toro 621e snowblower 163cc OHV tecumseh engine surging

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  #1  
Old 10-03-11, 02:17 PM
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toro 621e snowblower 163cc OHV tecumseh engine surging

Hi all,
I just purchased a new toro 621e snowblower with the 163cc OHV tecumseh engine. It started on the first pull and ran right up to full speed (no throttle control) but starts surging after a minute or two of operation. Not to the point of stalling but rather a brief drop and then right back to full speed.

I called toro and they said this was normal since there was no load on the snowblower and it should run fine when actually throwing snow.

They sounded a little uncertain though so I thought I would post this to see if someone can confirm. I have run the motor for about 60 minutes so far, 10 minutes at a time and there has been no change. Gas is brand new premium unleaded with no ethanol.

Also, does anyone know the exact model of the motor? I found an engine information tag on it that lists the engine family name of BCGPS 1631SA and eu engine family name of LC168FDS-1 but can't find these numbers referenced on the tecumseh documentation. I took the main cover off but maybe need to disassemble more to see if there is another label on the engine.

Thanks!
 
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  #2  
Old 10-03-11, 03:42 PM
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I wonder how you bought a brand new tecumseh powered snowblower when tecumseh has been out of the engine business for nearly 3 years now. Sounds like it's running lean.
 
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Old 10-03-11, 11:05 PM
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No need for premium fuel in these,,Just use regular grade.. If you can post the model & serial #s from the ID tag, The Pros can look up what you have.. I agree with Cheese, It's running lean,, & it does seem strange that you can buy a new unit with the Tecumseh engine...The #s you posted almost sound like the "Liquid Combustion Technology" engines that Stens sells,,, Post the model & serial # of the unit & someone will get you dialed in!!!... Roger
 
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Old 10-04-11, 08:25 AM
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My Bad for believing the salesman. He said the small engine division of Tecumseh was spun off and the 'Toro Premium' motors were still actually Tecumseh design/made. I was also looking at a SnoTek model with a briggs and stratton 205cc but he said they were Arien's attempt at the lower priced market and hadn't been proven yet since they were only in their second year. Wound up picking the Toro in part because they are based here in the Twin Cities.

Anyway, here are the numbers I found on an engine tag

11103140-1/2276409/1134
115-0669 11050006269

BCGPS 1631SA (epa engine family name)
LC168FDS-1 (eu engine family name)

Was trying to stay away from the chinese motors since I love my older toro lawnmower that DOES have a tecumseh.

Thanks for any help in identifying the engine. I'm also going to try calling Toro again.
 
  #5  
Old 10-04-11, 09:00 AM
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Well, a second call to Toro wasn't much help. They 'think' the drop in rpm's is the governor kicking in and out since there is no load on the engine. I then asked who actually made their engines and was put on hold for almost 10 minutes before I finally hung up.
 
  #6  
Old 10-04-11, 09:29 AM
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LCT engines are chinese clones of honda engines. I don't know if that's what you have or not. It does look like they're putting a lot of them on snowblower engines and they do have a small connection with the remnants of tecumseh by using the lauson power products distributor/dealer network to provide service and parts. I was hoping chinese engines would never get a foot hold in the US, but it looks like we're gonna have to deal with them I guess.

The surging is because the engine is running too lean. Yes, the governor is doing it, but only because it is running too lean and it has to keep revving it to keep it from stalling.
 
  #7  
Old 10-04-11, 09:49 AM
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Thanks Cheese and Roger! I finally wound up calling an authorized Toro service dealer who echoed exactly what you said. He recommended waiting until there is a snowfall and then seeing how the engine runs under load saying the majority of blowers will smooth out with no adjustments needed.

I'm still hunting for the exact make/model of engine to see what the spec's are. Halfway debating about returning the Toro and getting the SnoTek (by Ariens) single stage with the Briggs and Stratton, although I have seen some reviews about this one going through belts very quickly. Otherwise it looks good with it's 205cc motor and $499 price.
 
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Old 10-04-11, 10:07 AM
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What is the model AND serial number of the unit (the Toro numbers)? I wonder if you have a leftover, leftover unit. Knowing such, someone can find out what model-year the unit is and then figure out what specific engine you have as well. I can't speak for the Chinese engines or even the may-now-be-out LCT-produced Tecumseh's governor systems, but, the Tecumseh's (when they were actually Tecumseh) never had an issue with a governor hunt (what, in the business, we call what you have) provided you have a good, clear, clean carburetor. I think you need a carburetor cleaning and reconditioning...under warranty at an authorized Tecumseh (if that is indeed the engine you have) dealer.
 
  #9  
Old 10-04-11, 11:02 AM
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toro 621 snowblower 163cc OHV engine hunting

Thanks puey61, but I think I actually got a chinese engine, not a tecumseh variant as the salesman inferred. The Toro model number is 38452 with a 31200**** serial number. I think the Power Clear 621e is a "new" model for Toro. It is a brand new snowblower so I would hope the carb would be clean. Although, before I first fired it up I checked the plug and the gap was .021 instead of the recommended .030 so who knows if something else was assembled wrong.

The service dealer said because of EPA regulations the lean carb settings likely cause this bit of hunting and the majority of snowblowers would run fine set this way when under load. I hope he's giving me the straight scoop since I don't want to find out there IS actually a problem when there is snow and shops get swamped with sick machines.

Since the shop could get some warranty $ out of Toro I'm taking him at his word that I don't need to bring it in at this time.
 
  #10  
Old 10-04-11, 01:40 PM
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Hmmmm..... kind of an answer to the engine manufacturer anyway. Now to follow up on this company. Not sure why Toro can't provide this information

From snowblowersdirect.com:

Thank you for submitting your question.

Q: Is this R*Tek 163cc OHV engine the same one the 621 model uses? If so who actually makes this motor and what are the torque and horsepower?

A: These would be the same engines. These are Toro branded engines made by a company called Lonzin. I would not have a torque listing on these, but the HP would be around 6HP.

Thanks,
Kriss Schrader
 
  #11  
Old 10-12-11, 09:56 AM
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Although it means nothing to me, Toro lists the engine as a "LC168FDS-1". I do know that, in the past, Toro has used Suzuki engines but I don't know if this is one such. As I suggested previously, consult your local Toro shop.
 
  #12  
Old 10-14-11, 08:44 PM
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Thanks for your checking puey61. I found out it is indeed a Loncin brand Chinese engine, not the Tecumseh offshoot the salesman said Toro was using. Not what I wanted to hear but after talking with a couple of different independent repair shops I guess I'll keep the snowblower and keep my fingers crossed. They both said the hunting is normal for this engine and it should run fine under snow load which probably is not far away here in Minnesota. If it throws snow farther than Donovan McNabb's passes I should be OK.

BTW, also found out that Loncin actually makes a couple of smaller displacement engines for BMW motorcycles. Interesting and disturbing.

Thanks again
-Jim
 
  #13  
Old 11-13-11, 12:02 PM
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Toro 621e with racing engine

Interesting thread. I too just bought a Toro 621e Snow Thrower and the engine speed races up and down. I ran it for 15 minutes with no improvement, and after about 18 minutes the engine shut down. Would not restart until it cooled. Once I started it, the racing continued until I pulled the choke out approximately half way where it ran smoothly. I only had a chance to run it for 10 minutes in this condition. Will contact Toro to see what they have to say. Any thoughts on running with the choke half way out, does that cause any harm. I am more than a little dismayed that right out of the box the unit is not running smoothly. May end up returning it.
 
  #14  
Old 11-14-11, 02:14 PM
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Toro 621R Snow Blower

I'd like to add my 2-cents to the thread. I bought the Toro 621R(recoil start) from Home Depot this past Vets Day to get the 10% Vets discount. It will replace a Sears 3HP 21" single stage that has been a good machine but struggled thru last winter's snows on Long Island, so I'm "donating" it to my son in NJ. I haven't had a chance to start it up yet to check it out, but I took note of a DIYer's description of the spark plug - that his was gapped at .021" instead of the spec. .030". So I removed the shroud and pulled the plug and its gap was a tad under .030 which I fine-tuned to the proper gap. But two things about the plug: the electrodes were not aligned (I aligned them with pliers) and the plug looks inferior. Its marking is NHSP LD F7RTC -- not the NGK BPR6ES or Champion RN9YC as indicated in the User Manual. It doesn't have that finished quality that you find in American and Japanese spark plugs. Also, I couldn't find any markings on the engine to indicate its origin. But I agree that the model no., Lc168Fds-1, shown in the parts list (which was NOT enclosed with the User manual - you had to print the PDF file from the Toro web site) suggests a Chinese mfctr such as Liquid Combustion Technologies -- which may not be bad judging from several feedback comments I've seen online. So.. we'll wait and see. Incidentally, always dab some anti-seize lubricant on the plug threads before reinstalling to ensure easy removal in the future. I've always had good luck with Toro products. Hope I'm not disappointed when the snows come.
 
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Old 11-22-11, 11:20 AM
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Toro 621R (recoil start) Snow Blower

This is a continuation of my earlier comments. Finally go to start up the new machine for the first time. Followed start-up directions in manual and after a little sputtering as the gas worked its way through the carb and into the engine, she came to life. I gradually pushed in the choke as she warmed and, as some of you pointed out, the engine surged up and down, but not badly. After a few minutes the surging reduced to a sort of throbbing or pulsing action and that too smoothed out, but didn't entirely disappear. After I ran it for about 10 minutes I shut it down, waited about 2 minutes, pulled the cord and she started right up without any fuss. Again, this tell-tale slight pulsing or throbbing, but I felt that the engine was running fine. I suspect, like the Toro rep said to one of you, in time the engine will smooth out after blowing some snow. All in all, I have to say I'm very pleased. Time will tell with these Chinese made engines.
 
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Old 11-22-11, 07:36 PM
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interesting thread. as i am looking at the 621. i wonder if this same engine is in the craftsmans and cub cadets ? i looked at a cub cadet , toro and craftsman, today. i couldn't handle the toros (up on a shelf). but the cub cadet felt like a fine machine. and it had the same engine as the craftsman. but the craftsman didn't feel "fine".
 
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Old 11-26-11, 02:53 PM
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Hi condo-owner. Toro, Cub Cadet and Crafstman were the three best (in that order)single stage blowers rated by Consumers Reports in the Feb '11 issue. The thing that sold me on the Toro 621 is that it was rated 'excellent' for handling plow piles at the end of the driveway which can be a real pain; in fact, even better than some of the heftier 2-stage models. The other two were rated 'very good'. Keep in mind also that the Toro has a 2-year parts/labor warranty and if you pay for it with a credit card there's a good chance the card has an extended warranty feature which tacks on another year(check to be sure). I haven't used the Toro yet, but handling, etc. feel fine to me. I'd guess they all use Chinese made engines these days. If any of 'em had a Briggs & Stratton engine they'd probably highlight that "feature".
 
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Old 12-11-11, 05:15 PM
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Same Problem here with a brand new 621QZE machine

I too, after a third Toro 621 am having the same problem with the machine reving up and down, looking to even out, but it will not stop doing it. The first two machines came fairly bent up up from shipping. One I could not even open up the handle. Third machine made it, put oil and fresh gas in it, started it up and bam, reving up and down every few seconds. I have owned equipment for 25 years, this is not normal, not matter what Toro says. Why do I need to keep the choke 1/4 or 1/2 on to get it to stay with a correct idle. Otherwise its justs pure surging up and down. Ran it for one hour today, did it the entire time. Then another 20 mins with the same. It seems to run lean and surge right out of the box. I wonder if this is a problem with all of the 621 machines. Seems difficult to deal with taking a brand new machine already in for service. Maybe I should return it and get something with a Briggs motor and applicable carb. As a long time Toro guy it is a big disappointment.
 
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Old 12-13-11, 06:29 AM
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Have any of you run the 621 in snow conditions, under load? I'm curious how the engine will fare in such conditions! We've yet to see any of these models come into our shop and would like to know how they perform in real conditions. Let us know please.
 
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Old 12-14-11, 02:55 PM
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Amazingly I haven't had to use the snowblower yet here in St. Paul MN. Never thought I would be anxious for a big snow but I really want to see how this machine behaves!

Also, it is indeed a Loncin engine, made in China. I saw some posts to this thread that some thought it was an LCT engine.

I'll update when I get a chance to put the blower to work.
 
  #21  
Old 12-15-11, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mnjim View Post
Amazingly I haven't had to use the snowblower yet here in St. Paul MN. Never thought I would be anxious for a big snow but I really want to see how this machine behaves!

i know what you mean. i just bought my first ever snow blower. a used toro ccr1000.
and we have yet to get any real snow.
 
  #22  
Old 12-27-11, 08:35 AM
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Thumbs down Machine is in for service

All, I emailed Toro and recd two different responses, neither made sense. Also, I went with my gut and common sense (I passed on the company spinned mind control) and took it in for service. The master mechanic said it may have bad gas, I said well then if it has bad gas it should run crappy no matter where it idles for the most part, and that why would then it clean it all self up with a nice nice idle if I adjust the choke position? He basically said good point, and leave it here, he will look at it. Well, jury so far after they looked at it says it needs a new carb. That to me says a Toro problem with their carbs. I should get it back next week, and we shall see. I am telling you this crap about Toro stating it has to do with the temp outside when you start it up and that it needs to funtion more so in zero temps to run ideally is bad along with the various other answers I received. Hope this is not a mass problem like they had last year, seems like they can correct mass problems with some or better QC, but that costs money. Maybe a few more recall problems will get their attention a bit. I would think their returns also are a bit high from bent up machines, particularily when there is no packing on top of the machine. Hard to believe a modern day company puts in no packing. How many cents did it save to not have the machine secure in the box? Also cant say I have heard of a B&S carb or motor right out of the box needing service easily. If your machine is doing this, please do not accept it, it is not normal and should not run like this. You paid for a new machine that should have a proper basic funtioning level, not constant surging up and down, up and down, revs all day long. Toro woulnt acqknowledge it, and dont expect them too. If they just did what they are suppose to as a company to their customers and shareholders this wouldnt happen. I like my Toro stuff but I guess I have to admit to myself I am seeing the modern day evolution of a company right before me. From the old tried and true to this.
 

Last edited by Sixpackjoe; 12-27-11 at 09:03 AM.
  #23  
Old 12-28-11, 02:25 PM
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The older 2 stroke toro's surged like a dirt bike, but that was normal. I just worked on one with a plastic carb and ordered a replacement that was steel. Unfortunatly the chinese engines are here to stay. I am a Honda dealer and have to say the Honda's being Japanese are the best engines I have ever seen. MTD/Troybilt are also Chinese and look exactly like LCT crap. Stens quit selling LCT because they were so bad. I took in a brand new Troybilt 8 hp blower that the customer overfilled the oil on. Just to get to the carb I had to take half of the engine apart. Cleaned the carb, drained and refilled the oil and it ran fine. I got to charge him $ 125.00 for nearly 3 hours work. Not reading the manual and overfilling the oil is NOT covered under warranty. I would bring your units to the dealer for repair. They should run right out of the box. Unfortunatly if you buy them at a big box like this guy did you may be S.O.L.
 
  #24  
Old 01-01-12, 04:40 PM
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toro 621 snowblower 163cc Loncin OHV engine hunting

Hi all, just an update with how the toro ran with its first snowfall. Upon startup it still hunted/surged so I let it warm up for a few minutes with no change. I started blowing snow and within a few minutes the rpms steadied and no more surging! It also continued to run smoothly when the impeller was not engaged which I didn't expect. I thought the surging would come back once there was no load. Any small engine gurus have an explanation for this behavior?
I did notice the rpms seemed to be slightly lower once it was running steady. Maybe the governor is not 100% ???

Machine was brand new this winter with about 1 hour of runtime before actually seeing any snow use.

Thanks -Jim
 
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Old 01-01-12, 08:01 PM
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If it just surges when it is cold, right after startup, then I wouldn't worry too much. That's about as good as it gets. It should not surge once it's warmed up, load or no load, ever.
 
  #26  
Old 01-02-12, 01:48 PM
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Hey Cheese,
I ran the snowblower 5 or 6 times for 10-15 minutes a shot when I bought it new this fall. Still had the hunting/surging thing going on. This was when the temp was around 50-60 degrees. Didn't matter whether the impeller was engaged or not, still had the surging.

Gas is 91 octane non-oxy no ethanol variety.

Now after a light workout in the snow it behaves as in my most recent post. ??????

Thanks for following the thread.
 
  #27  
Old 01-03-12, 08:58 PM
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Sounds like it's fixed. Not surging once it reaches operating temps, right? That's probably about as much as you'll get out of these lean set carbs.
 
  #28  
Old 11-05-12, 01:10 PM
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Hello all. I had the same surging problem with my chinese-engined Troy-Bilt Squall 2100. I agree a lot of these engines are running too lean.

A lean condition is usually evident when the engine...
1. runs better as the engine warms up,
2. runs better with a little (or a lot!) of choke,
3. runs worse as temps go down (cooler air is denser air).

Since there is no throttle control on most of these smaller blowers they basically run "wide open" on the main fuel jet only. There is no idle/low speed circuit to worry about.

I fixed mine by SLIGHTLY enlarging the main fuel jet orifice with a wire from a carb cleaning tool. This tool:

Amazon.com: K&L Carb Cleaner Wire Set - --: Automotive

I used the largest wire that fit in the jet orifice without forcing it. Then ran it in and out a few times with some light pressure to enlarge the hole. The jet is made of soft brass so it doesn't take much. Go easy here.

After doing this the machine started up from dead cold with only minimal choke, and ran steady and smooth like a good running lawn mower.
 
  #29  
Old 11-05-12, 09:53 PM
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That's what I use as well, but don't get ripped by the Amazon prices. That is a torch tip cleaner set. Go to your local welder supply store and pick up 4 for the price amazon is asking. I guess someone finally marketed it for carb use and marked it way up.
 
  #30  
Old 11-29-12, 02:32 PM
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Hmmm... Interesting tip. I started this thread last winter and decided to check and see if any other posters had used their Toro 621 in heavy snow yet. We have had nothing here in minnesota so I still can't comment on how the engine behaves with that. I did seem to almost completely smooth out last winter when under load from a 3 inch wet snowfall though but I'm waiting for a chance push it harder and then see what we got. I just pulled it out of storage and it started on the 2nd pull but began doing the surge thing again. It has brand new 91 octane no ethanol gas and an oil change. I'll update if the white stuff ever starts flying.
 
  #31  
Old 12-03-12, 06:30 PM
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Toro 621 R

My Toro 621 R was lightly used last winter and this winter I had to replace spark plug, older was completely dead.
Engine has always been surging and only way to make it work normal just to pull choke about half way out.
Also it seems like my carburetor is leaking smell in garage became real bad. Please let me know is any way to prevent gas leakage.

Thank you
 
  #32  
Old 12-11-12, 09:56 AM
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Thumbs up

Finally got a big snowfall (14" of wet heavy) to work out the Toro 621e snowblower. The snowblower continues to surge some upon startup, even after letting it warm up for 10 minutes. When in use it runs smoothly and does not surge even with the impeller disengaged. I guess I'll live with the way it runs and not change anything for now. It did pretty good considering the weight of the snow and also cleaned out the driveway snowplow pile almost as quickly as the neighbors two stage blower.

Now, only time will tell if the chinese motor is durable or not. Its made by Loncin not Tecumseh as I originally posted. Otherwise, I'm pretty happy with it and it does as much as can be expected from a single stage.
 
  #33  
Old 12-20-12, 02:00 PM
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Toro 163cc OHV 421QZ

I've owned Toro's for 30 years, snow blowers, mowers, trimmers. Never had any problems! Bought my '11 Toro Power Clear 421QZ last year. Yes, it has been surging since I bought it. I leave the choke out 1/2 way all the time. Starts right up every time! I use regular unleaded w/10% ethanol fuel. I also mix my snow blower fuel w/Stabil 100% of the time, my Mechanic recommended it. Just used it in a 6" wet snow this morning & handle great! I change the oil & plug every year.
 
  #34  
Old 02-28-14, 06:42 AM
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found fix

I know this is an old thread but it is a good one and for any future searchers:
My 2005 Toro was doing this up and down surging/stalling. It has the plastic carb with no fuel or air mixture adjustments available. I cleaned it and had the same results - no difference, still surging/stalling. Then I puller off the small black sticker on the side and found another jet beneath it! Unscrewed that jet and lo and behold, the very tiny tiny hole in the tip was plugged. It even looked like it was made that way with no hole supposed to even be there. But when I poked it with a wire brush wire, it opened up. I looked at the carb and see what looks like an outlet to a tiny hole on the downstream side of the downstream butterfly valve that has a plastic housing line running to where this jet seats. So here is what I think was happening: when the engine is running, air from the flywheel blows on a paddle connected to the governor spring which is in turn connected to linkage to the downstream butterfly valve. this valve normaly is closed when running; it has a small hole in it for 'some' air through the carb. the small hole in the carb side body I mentioned is the lean fuel jet opening when running. so this jet being plugged caused the engine to stall. as it began to shut down, the flywheel air on the paddle became lower and the spring opened the butterfly valve thus allowing fuel from the 'main' jet upstream to now make it rev back up to life. but as soon as it did the air from the flywheel would blow the paddle again, closing the downstream butterfly valve, shutting off most of the main jet flow and with the smaller lean jet plugged, it would start to die again. Sorry for the rambling but the bottom line was this smaller lean jet hidden under the sticker was the culprit. Oh, and if you want to richen up these machines, it is this smaller jet that you would open up a bit with a teensy drill bit or rough wire. Do not open up the main jet that is accessed at the bottom of the carb going up that vertical shaft. the smaller jet is installed horizontally, and was under a sticker (probably to prevent tampering/richening just as I am saying here.)
 
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