. It gets fuel when cranking but stops when it trys to run.

I think the fuel pump is crankcase pressure powered and the problem may be something that's causing my crankcase pressure to be too low, But I really don't know.

Any help would be appreciated!
 
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  #2  
Old 08-18-07, 07:15 PM
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The added oil in the crankcase creates more air pressure in the crankcase,
which is releved by the pop it valve in the breather cover and oil can be blowed into the carb. and or the fuel pump.In ether case a good cleaning is in order.
 
  #3  
Old 08-18-07, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by repair_guy View Post
The added oil in the crankcase creates more air pressure in the crankcase,
which is releved by the pop it valve in the breather cover and oil can be blowed into the carb. and or the fuel pump.In ether case a good cleaning is in order.

The carb looks ok, I can see the fuel stop when it starts which I think causes the stall. I pulled the 4 screws off the fuel pump and it didn't seem like there was oil there either, though I didn't go to far with the pump because the rubber valves seemed like they could damage easily. Is the pop it valve resettable, or should it reset itself?

Thanks so much for the help
Gary
 
  #4  
Old 08-18-07, 08:10 PM
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You say you can see the fuel stop...where do you see this? I'm not so sure this is related tot he oil being over-full. I don't see how that would affect fuel flow. Is the gas cap vent open? Fuel shutoff valve open? (if equipped)
 
  #5  
Old 08-18-07, 08:37 PM
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I have gas out of the fuel filter & I'm sure I have gas and shut off valve is on. When I take off the air filter and look into the carb then try to start I see gas being fed into carb the engine starts then the gas stops and then engine stalls, all in a couple seconds.

Just now I pulled the valve cover with the oil fill on it off looking for the popit valve, I didnt see anything so I put it togather again. It's been a few hours since I tried to start last but this time it ran for about 45 seconds (jumps of joy) only to have it stall again and not restart again, same as before.

The reason I'm thinking it may be related to the overfill is because the fuel pump looks to be driven by crankcase pressure, a hose goes from the fuel pump to the engine right above the oil filter.

thanks for the help
Gary
 
  #6  
Old 08-18-07, 11:57 PM
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I've worked on one of these B 4,they have two types of fuel pumps.Compusion & Mechanical.Does your fuel pump have two or three lines going to it?If it has three lines,the bottom left I think goes to the oil fill tube.If this is the one that you have examine the oil fill tube good (this includes the dip-stick an cap).for cracks.If you don't see any take the shroud off and check this line for any holes or cracks.If air can enter from anywhere,the fuel pump wont work.It works ONLY on engine compusion.And also as Cheese sugested,check the vent in the fuel cap.Is the Fuel Shut-off Solenoid on bottom of the carb.working??
 
  #7  
Old 08-19-07, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by repair_guy View Post
I've worked on one of these B 4,they have two types of fuel pumps.Compusion & Mechanical.Does your fuel pump have two or three lines going to it?If it has three lines,the bottom left I think goes to the oil fill tube.If this is the one that you have examine the oil fill tube good (this includes the dip-stick an cap).for cracks.If you don't see any take the shroud off and check this line for any holes or cracks.If air can enter from anywhere,the fuel pump wont work.It works ONLY on engine compusion.And also as Cheese sugested,check the vent in the fuel cap.Is the Fuel Shut-off Solenoid on bottom of the carb.working??
Mine has 3 hoses, on the bottom is the line from the filter, on the top it goes to the carb and on the left, or front side a rubber hose goes into the block just above the oil filter.

I just checked for cracks in the rubber tube and also the metal tube on the opposite side of the engine for the dip stick, all do look fine. If I take the gas cap off I can blow air into the tank but not out, appears to be a check valve in the cap working OK. I dont recall seeing any wires going to a solenoid on the bottom of the carb, I will need to look better in the am

Thanks so much for taking the time to help!

Gary
 
  #8  
Old 08-19-07, 08:43 AM
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I do think the fuel solenoid is working, when I unplug it the engine won't even start for the split second, when I plug it in again it starts for a second then stalls

I'm starting to think that the fuel pump may be working correctly. I would think that if the engine looks to start then dies there would be gas in the carb for it to run longer then a second. I also disconnected the line out of the pump going to the carb and in that second that it runs it starts to pump.

would you guys agree with these assumptions based on what I tried?

thanks
Gary
 
  #9  
Old 08-19-07, 01:23 PM
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Would a compression test tell me if there was actual engine damage, like a blown head gasket. At this point I'm at a loss as to what to try next.

Any Idea's?
 
  #10  
Old 08-19-07, 05:24 PM
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Does the engine make a "whish"sound coming from the head area that would indacate a blown head gasket?
and while two compresson checks would show a lot,cylinder,piston/ring condention or valves.
I still think that it is in the fuel system.We've already ruled out the fuel pump/lines,Fuel Shut-off Solenoid,and the fuel cap.(make sure that you've got clean fuel in the tank and then Next thing would be to see where the carb. adjustment (H & L) screws are setting.Both should be 1-1/2 from lightly seated.If this doesn't do it,take the top of carb off and inspect the float and inlet needle/seat under the float and clean.The correct float height adjustment is 22 mm
(0.86 in.), measured from the float bottom to the
air horn casting. Adjust the float height by
carefully bending the tab that is located on the float right on top of the inlet needle.

Be sure to measure from the casting
surface, not the rubber gasket surface.


LONG SHOT: Does the engine still spark just after it quits??
 
  #11  
Old 08-19-07, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by repair_guy View Post
Does the engine make a "whish"sound coming from the head area that would indacate a blown head gasket?

Not at all, Everything looks fine. I may be too hung up on overfilling the oil to look at something else be the cause (guilt trip). What's starting to make me wonder a bit it that this all started yesterday morning after the oil change. No mater what I try now all it does is the same thing, stall. After I pulled the filler cap / valve cover on the head off last night it ran for a good minute and I listened for any unusual sounds, ran normal then died again. Since then same thing, dies after a second. To me It sounds much more like carb or electrical? I did pull the oil filler cap off and when the engine runs for that 1 second there is a lot of air pressure coming from the cap, would that be normal?


and while two compresson checks would show a lot,cylinder,piston/ring condention or valves.
I still think that it is in the fuel system.We've already ruled out the fuel pump/lines,Fuel Shut-off Solenoid,and the fuel cap.(make sure that you've got clean fuel in the tank and then Next thing would be to see where the carb. adjustment (H & L) screws are setting.Both should be 1-1/2 from lightly seated.If this doesn't do it,take the top of carb off and inspect the float and inlet needle/seat under the float and clean.The correct float height adjustment is 22 mm
(0.86 in.), measured from the float bottom to the
air horn casting. Adjust the float height by
carefully bending the tab that is located on the float right on top of the inlet needle.

Be sure to measure from the casting
surface, not the rubber gasket surface.

Last week before the oil overfill I did fill the gas tank from the same tank that I had been filling it from, a old heavy plastic 20 gallon tank that I've been using for years. That gas is maybe 2 months old and the tank is empty now. Today I did drain about 2 gallong out of the tractor thruough the gas filter and that was no help. Maybe I'll try draining the tractor tank dry and try fresh gas but I really doubt that will help.

I can play with the card adjustments but it was running great before the first time it stalled, then ran great for about a minute again last night. Float is sounding like a good possabilty.


LONG SHOT: Does the engine still spark just after it quits??
I reall dont know, I didnt think about spark much being I see the fuel stop as it stalls. I didn't mention that I also replace the plugs when I did the oil overfill. The plugs I pulled out were champion rc12yc, and they looked tired. I replaced them with NGK V-power FR4 which are a replacement for the Champion Premium Gold 2071 that the owners manual says are used on the pro series engines. How would I check spark if it only runs for a second then stalls?

Thanks repair-guy for taking the time to help!!

Gary
 
  #12  
Old 08-20-07, 01:47 AM
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Well,this gasoline that their making these days doesn't stay good enough to run in a single cylinder engine but about 30 days,if that.You can "smell" it when it goes bad.And in time it varnishes the inside of the carb. up,stopping up the small holes inside.While cleaning the carb.might as well replace the fuel filter too.
And just to be on the safe side,smell the motor oil also.If the inlet needle inside the carb.is messed up as I mentioned earlyer,the oil sump is going to have gas in it.You'll have to change the oil again after you fix the needle that is.And I bet that's what is wrong since you say that there is a lot of air pressure coming from the oil fill cap.
 
  #13  
Old 08-20-07, 03:27 AM
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It certainly appears that you have a fuel starvation issue but you need to be sure you don't have any other trouble. You should test the ignition strength by way of an inline spark tester on each cylinder. Then, check each cylinder's compression using a compression tester. If each of these areas are good and since it appears your fuel pump is OK and the fuel solenoid is OK then it is time to remove and recondition the carburetor using a genuine Kohler rebuild kit. Post back with your exact engine model and specification numbers and I can advise you which Kohler kit to purchase at your local Kohler repair/parts shop.
 
  #14  
Old 08-20-07, 02:32 PM
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I can advise you which Kohler kit to purchase at your local Kohler repair/parts shop.[/QUOTE]


Model is ch20s
spec # is 64549
serial # 2800710681
Family skh624u1g2ra

Thanks, I'll call around tomorrow for the rebuild kit
 
  #15  
Old 08-20-07, 06:44 PM
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I pulled the top of the carb off today, the gas level looked like the float is working fine. I also have a diagram of the carb in front of me. Does the slow speed jet and the Jet just pull out of the carb bodies? In order for me to get the fuel shut off solenoid off I need to remove the carb lower body off the manifold so as to clear the shroud around the engine. Is the main jet under the solenoid or does the solenoid just mount where the main jet was? I'm thinking of just taking slow speed jet and the jet next to it off and soaking in gumout then blowing them out, then blowing out the port where the idle speed adjusting screw is.

I keep the engine running for a short while today by spraying gas into the carb from a spray bottle. I would think it's safe to assume that my spark and compression are fine if it ran this way?

Like I had said earlier I unplugged the solenoid yesterday and tried to start the motor and the engine wouldn't start at all, plugged the solenoid in and it ran about a second then stalled. I'm thinking I may need to test the solenoid further tomorrow. Maybe the voltage to the solenoid is dropping when it starts? or maybe the solenoid is popping open then closing?

Is there some scenario where the problems I'm have could be related to the oil overfill? I see no sign of oil anywhere in the fuel system and the engine runs fine when I spray gas into the carb. It sure would help my ego to think the oil is unrelated to the problems I'm having!

Gary
 
  #16  
Old 08-20-07, 09:15 PM
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Your problems are unrelated to the oil deal. They just coincidentally began after that occurrence. Sounds like you have a carburetion problem, possibly a fuel shutoff solenoid problem. Put a test light on the lead to the solenoid and make sure it is staying energized after the engine starts up.
 
  #17  
Old 08-21-07, 05:11 PM
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Smile Thanks!!

All's well again! I hot wired the fuel solenoid and engine ran fine. As soon as I hot wired I could hear the solenoid go on. Seems there are 2 ways the solenoid activates, off the starter circuit first then the ignition circuit takes over powering the solenoid. There are diodes to prevent back feeding the starter and run circuit. When I tested by unplugging 1 wire at the solenoid I disconnected both circuits to the solenoid which is why the engine wouldn't start at all, when I plugged it back in engine would start and run off what gas was in the manifold then stall. I traced the problem to the engine / tractor connector, most of the connector pins have 1 wire on them, but 1 pin had 2 wires on it and as a result when that pin was put into the connector at Kohler The pin never fully locked into the plastic connector, When Troy-bilt plugged their end in it pushed the pin back on the Kohler end. Made contact for 7 years by leaning against each other. When I wiggled the connector with the ignition on I could here the solenoid clicking, that's when I seen the pin backed out. Held the Pin in with needle nose pushed the connector on and I have a good connection Now.

Without All your help I would have never figured the problem out.

THANKS one and all!!!

Gary
 
  #18  
Old 08-21-07, 07:17 PM
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Glad you got it fixed!
 
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Old 08-22-07, 06:29 AM
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Good find!
If the culprit pin is not "locked" into the connector, it may be the lock is simply flattened which is easy to remedy. Remove the pin from the connector and see if there is a small "tab" or "flap" which should stick up some above the pin. If the tab is still intact you can bend it up slightly (and carefully, its fragile) so that it will again lock into the connector. If the tab is broken off, you should be able to get a similar pin at an automotive store. AMP is a common name for these connectors, however they are actually only one manufacturer.
 
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