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2 Cycle Mantis Tiller - No Start - Flooding


Xterra01's Avatar
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11-23-07, 03:34 PM   #1  
2 Cycle Mantis Tiller - No Start - Flooding

Mantis Tiller Model 7222-02-02
Kioritz 21.2 cc SV-4/B Type 1-E
Zama Carburetor

I need some help from the 2 cycle engine experts. My Mantis tiller is 6 years old. I use it 2 - 3 times per year. I run the carb dry after each use. Each winter, I clean the air filter, spark plug, and add a teaspoon of oil to the cylinder. Spark plug was replaced in 2006.

This spring, the tiller would not rev to full throttle. I removed and inspected the muffler and screen; they were not clogged. I replaced the in-tank fuel filter and cleaned the fuel line and return line with compressed air. Once these items were completed, the tiller would run at full throttle, but it was not turning the RPMs that it normally turned.

The tiller was started today (first time since spring) and it would not run at mid - full throttle. It idled fine, but would not rev. I adjusted the HS screw (approximately 1/2 turn ... limited by the plastic cap) with no change. I adjusted the LS screw (again, limited by plastic cap); no change. I returned both screws to original position.

I removed the air filter and fuel line. I sprayed automotive carb cleaner into the carb throat. I also sprayed carb cleaner into the fuel inlet (using a spare piece of fuel hose). I let it sit for 30 minutes and started the engine. It ran perfectly (even at WOT). In fact, it ran better than it has in years.

I let it cool down, sprayed it off with the water hose (like I always do) and tried to start it. It sputtered on the 4th or 5th pull, but would not start. I have not been able to start it since. It floods very badly (approximately 4 -5 pulls of the starter cord will cause gas to start dripping from the exhaust).

I'm assuming that I will need to rebuild the carburetor. Is this correct or is the carb just in need of major adjustment (via the HS/LS needles)? Why did it run perfectly for 15 - 20 minutes? Did the aerosol carb cleaner dissolve the metering diaphragm?

 
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11-23-07, 06:29 PM   #2  
In para. 4 when you said it ran perfectly, even at WOT, did you have the air filter installed ??
Why are you spraying it off with a water hose ?? I was always afraid of doing this, didn't want water to get in muffler, soak the air filter, and even get in the atmospheric vent of metering cover, plus possibility of getting coil wet.
Soaked air filter might flood engine as well as metering pin not shutting fuel off as it should.
If it doesn't run well with clean, dry air filter, I'd opt to rebuild carb.
You can download the Zama service manual for your carb from the http://www.zamacarb.com/ site. They also have a cross reference file that tells kit nums for your carb.
hope this helps,
thanks,

 
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11-23-07, 06:57 PM   #3  
If you haven't had to replace anything in 6 years, even if used very little, the fuel lines are breaking down and so are the diaphgram and other non metal parts in the carb. I would suggest getting a diaphgram/gasket kit and new fuel lines soak the carb in bath type carb cleaner then blow all holes,cracks and crevases with brake parts cleaner(it doesn't leave residue) reassemble and you will be good for another 6 years. After 6 years it is due for a treat. Have a good one. Geo

 
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11-23-07, 07:19 PM   #4  
GlenM,

Yes, when it ran perfectly, it was with the air filter and cover installed. I tilled with it for approximately 15 - 20 minutes; no problems.

I don't think the water hose is the problem; I always wash the mud, dirt off with the hose. Just to make sure there is no damage to the coil, I'll check for spark, but I'm leaning towards a problem with the carb. It is allowing way too much gas to enter the cylinder (and get blown out the exhaust port). I've owned it for several years and never saw it flood this bad; the muffler will be dripping wet after 4 - 5 pulls of the starter cord.

Excuse my ignorance, but where is the "atmospheric vent of the metering cover"?

I'm a decent home mechanic, but I've never been inside a small carburetor. I'll do some research on the Zama web site and see what I can find.

Thanks

 
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11-23-07, 08:26 PM   #5  
On a Zama carb, the vent is usually just a tiny hole in the metal cover. I doubt water entering it would interfere with engine operation. I think you dislodged some buildup inside the carb when you sprayed the cleaner into the inlet. This probaby got stuck between the inlet needle and its' seat. This would casue the flooding you have. I reccomend disassembling the carb and cleaning it, and replacing the diaphragms if needed.


"Who is John Galt?" - Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)

God bless!

 
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11-24-07, 04:30 AM   #6  
Another problem common with the Zama s, is the welch
plug comes loose inside the carb, causing it to flood as well.
It would be that, or like cheese said, the needle has a
piece of crud keeping it open.
When reinstalling the welch plugs they are concave shaped
so when in place, the top is lightly "punched" in so the
seating area spreads out and sealing. A light coat of fingernail polish, allowed to dry completely to finish. Zama
plugs can be in some bizarre shapes, not like the normal round ones.
Also, any parts for the machine can be found at an echo dealer, as the engine is an echo. Zama kits can be bought
at any mower/saw shop.

Fish

 
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11-24-07, 06:34 AM   #7  
Fish, Cheese, and Geo,

Thanks for the information. Last night, I spent about an hour looking over the Zama Service Tips and Technical Guide. I have a better understanding about diaphragm carbs now. I think you guys are correct; spraying the carb cleaner loosened some gum and deposited it under the inlet needle. Now the needle can't seat and it sucks massive amounts of gas into the intake port.

I was concerned that my aerosol carb cleaner solution had messed it up (dissolved the diaphragms or seals).

I'm going to get a carb rebuild kit and dissassemble the carb. If I goof it up, I can always just get a new or rebuilt carb (I won't need the tiller till spring). Does anyone have an illustrated "how to" for diaphragm carb dissassembly?

Also, I'm going to take a look at the welch plug. Hopefully it will be in place and sealing properly.

Thanks,
Xterra01


Last edited by Xterra01; 11-24-07 at 07:05 AM.
 
GlenM's Avatar
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11-24-07, 08:18 AM   #8  
The Technical Guide beginning page 7 shows disassembly.
thanks,

 
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01-05-08, 02:44 PM   #9  
Problem Solved

It's been over a month, but I finally had time to complete this project.

I purchased a carburetor rebuild kit (Zama RB-71) and rebuilt the carb. I disassembled the carb, cleaned all passageways with spray carb cleaner, and reassembled with new metering lever, pin, spring, inlet needle, gaskets and diaphragms. I also replaced the purge line and fuel line. I did not remove the high speed needle, low speed needle, strainer or welch plug.

The tiller runs great. Thanks for all the help and advice. This was my first carb rebuild and the advice on this page make it easier.

I highly recommend the Zama technical guide; it explains (in detail) the operation and service procedures for their carbs. Of particular importance for me: 1) the procedure for setting metering lever height, and 2) position of gaskets and diaphragms. I don't think I could have successfully completed this project without the technical guide.

Thanks,
Xterra01

 
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01-06-08, 10:52 PM   #10  
Good news! Glad you got it fixed, and thanks for the update!


"Who is John Galt?" - Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)

God bless!

 
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05-10-12, 09:08 PM   #11  
Bringing this post back from the dead, only because it's what I found when googling and couldn't find what I was looking for in another thread (but I did look around!)

I also have a flooding issue with a Zama C1U-H47 carb...I've just taken it all apart and cleaned it, replacing plug and fuel lines. My question is about the Limiter (H). How should this be set?

http://www.zamacarb.com/images/diagrams2/c1u.gif

Looking at that image, it's 51. It can only be moved a very small amount....Should it be somewhere in the middle? Currently it was pegged to one side - Could this be why it was running very rich/flooding?

Thanks in advance for any help

 
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05-10-12, 10:32 PM   #12  
The limiter keeps it from moving enough to make much of any difference. If you turn it clockwise as far as it will go, it is at the leanest setting. If it still floods, time for carb work or another carb. Ethanol fuel eats up carbs, eating through the sealant on the welch plugs and other stuff, and it may be time for a new carb.


"Who is John Galt?" - Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)

God bless!

 
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05-11-12, 08:07 AM   #13  
I haven't tried it since cleaning the carb, so that could have been the problem. I'll give a try hopefully next week and let you know. Thanks for the quick response.

 
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05-17-12, 06:26 PM   #14  
Mantis Tiller

All of the above corrections seem to have worked, but possibly one really very nagging problem will show itself again. In the Carb body, there is a very small indentation housing a VERY FINE screen. This screen is part of the carb kit, but has NO PART NUMBER. It is also very, very easily not seen when opening the plastic bag housing all the other gaskets and diaphragms. When you locate the screen, you will usually find it clogged with what resembles crud, but it must be replaced. Pry very carefully to "tip" it out of the body of the carb and when installing the new screen, use a pencil eraser to push it in, therefore not damaging the screen.
I know we continuously blame ethanol for problems and rightly so, most of these engines and various fuel exposed parts simply will not withstand the alcohol and they will break down, causing many many problems. REMEMBER, when you use ANY fuel stabilizer, you are simply adding MORE alcohol to the fuel, even if in a can, and if you use this mix, you are accellerating decomposition of the fuel exposed parts, namely the needle valve tips and the gaskets.
When you run a 2 cycle engine wide open and "purge" the fuel system to empty the fuel tank, you will deprive the engine internal parts that are lubricated with the oil mixed in the fuel, and for a very HOT few seconds, the engine is running out of fuel, it is also out of oil to lube the internal parts, and will accelerate wear on the bearings, piston, and rings. With the carburetor throttle at wide open, (engine not running), look into the throat and pull the starter rope, ignition off of course, and you will see the piston and rings pass by the opening. The oil mixed with gasoline is how you are lubricating any 2cycle engine, unless it is oil injected, on only larger engines, like outboard engines. If you are running at full throttle, at the end of the season, and run the engine out of fuel, you will cause some minor heat related problems that could haunt you later, like accelerated wear. My advice is to simply dump the tank contents back into a container, spray some WD40 into the fuel line and use the prime pump to purge, and at the same time spray into the carb opening as you pull the engine through. Make certain the intake is sealed by simply closing the choke by pulling the choke to full choke, this keeps dirt and moisture out and leave it in storage. Replace the spark plug AFTER you restart the next season to be sure the new plug doesn't foul from the residue from the WD40 or whatever lube you used.
This is kind of drawn out, but facts I feel we should share. Hope this helps.
Oh by-the-way, use some diagonal cutters and snap the limiter caps off the mix screws. Go to a base setting of about 1 1/2 turns open from closed for a starting point, and DON"T tighten them too tight when closing after setting the carb up after overhaul. It's almost impossible to hold a screw driver on the mix screws with the 2cycle engine running, just find a very small screwdriver, cut off about 2" of a plastic or rubber hose, the same size used for the ice maker in a refrigerator, slip this cut off hose over the end of the screwdriver and use it as a guide to go over the mix screws and you can adjust easily, and not have the screwdriver vibrate all over the engine!! Now I know some of you can't wait to condemn cutting off the limiter caps, but sometimes you simply can't get the adjustment you need unless you remove them. It's not a sin, they were placed there by the factory to keep us from fiddling too much with the adjustments, but the Zama carb is a really weak link in an otherwise great little tiller.

 
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