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log spliter


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09-17-09, 05:39 PM   #1  
log spliter

im trying to get a log spliter my son bought, that need a engine love joy and hydralic line. got the job complete. i need to get the air out of the system and seem to do it.. is there a trick to it? every time i start using the spliter it stops the engine..I would like to send some photos but dont know how..

 
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09-17-09, 06:44 PM   #2  
To get the air out of a normal hydraulic system just run it and keep the hydraulic reservoir full of oil.

If the engine is killing every time you put a load on it, though, I suspect the problem is in the engine (likely the carburetor being varnished) and not with the hydraulic lines having air in them. I think I would disconnect the engine from the pump and try to get it running well, then hook it back up.

 
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09-17-09, 07:05 PM   #3  
Posted By: marbobj To get the air out of a normal hydraulic system just run it and keep the hydraulic reservoir full of oil.

If the engine is killing every time you put a load on it, though, I suspect the problem is in the engine (likely the carburetor being varnished) and not with the hydraulic lines having air in them. I think I would disconnect the engine from the pump and try to get it running well, then hook it back up.
Thanks but we tryed that engine runs good unhooked from the pump.. it hapens when i turn the valve on for the hydulic..fluid to go thru the lines . i did put a new hose on.. when we bought it the guy said all it needed was a hose and love joy.. i found a hold pump he must had on it one time.. could it be the new pump he put on is to big??

 
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09-17-09, 07:24 PM   #4  
Please post model and serial number please.

 
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09-17-09, 07:32 PM   #5  
Posted By: Airman Please post model and serial number please.
this is a home made spliter.. how do i post a picture?

 
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09-17-09, 07:50 PM   #6  
After you select Post Reply you will see a paper clip top right. When you select it you will get choices of type item you want to attach. Select appopriate type. Photos are often "jpeg".

 
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09-18-09, 07:16 AM   #7  
By what you're describing the pump isn't too big, but the flow of the fluid through the lines is blocked. If it isn't killing until you try to move the cylinder, the pump is likely Ok and the problem is in the valve body or you have the lines routed incorrectly. Will the cylinder move at all in any position on the valve?

Do you just have the three position valve = forward, back, neutral? If so, is the engine killing in all three positions?

Lovejoy is a manufacturer or distributor of hydraulic components - is the valve what you're referring to as the love joy.

 
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09-18-09, 04:45 PM   #8  
Posted By: marbobj By what you're describing the pump isn't too big, but the flow of the fluid through the lines is blocked. If it isn't killing until you try to move the cylinder, the pump is likely Ok and the problem is in the valve body or you have the lines routed incorrectly. Will the cylinder move at all in any position on the valve?

Do you just have the three position valve = forward, back, neutral? If so, is the engine killing in all three positions?

Lovejoy is a manufacturer or distributor of hydraulic components - is the valve what you're referring to as the love joy.
thanks for trying to help me.. i cant find the paper clip airman is refering to.. i di see insert image but it hpp. i do have picures om my picture file on my cp i took, but i can get them here. i fooled with the spliter all day and checked every line.. the valve that makes the cylinder move works forward and reverse, only if i have the valve on the pump part way open. if i open the valve all the way the engine stops with a screech.. the love joy conects the engine shaft to the pump shaft.. im beginning to wonder if this is the right pump for this or just some old type thats not made for it.. heres the info off the pump..280262 202p1351611 vane pump atentee pat #2544 vickers.. thanks

 
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09-18-09, 05:43 PM   #9  
A hydraulic pump in that application works by pumping a certain volume at a pressure depending on the design of the pump and the rpms of the engine. That pressure is regulated by a pressure relief valve that allows everything the cylinder and its application isn't using to cycle back to the reservoir.

If that relief valve isn't working, for whatever reason, the engine will kill as soon as the pressure backs up against the pump. Since we're talking about hydraulic fluid with no air in it, it would immediately kill the engine.

Your problem likely isn't that the pump isn't doing its job in pumping, but the path for the fluid from the relief to get back to the reservoir is blocked.

 
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09-18-09, 06:08 PM   #10  
Posted By: marbobj A hydraulic pump in that application works by pumping a certain volume at a pressure depending on the design of the pump and the rpms of the engine. That pressure is regulated by a pressure relief valve that allows everything the cylinder and its application isn't using to cycle back to the reservoir.

If that relief valve isn't working, for whatever reason, the engine will kill as soon as the pressure backs up against the pump. Since we're talking about hydraulic fluid with no air in it, it would immediately kill the engine.

Your problem likely isn't that the pump isn't doing its job in pumping, but the path for the fluid from the relief to get back to the reservoir is blocked.
Where is the pressure relief valve? how would i check this?

 
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09-18-09, 07:14 PM   #11  
Typically it's in the pump itself on the output side, naturally. However, a system can be designed with an external relief which directs the pressure in relief back to the reservoir by a line or a porting in an external control valve mounted on the reservoir. That would have the relief valve integrated into the valve body. It's function would be the same as a relief in the pump body. I've seen it done a number of ways.

There's just not a system that relies upon a controlled pressure that doesn't have the relief valve to regulate it.

 
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09-18-09, 08:32 PM   #12  
If you disconnected the line going to the control valve body from the pump and directed it into the fluid reservoir, I would bet the engine wouldn't kill. Since killing the engine is associated with opening the valve allowing flow to the cylinder controls, the pressure relief could very well be in that valve you are opening.

If you can get some pictures of what you have put together, it would give us an idea of how to help you more.

 
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09-18-09, 09:46 PM   #13  
Posted By: marbobj If you disconnected the line going to the control valve body from the pump and directed it into the fluid reservoir, I would bet the engine wouldn't kill. Since killing the engine is associated with opening the valve allowing flow to the cylinder controls, the pressure relief could very well be in that valve you are opening.

If you can get some pictures of what you have put together, it would give us an idea of how to help you more.
I will try unhooking the line from the pump to the control valve.. The valve i was refering to is at the pump.. theres inlet hose with valve (shut off) to pump from reservoir. then a hose out to control valve.. (operates cylinder) then hose from control valve to back cylinder , and another hose to front ov cylinder. then hose from control valve to reservior..the hose i replaced is from the outlet of the pump to the control valve.. I can put pictures on other sites but cant seem to do it here..

 
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09-19-09, 06:20 AM   #14  
The hose from the control valve to the cylinder is taking the displaced fluid from the front/back of the two way on a return to the reservoir.

The hose to the control valve is obviously the input pressure/volume for the cylinder.

Within the control valve is porting to direct the fluid from the two part application of the cylinder to a common port for input and return.

The shutoff at the reservoir to the pump is apparently just to control leakage when not in use. That must be the function of the shutoff from the pump to the feed to the control valve. both valves may just be for dismantling or storage.

If the pump doesn't kill with the valve turned on from reservoir to pump and it kills when you open the valve going to the control valve, there is either something in that valve sticking or missing.

If you can post pictures to other sites, put them on and post links to those pics here.

 
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09-19-09, 09:09 AM   #15  
from the reervior to the pump theres a ball valve i can only open this valve part way or it will kill the engine. the other hose from the pump to the control valve has no valve. the only place out where im at is tractor suppy and they have a 2 stage pump for $165.00 plus tax. I hate to buy the pump and its not the cause.. check your pm please. thanks

 
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09-19-09, 10:36 AM   #16  
OK, you can't feed the pump or you get the kill. The reason is back to the relief valve. As I'm understanding this now, if this splitter was put together with a number of parts picked up individually, the pump should have the relief built in and that could be sticking. However, if it was part of a system, it could have had the relief in another component.

I'm wondering if the fella you bought it from had it working right or just manipulated the valve you have to run at partially open?

If the latter is the case you can fix it by inserting a pressure control valve in the output of the pump and directing the flow from it back to the reservoir. It would be a little better if the relief was built into the pump and you wouldn't have to do the extra plumbing, etc.

We need to look at this ball valve you're opening to see if that is more than just a path to feed the pump.

As far as investing in a two stage pump, what is the pressure on the pump you have now and what is the diameter of the cylinder?

 
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09-19-09, 11:27 AM   #17  
Posted By: marbobj OK, you can't feed the pump or you get the kill. The reason is back to the relief valve. As I'm understanding this now, if this splitter was put together with a number of parts picked up individually, the pump should have the relief built in and that could be sticking. However, if it was part of a system, it could have had the relief in another component.

I'm wondering if the fella you bought it from had it working right or just manipulated the valve you have to run at partially open?

If the latter is the case you can fix it by inserting a pressure control valve in the output of the pump and directing the flow from it back to the reservoir. It would be a little better if the relief was built into the pump and you wouldn't have to do the extra plumbing, etc.

We need to look at this ball valve you're opening to see if that is more than just a path to feed the pump.

As far as investing in a two stage pump, what is the pressure on the pump you have now and what is the diameter of the cylinder?
the cylinder is about 1 inch. now the line from the resivior to the pump is 3/4 and the line from the pump to the control is 1/2.. maybe this line needs to be 3/4 also? i have no gauge to check the pressure.. i will buy one in need be.the guy i bought is from said he had used it and split wood. all it needed was a love joy(coupler) ang engine mounted, and the 1/2 hose from the pump to the control..but people now days lie. i believe that they put this pump on there and blew the hose . i talked to one guy that deals with hydraulics that said if its not a 2 stage pump it wont work..they want $100.00 call just to come look at it..


Last edited by cf1; 09-19-09 at 11:53 AM.
 
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09-19-09, 11:47 AM   #18  
Have you split wood before? What kind of wood are you splitting?

Don't buy a gauge. A one inch cylinder is more of a field mower cylinder - to lift the mower. That's not one that will split a lot of wood.

I think we need to get a look at this thing before you put a lot of money in more parts.

 
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09-19-09, 11:59 AM   #19  
Posted By: marbobj Have you split wood before? What kind of wood are you splitting?

Don't buy a gauge. A one inch cylinder is more of a field mower cylinder - to lift the mower. That's not one that will split a lot of wood.

I think we need to get a look at this thing before you put a lot of money in more parts.
were spliting oak and maple. i did have a spliter like this but it had a bigger cylinder.. its basicaly the same set up as i had.. the old timers made these spliters before the store bought come out.. this is the original set up to me and it will take care of bussiness if i can figure out the problem.. im leaning toward the pump. it kida looks like some mickey mouse thing maybe from the back of a tractor..

 
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09-19-09, 12:16 PM   #20  
I'm afraid the problem is bigger than that. The one cylinder will split maple (maybe 4 inch), but oak will be too much for it. A three inch cylinder with a single wedge and 1800 psi hyd pressure will split the oak up to 6 inches.

What you have there, if it is all built around that one inch cylinder, won't handle a two stage pump with 3500 psi. The ram on the cylinder (if under 1 inch) would likely buckle.

You can get what you have to work to some extent, if the relief on the hyd pressure is worked out. That pump is a vane pump - if it were from a farm tractor it would likely be gear job.

I got your pictures, that isn't a bad setup, but the cylinder is too small for 6 inch oak. Let me look at that pump a little.

 
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09-19-09, 12:39 PM   #21  
Your relief for that setup would be in the main control valve bank. If you disconnected the line at the main control valve fitting for the line that goes back to the reservoir, you should have hydraulic fluid coming out of the port with the control lever in neutral.

If you do have the flow and the cylinder is moving at the other positions, then go back to your thinking that the pump is too big for your engine. Along this way of thinking is: you have the relief and it is working, but it holds back enough pressure in the line coming into the main control valve that the engine can't push the volume of fluid of that size pump.

In reading back through your posts, I get the impression this isn't the pump the splitter had on it before.

First check for the flow out of that port.


Last edited by marbobj; 09-19-09 at 02:42 PM.
 
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09-19-09, 12:54 PM   #22  
Posted By: marbobj Your relief for that setup would be in the main control valve bank. If you disconnected the line at the main control valve fitting for the line that goes back to the reservoir, you should have hydraulic fluid coming out of the port with the control lever in neutral.
i did unhook the hose from the control valve to the resivior and there is fluid going back to it..im not worrid about the cylinder it should do the job. it takes pressure to split wood, thats whats its all about. right now i cant control the pressure. when evey thing is proper the control valve should regulate your pressure when spliting when in neutrell it should drop the pressure. my old spliter was about the same, i split 5 cords of wood a season, and had a 5 hp and when it blew i put an 8 hp on it and sold it in one day,, people come from far to buy it and its still spliting wood. i now burn coal i use 3 tons a season and love it. of course my wood was free. i think im going to try and sell it, and buy the boy a store bought, i cant afford it but im too old to fool with it.. thanks bob

 
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09-19-09, 02:56 PM   #23  
With the flow from the line going back to the reservoir, it looks like what you thought may very well be the case. The pump is pushing large a volume for the small engine to handle it. When you cut it down with the input valve it drops the volume the pump can push, the pressure builds less, and the the engine can still turn the pump over.

You could always put a reduction gear box on it (more expense), or a bigger motor or an inline relief before the fluid gets to the main control valve, but with the latter all you're really doing is the same thing as turning the valve on part way.

I typically use a 3 inch cylinder with a 30 inch ram for a log splitter. It looks like that cylinder is a two inch and if it splits what you have to split you can't ask for more than that.

I believe what I would do is sell the pump and put on a lower volume pump that puts out the same pressure. That would still work the splitter (just a little slower) and the fluid wouldn't back up the pressure into the pump.

Anyone wanting a hydraulic pump would jump on that one you have. In fact, I just checked EBAY and a small pump ( 3 gpm) is on there now for $50.00. One just like your Vickers is going for a little more. You could just trade it off and have yours going for hardly any extra money.


Last edited by marbobj; 09-19-09 at 03:15 PM.
 
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09-20-09, 08:13 AM   #24  
Posted By: marbobj With the flow from the line going back to the reservoir, it looks like what you thought may very well be the case. The pump is pushing large a volume for the small engine to handle it. When you cut it down with the input valve it drops the volume the pump can push, the pressure builds less, and the the engine can still turn the pump over.

You could always put a reduction gear box on it (more expense), or a bigger motor or an inline relief before the fluid gets to the main control valve, but with the latter all you're really doing is the same thing as turning the valve on part way.

I typically use a 3 inch cylinder with a 30 inch ram for a log splitter. It looks like that cylinder is a two inch and if it splits what you have to split you can't ask for more than that.

I believe what I would do is sell the pump and put on a lower volume pump that puts out the same pressure. That would still work the splitter (just a little slower) and the fluid wouldn't back up the pressure into the pump.

Anyone wanting a hydraulic pump would jump on that one you have. In fact, I just checked EBAY and a small pump ( 3 gpm) is on there now for $50.00. One just like your Vickers is going for a little more. You could just trade it off and have yours going for hardly any extra money.
bob.. my son is set on keeping this splitter. he said he talked to a guy out his way and the man said its the control valve that would do it.. he said the pump cant do its thing because the valve is bad.. is there a way to rebuild the control valve? or should i pick one up at tractor supply.. out where im at i can used hydraulic cylinders for $50 or $60 bucks. but right at this time i know no where to get a used control valve...ken

 
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09-20-09, 08:38 AM   #25  
It would depend on what the fella is talking about being bad in the valve, Ken. The only thing I can point to as causing that problem is the relief not letting the excess pressure go back to the reservoir. Other than the volume of the pump, there is the relief in the control valve, and the size of the return line and return port. It looks like that line is a lot smaller than the feed line.

As far as replacing with used parts, I would never hesitate to put a used cylinder on something like that, but a used control valve - I would stay away from.

The relief part is normally only spring loaded and the pressure pushes the valve up and clears a port that lets the fluid go back. That in particular is something I would just tear it apart to see why it isn't working. It's not too complicated to work on.

The parts you can't do a lot with are those with excessive tolerances where the control valve itself has slide back and forth so much the bore has worn and it can't seal and control the fluid flow like it should. For something like that you just about have to replace the control.

It's a little difficult to evaluate things from a distance like this, but I can tell you from looking at your pictures that's a good little splitter. I don't know about the smaller cylinder, but it may do the job for you.

 
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09-20-09, 09:12 AM   #26  
I just checked on EBAY for some spool valves (four port) that will work fine on what you have there and they're going for around $30.00 for new ones. If you want to replace that control that's a possibility.

 
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09-20-09, 12:37 PM   #27  
Posted By: marbobj I just checked on EBAY for some spool valves (four port) that will work fine on what you have there and they're going for around $30.00 for new ones. If you want to replace that control that's a possibility.
well i took a ride down to the kid that sold me this splitter.he wasnt home at the time, but his neighbor said the boys dad built the splitter, and it had a 5 hp tecumceh motor. when he passed the boy let it rust up for a few years and the motor was shot. so i tend to believe that tis pump and valve and cylinder are original. i sanded it and painted it up but the only thing i replaced was a love joy and hose the same size 1/2 inch. and a added a 5 hp brigs eingine. im going into town tomorrow and theres a old timer that works on hydrulics and i will pick his brain.. im all for buying a new one..ken

 
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09-20-09, 03:19 PM   #28  
He may come up with a fix for you on it. Maybe there is some rust that got passed on to the control valve. When you get it working, post back what you came up with, if you will. That way we know what to do the next time.

Take care and the best of luck on this thing.

I grew up with stuff like that in Southern, Ia. We cut a lot of wood and sold it off the farm. We would cut it to length with chainsaws and block it up with the buzz saw on the front of our H Farmall.

A lot of people burned coal back then, but it's pretty well gone now.

 
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09-20-09, 03:27 PM   #29  
Posted By: marbobj He may come up with a fix for you on it. When you get it working, post back what you came up with, if you will. That way we know what to do the next time.

Take care and the best of luck on this thing.

I grew up with stuff like that in Southern, Ia. We cut a lot of wood and sold it off the farm. We would cut it to length with chainsaws and block it up with the buzz saw on the front of our H Farmall.

A lot of people burned coal back then, but it's pretty well gone now.
i have bee on another site with a lot of folks out your way, trying to help..if you want i will send you the link..i will keep you advised on this.. but your right its in the valve or the pump..this guy tomorrow should know.. thanks ken

 
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09-20-09, 03:46 PM   #30  
cylinder

A 1 in. cylinder is too small. I built a splitter several years ago using a 3.5 in, cylinder and 8 hp. engine. It would split(or tear apart sweet gum).

 
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09-21-09, 12:26 PM   #31  
Posted By: Wirepuller38 A 1 in. cylinder is too small. I built a splitter several years ago using a 3.5 in, cylinder and 8 hp. engine. It would split(or tear apart sweet gum).
just returned from the hydrulic shop...they took one look at it and said YOU NEED A 50 hp ENGINE TO RUN THAT PUMP... overall he said the splitter was built good and it has split wood but someoe had probly had tractor pto to the pump.. the hydraulic would split but the smaller the easier for them to explode.. he recomended a shield over it or get a biger hydraulic.. he also said it only take 15 tons to split wood.. alot of the splitters today are over size and stay away from the china .he has a pump 11 gpm and a bracket mount for it. he also said i shoud put a relief valve in it.. The vickers pump model v202 is a excellent pump and i should be able to sell it on ebay...so now to make a decision??????? thanks all you folks for the help . ken

 
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09-22-09, 07:44 PM   #32  
Thanks for posting back on this, cf.

However in reference to the 15 tons of wedge force needed to split wood - it figures like this:

the formula is pi(3.14) X Radius Squared X hydraulic pressure (psi)

3.14 (which is pi) X 1.5 x 1.5 (which is the radius on a 3" cylinder) X the hydraulic line pressure of 3500 psi (which you would need a two stage pump to get) = 24727.5 lb or about 12.5 tons. of splitting force.

If you have the 2 inch cylinder on the splitter with 3500 psi hydraulic pressure, you would get - 3.14 X 1 X 1 X 3500 =10990 lbs of splitting force or about 5.5 tons.

 
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09-22-09, 08:11 PM   #33  
Posted By: marbobj Thanks for posting back on this, cf.

However in reference to the 15 tons of wedge force needed to split wood - it figures like this:

the formula is pi(3.14) X Radius Squared X hydraulic pressure (psi)

3.14 (which is pi) X 1.5 x 1.5 (which is the radius on a 3" cylinder) X the hydraulic line pressure of 3500 psi (which you would need a two stage pump to get) = 24727.5 lb or about 12.5 tons. of splitting force.

If you have the 2 inch cylinder on the splitter with 3500 psi hydraulic pressure, you would get - 3.14 X 1 X 1 X 3500 =10990 lbs of splitting force or about 5.5 tons.
i dont know all that but i know what he said.. this is a 3 inch cylinder and it can explode easier thand a bigger one. like i said i can replace the cylinder with a used one cheap.. but i have to get a pump.. the othere splitter i had was similar to this but the i beam was heavier and the cylinder was to.. as for the control it was basicly the same.. it was a slow return on it.. and i had two filters in the lines on it..the pump looked to be something similar to this.. there was nothing it wouldnt slit oak locust and some hickory..

 
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