Lawnboy NO Spark - Duraforce 6.5 Gold 10552

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  #1  
Old 08-07-09, 08:55 PM
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Lawnboy NO Spark - Duraforce 6.5 Gold 10552

Looking for clues on how to fix my beloved 10552 Gold no spark.

Help - this issue is driving me crazy.

Details:
Def a no spark issue (new carb, etc, etc). Ran fine for a few weeks after new carb, then I started having this intermittent no spark issue while I was mowing (like RRRRRUNdiefor a secondRRRRRUNdeifor a second RRRRRUN...I hope you get the idea). It never totally died and needed to be restarted.

THEN, I was idiot, and against all mechanic's experience to isolate problems one-at-a-time, created either a new problem or exacerbated the old problem. I removed the stupid safety bar (that I always tied off during mowing anyway) and removed the brake. Not to fix the problem, but because I wanted it gone for long time and just figured I'd take care of that. Mower fired right up and ran the same - that is, intermittantly.

THEN (and this was after I discovered I could not shut the mower off w/o the brake without installing a switch - which I had not yet done - so I flooded it to shut it off), upon next try, it wouldn't start. Nothing I've done over the past few months has made any difference:

* Grounded the two wires attached to the brake (one looks like kill switch, other to rectifier?) since it looked like the brake assy grounded both once pulled. Interestingly, first time I started mower w/o brake it started and ran w/o these wires being grounded, but after that first time, starter wouldn't turn w/o grounding.

* Gave up and had it checked at local mower repair. confirmed no spark but wouldn't work on it (not LB service/"can't get parts" whatever).

* So I read 30yeartech's post to Chuck on this site (other thread on LB no start), and other posts on other sites, and concluded I needed a new Coil/ignition module, ordered and installed. Same deal. Nothing.

* Looks like a green wire coming out of the rectifier (white relay looking thing) and goes into the starter relay. What does it do? When I disconnect the wires going to rectifier the starter still turns fine (i say rectifier because acc to the online parts site says that's what that is, I'm not sure that is actually what the white thing next to the starter relay is).

* What else can be bad? What else can be wrong? Driving me freakin nuts! Help!
 
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  #2  
Old 08-07-09, 10:32 PM
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First off, the electrical system that controls the electric starter and battery charging are completely separate from the ignition system. There may be some switches that were activated by the engine control bail to allow the electric starter to work, but they are directly connected to the ignition module.

What part did you replace? The ignition module for your engine shows to be a Toro/Lawnboy part number 99-2911. The wire that plugs into the module needs to be open in order for there to be spark. If it's grounded the module will not produce any ignition spark.

All the wires going to the rectifier are strictly for the alternator and are only used to keep the battery charged.
 
  #3  
Old 08-08-09, 12:40 PM
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Thank you very much for replying. Ok...
Yes 99-2911 is new part. And yes, I had erred in my re-engineering by grounding the module cable. I have spark now (which means I may not have needed new module) but still no start. Not even "trying" or hiccuping or nothing.

The spark is there but white/yellowish, not fat blue spark that is familiar to me when working on cars or motorcycles. Is that ok/normal?

My new theory is old/bad gas? Not sure how old but guessing over 6 months old. I always add Sta-bil when mixing gas and it's supposed to last a year it says. Not true? Never had/have a problem with Sta-bil-ized many months "old" gas with all my 50:1 2 stoke stuff (2 echoes, 1 ryobi).

ps My "plan" for the re-engineering is - and I have a switch already installed awaiting wires - "on" (circuit closed) would turn OFF engine and "off" (circuit open) to run.
 
  #4  
Old 08-08-09, 04:22 PM
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Try shutting off your fuel to the carburetor, take out the plug and with full throttle/no choke, spin it off about ten times to purge all fuel from the cylinder. Then add a tablespoon of gas through the plug hole and try to start it with half throttle. If it tries, hook everything back up and see if it'll run for you.

Your spark should be bright blue, but you may have to work with what you have if you have installed a new module. Just make sure it's installed correctly and well grounded.

Your on/off switch should close to ground the ignition and kill the engine.
 
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Old 08-08-09, 06:05 PM
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marbobj,
thx for reply. 30yrtech replied to me as well on a diff site and also suggested to purge old gas, repl w/ fresh gas, remove filt and tilt mower and hit prime 50x to get old gas outta carb.

Which I did to no avail.

Also suggested the tsp of fresh gas to prime eng but no details (which I just asked about on other site) so thx for more clues as far as yes, dump staight into cylinder, and where to have throttle handle positioned (that was part of my qq since seemed like leaving on choke would surely flood the thing). I will try this again with your suggestions and let you know.

Spark still seems really weak. I was looking for blue too. Any tips to make SURE i have plug grounded well when checking?

Other:
Module is two bolts and a wire. How can I possibly screw up this install? i.e. your comment to make sure grounded well (how to check?) and installed correctly

On/off switch - got it, all over that. Once it starts, I'll just install new ground wire AND module wire to switch; switch "ON" = kill switch, switch "OFF" (i.e. No ground) = run.
 
  #6  
Old 08-08-09, 06:27 PM
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Ok, I tried your suggestion. Nothing. Did not even try to fire. Details of what I tried in case of error: disconnected gas hose at tank (too hard to get at carb side), flipped tank over and plugged hose to carb w golf tee (even tho wasn't leaking....but now I'm thinking the hose is full of gas isn't it?)

Anyway, removed plug, set lever to "Fast" and cranked way more than 10x....probably 50x. Dumped teespoon of fresh gas in, repl plug/wire, and cranked again. Nothing. Again cranked 4 or 5 times for 10 seconds at a time.

thought on this suggestion: carb atomizes fuel (i.e. vapor spray) going into cylinder, dumping raw fuel is not atomized. How can this work? Why can this work?

Next????

ps here's my last post to other site b4 i just tried your suggestion:

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Still no start / not even trying to fire. Yes, plug is wet.

Drained fuel tank, refilled with fresh gas (had to use Echo 2cycle oil which is all I had, should not be a problem I'm thinking). Did the 50x prime bulb / tilt w/o air filter thing about 5 or 6 times just to try to be sure. Nope. After first two 50x carb "purgings", I tried the prime with tsp of fresh gas as suggested. I may have did this wrong - I dumped tsp of gas straight into cylinder w plug removed (I hope that is what was meant...maybe not?).

Ok, the battery's back on the charger from all this useless cranking. What to try next?

Couple thoughts:
* Am I flooding the engine with the 50x prime technique? Should I NOT have the speed lever on choke then? I'm thinking not. Should it be on Fast? Slow? What?

* Quite sure that dumping a tsp of gas into cyl floods the thing so I tried cranking on Fast, Slow and then Choke (just in case). Nada.

* I triple checked for spark before puttin back on charger. Yes, it is getting spark.

* Does the intermittant running/dieing (in post, before this drama) point to some other problem besides the ignition module perhaps? In other words, my question is: is intermittant ignition ONLY caused by a module going bad?

Again, thanks for everyone's help. The madness continues (but I refuse to surrender!)

Andy
 
  #7  
Old 08-08-09, 06:54 PM
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I think an answer to this qq posted previously (but jumbled in a bunch of other stuff) is KEY:

Does the intermittant running/dieing (in post, before this drama) point to some other problem besides the ignition module perhaps? In other words, my question is: is intermittant ignition ONLY caused by a module going bad?

What is the answer??
 
  #8  
Old 08-08-09, 07:47 PM
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Let me give you information that will cover alot of your questions.

What you're doing with the purging of the fuel from the cylinder by disconnecting your fuel source (i.e. the carburetor fuel by emptying the carb and disconnecting the tank) is to git rid of a flooded condition in the cylinder. Then by having the carb empty you are removing the carburetor and any of it's potential problems from the equation. Adding the fuel directly into the cylinder is essentially handfeeding the engine and substituting for the carburetor.

When doing this have the throttle fully open, but no choke. When you try to start it, use half throttle, no choke.

Fuel carries with it a vapor at all times and that vapor will ignite when handfeeding the engine.

There are some modules that can be installed upside down = won't work that way.

An intermittent ignition problem with the kill wire disconnected, the flywheel set on key, and a good plug is pretty much conclusively a bad module. There are some ignitions that have the points and condensers (prior to 1986) and those that include an igniter. When either of these other components are included you normally won't have a module but a coil. The module includes the coil in its own application.

If any of these other components are failing you can have an ignition problem.

Once you hook the kill wire back up to the mower switch circuit, the intermittent ignition problem can be in a number of other locations. This is why you trouble shoot a no start with the kill wire disconnected as a starting point.

At this point I believe you have a very flooded engine.
 
  #9  
Old 08-08-09, 08:45 PM
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Thx for wisdom. Makes sense. Flooded totally makes sense, assuming module was bad to begin with (gas, gas, gas, no spark), then with good module (if that is true) and BAD gas, again, tons of bad non-igniting gas and spark doesn't matter.

So now, presumeably, if spark is ok and gas is ok, with engine totally flooded, it won't start or even try to fire. I've run into flooded engines many many times over past 30 years with cars/bikes. Current condition is consistent EXCEPT that usually a flooded engine will at least be TRYING to start, esp is you mess with the choke. Which I did.

I will let sit overnight to allow fuel to evaporate which should and typically does cure flooded-ness and try again in the morning after battery is charged up again.

BUT...

Why the heck isn't this thing even TRYING to fire?? Esp if I have good spark, which I'm still not convinced I do have.

What "other components" can be "failing"? And how can I test them?
 
  #10  
Old 08-09-09, 05:54 AM
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There are no other components (barring an igniter) if the flywheel is aligned on the key on the crank and the kill wire is disconnected. With a good spark and a dry cylinder with a small amount of fuel you should get a spark.

However, on a two stroke engine, compression is more critical than on a four stroke because of the problems the blowby causes in the crankcase. So compression could be a problem.

Also, some of the primers in a two stroke will feed the carburetor with a spurt of fuel when you depress the bulb. The small Ryobis are like that. Others are set up differently.

When you did the 50x primer thing, did you have the carb line disconnected from the tank? If that primer drops fuel directly into the carb, you may have shot a lot of gas into the crankcase = severe flooding = takes a while to clean it out.

Don't count on a severely flooded two stroke to try to fire. If the crankcase is filled with fuel it will constantly flood the combustion chamber with excess fuel. You can crank on that thing forever to get a fire.
 
  #11  
Old 08-09-09, 06:14 AM
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I jumped over to the other site where you had the posts back from 30 year tech. The technique he described to you required the mower to be tilted back to allow the fuel you were pumping into the carb to drain out through the air filter. If that wasn't done you may have flooded your crankcase.

Also, attempting to crank the engine with the choke on or if the air filter was saturated with fuel, flooding would have been more severe.
 
  #12  
Old 08-09-09, 06:19 AM
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I think Marbobj has you on the right track... You also said you had to choke it to get it to turn off after you disconnected the engine brake.... Remove the muffler & check the seal in the bottom of the crankshaft to make sure it's still pressed into the crankcase... I've had two this year with both the top & bottom seal blown out of place.... I'm thinking a backfire from a bad module caused it... With the muffler off, check the cylinder & piston for any scoring,,,Also make sure the air gap between the flywheel & the module is adjusted to 0.010" (about a buisness card thick.) Have you checked the flywheel keyto see if it's sheared yet???? Roger
 
  #13  
Old 08-12-09, 07:49 PM
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update oldest to newest. the drama is not quite done yet.
apologies for cornfusion and many thx for all the advice (and yes I did have mower tilted btw):

Ken's Mobile Services <[email protected]> to [email protected]ug 8
Andy,

Attached is a service manual for Dura-Force engines. Maybe it will shed some light on your particular issue.

Keep me updated either by email or on the forum and I will try to help you get it figured out.

- Show quoted text -

Ken


to_e_eng.pdf
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[email protected] to Ken's Mobile Services <[email protected]>Aug 9
Very helpful. Will study. Too embarrassed to post anything on either site today as it seems I have confused everyone.

Quite convinced fuel now is good. Sat overnight so even if I massively flooded it, fuel should have evaportated. Still no start today, not even trying (no change). Only thought from motorcycle mech days is that if I fouled the plug, it needs replaced or cleaned?

Anyway, thank you so much for all of your help! I'll let you know what's what tomorrow.
Andy

Kens Mobile Services <[email protected]> to [email protected]ug 9
Andy,

I can pretty much follow the posts, but unless you go to both sites it could be confusing to someone who has not been to the other site and put them all in logical order...[edit to shorten by pogany]...

I really don't think you have an ignition issue since you can see spark and we know that you have fresh fuel. I would concentrate on determining that you have decent compression, that the top and bottom crankshaft seals are in place, and that the exhaust is not restricted.

Feel free to post any questions or email me directly and hopefully we can get your engine figured out.

- Show quoted text -

Ken

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[email protected] to Kens Mobile Services <[email protected]>11:31am
Ken,
Eureka (sort of)! The answer to my question somewhere buried in the posts of "how could I possible screw up the CD install?" was in the PDF manual you sent me. Not gapped to .010 (I didn't even know it was adjustable). I only have a .008 feeler gauge and it's not curved but figured a looser than usual fit would do. Fired right up! So the spark WAS weak after all to my earlier hunch. So thank you VERY much for that.

Now here's the problem (and I will post all this to both sites later today....I have to run out now for a few hours): Fired right up BUT it's back to RRRRRRquit for secRRRRRRquit for a secRRRRRRquit for a sec and then it died after about 30 seconds of this. Waited 10 min, tried again, fired right up, same thing except this time didn't die after 2 minutes of RRRRRRRquitRRRRRRquit etc so I went ahead shut it off.

So I am right back to where I was b4 removing the brake.

Thoughts??



Kens Mobile Services <[email protected]> to [email protected]11:39am
Sounds like the carburetor is either not feeding fuel, or the throttle is not opening far enough. Did you set the governor and attach the spring to the throttle control when the carburetor was installed?

- Show quoted text -

Ken

[email protected] wrote:


[email protected] to Kens Mobile Services <[email protected]>6:14pm
I did not install the carb but I will say that when I got it home, the thing ran absolutely perfectly for several months before this condition.

I was thinking that a lot of times a problem is the result of the last thing that was fixed/replaced/messed with. From the work order at the time:
"brass jets and emulsion pipe were corroded also needle and seat [were corroded, I'm assuming. Carb was flooding fuel onto deck is why I took it in]"
"carb overhaul kit, reassembled from parts a complete new body with all fixtures....etc...etc....(non carb stuff)". Carb kit part # 107-4607

I have messed with a few car carbs a little but I am certainly no expert. I will thoroughly read the carb section of the manual you sent me.

Meanwhile, how to test for govenor and (could either have come loose after the carb rebuild maybe?).

Again, thanks SO much for your help. I will post all this onto both sites.
 
  #14  
Old 08-20-09, 03:57 PM
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An item to check is the engine brake cable at the handle bar. This model is known to pull out through the plastic retainer. Toro made a replacement for this problem. I have three of these models given to me with this problem and just replace the clip that retains the clip on the handle bar. PN 106-2662 at your Toro shop. If the brake cable does not pull the brake off far enough you get no spark. I even got a unit that the party thought the engine was froze.
 
  #15  
Old 08-23-09, 07:49 PM
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Resolved! Thanks to all

Guys,
Just to close this out, airleak at base of carb was the cause of the surging. The mounting screw on one side was very loose. Tightened up the screws and the thing runs perfectly. Thanks again for everyone's help. All the best...
andy

ps Camino - I removed all the brake stuff and replaced it with a simple $2 automotive switch that I drilled a hole thru the green plastic engine cover, installed and wired in. Works great(I had the same prob you described and had to pay to have it diagnosed/repaired B4 I figured out that I could just delete the whole works).
 
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