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Bad Oil Leak ...Where Is It Coming From?


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05-30-12, 01:33 PM   #1  
Bad Oil Leak ...Where Is It Coming From?

Howdy .... I have a 2135 Cub Cadet riding mower with the Kohler Engine. I don't have a power loss of any kind, but I have to fill the oil each time I cut.

The engine model number is in a hard to see ... it's placed on the engine blower housing ... the back wall makes it hard to see, but if you need the model number I will get it.


Hopefully the attached picture will show you what I am up against. I see oil on the top where the spark plug cable comes out and on the fin ... I don't have a clue where the leak is ... can anyone here tell me? And most important how to stop it.


Thank you for reading my post.

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05-30-12, 03:14 PM   #2  
Hello spirittoo,


That does appear to be a pretty bad leak, I'd venture to say you've got a blown head gasket at the oil return area. A cylinder leak-down test would confirm or eliminate this being the issue.

Oh, This engine is a model CH16 spec number 45509 for future reference. You can download a complete service/repair manual here; Kohler Engines: Owners and Service Manuals: Manuals and Maintenance


Good Luck

 
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05-30-12, 07:41 PM   #3  
Hi thanks for posting ... how can I perform the leak down test? Are special tools required? If so I don't have a way to do the test.

When the head gasket blows it leaks oil like that? Is there anything else that would cause that kind of oil leak?

Is it difficult to change the head gasket?

 
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05-31-12, 09:35 AM   #4  
Are special tools required?
Yes, A leak-down tester is required.

If so I don't have a way to do the test.
Check with your local repair shops and see if they can perform the test for you.

When the head gasket blows it leaks oil like that?
Yes, They can if blown in the oil return area.

Is there anything else that would cause that kind of oil leak?
Yes, Possibly a faulty/blown/popped out front crankshaft seal, That's why I suggested a leak-down test first. That's quite a job to remove the engine on this machine as where a head gasket can be replaced without engine removal.

Is it difficult to change the head gasket?
Difficulty depends on one's mechanical skill level, You can down-load the manual as mentioned above and read that section. If your not confident in attempting the repair please don't, It always cost more in the long run having someone else re-do or finish the job correctly.


Good Luck

 
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06-02-12, 12:00 PM   #5  
Well I'm in for it no matter what

Thanks for posting :HF2:... well looks like no matter what the engine has to come apart. It would cost me dearly to have a test done, so I'm stuck taking the engine apart myself to check and see if the head gasket is bad ... if not the other operation you mention would have to be done.

I see there is a video on youtube on how to dissemble the engine, but they already have it out of the tractor. I'm going to see if I can find some info on how to remove it ... and how difficult it will be. I hope it's just the head gasket.

Tell me would there be a loss of power with the two possible problems you mentioned? The mower runs fine with the exception of the oil leak.

 
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06-02-12, 02:59 PM   #6  
It would cost me dearly to have a test done

[ATTACH=CONFIG]893[/ATTACH] WHAT !!!!!


A leak-down test doesn't take maybe 5-10 minutes tops ??? [ATTACH=CONFIG]894[/ATTACH]


What were you quoted for such a simple test ?


would there be a loss of power with the two possible problems you mentioned?
You wouldn't notice a power loss because the head gasket would still be sealing around the cylinder bore, Crankcase pressures would just blow the oil out.

Again, You don't have to remove the engine from the tractor to replace a head gasket if that's the issue, Just the front sheet metal and hood.....

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06-05-12, 06:03 PM   #7  
What about the seal?

Well I was thinking of the cost to have the tractor transported to the shop, I don't know what the test will cost ... let me ask you if the crankshaft seal blew would I have a reduction of power?

Is is possible you can provide a link to an online store that carries my head gasket?

 
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06-05-12, 06:53 PM   #8  
No, A blown seal wouldn't show much power loss if any.

Head Gasket

Rocker Cover Gasket


Good Luck

 
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06-07-12, 04:11 PM   #9  
Wow ... thanks much

I have been looking all over for a place to buy a gasket ... thanks so much for those links!

If I'm lucky it will be the head gasket ... if not ... I'll have to learn how to pull the engine

 
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04-08-13, 12:18 PM   #10  
Back at it again

Hilly Ho! Well sir I am working to take my engine apart so I can find out why it is leaking. The problem is I can't find the correct service manual for it. I checked the link provided but it stated it had no information on my engine. The model number and other info is in a place that is very hard to see, but what I gather it is CH 13(5) or (s) or (8) really can't tell
The family number is SKH398U1G2RA ... the spec number is 22508 ... the CC is 398 ... the serial number is 2705208104.

Correct me if I am wrong ... but looking at the picture I post isn't my rocker cover and head gasket on the top of the engine? Don't I need to take that apart to find the leak? Does anyone one know where I can get information on how to disassemble this engine to locate the leak? Thanks for reading my post.

Update ... took another look at the list they gave at the Kohler site and tried a different family ... well the one closest to my engine and I was able to find it. I'm looking it over now and if I have more questions I will repost.

Service Manual CH 13

After looking through this manual ... it still doesn't look like my engine:NO NO NO: As you can see in the picture the muffler isn't where they have it in the manual.


Last edited by spirittoo; 04-08-13 at 12:42 PM.
 
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04-08-13, 07:09 PM   #11  
Should be CH13S, designating a Command Horizontal 13 hp electric Start. The muffler may not be as shown in the manual, since the muffler is sometimes a part that varies by the equipment manufacturer, not the engine manufacturer.

To take the head off, take the blower cover off, or at least move it back far enough to get the head past it, then take the spark plug out, take the valve cover off, remove the exhaust and intake from the head, then take the head bolts out and pop the head off.


"Who is John Galt?" - Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)

God bless!

 
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04-08-13, 07:37 PM   #12  
Hello again spirittoo,

Cub Cadet doesn't list a 13hp engine on a 2135 lawn tractor, I looked that model up and it shows 16hp CH16S..... Regardless they are the same engine family.

As Mr Cheese mentioned, You can't go by all pictures in the manual because they will show different parts for different applications but the base (basic) engine is the same.

Since you had trouble with trying to find the correct manual, Here's a prompt for download link of the manual for your engine. Start at section 9 and only remove what's needed to gain access to the head/gasket.

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/6142...al-pdf-2-1-meg

Please let me know when you get this downloaded and saved to your computer so I can turn the link back off.


Good Luck

 
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04-09-13, 09:13 AM   #13  
Can't gain access to the file

Howdy Tech

Well sir ... I went to the link you provided and I had to sign up for an account first ... then I tried the link again and got this message ...


"You have just tried to access a document in another KeepandShare account 'restrorob'. To view it you need to ask the owner of the other account to set the Sharing controls to give your KeepandShare user name 'spirit30' rights to view the document.

My goodness ... all that to see the document In the mean time I will take pictures of what I am doing to take it apart so I will know how to put it back together and give you guys a look at what is going on too.

 
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04-09-13, 12:23 PM   #14  
Doesn't look like the head gasket is bad ... what next?

I took some picture of the breakdown of the engine ... from what I can see the head gasket looks good and the oil leak seems to be further down. Now what? Is this going to get real complicated now.
Looks pretty bad down there ...

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04-09-13, 03:48 PM   #15  
Yeah, it's looking more now like it might be leaking from the front crank seal and blowing all over the engine. Might be best to just remove the engine.


"Who is John Galt?" - Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)

God bless!

 
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04-09-13, 05:06 PM   #16  
Oh dear ... Can your tell me how to remove the engine and where to I find the crank seal and replace it. Any material out in cyber space that can help me accomplish this feat. I've never done anything like this before. Will the flywheel have to be removed in order to reach the crank seal? I don't have the tools to remove the flywheel.

 
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04-10-13, 12:10 AM   #17  
It doesn't take special tools. I haven't removed the engine on one of those units, and it's a bit different than the run of the mill mower. I can't tell every step, but you'll have to disconnect whatever is connected from the mower to the engine (driveshaft, belts, electrical, choke and throttle cables) and remove the 4 engine mounting bolts and lift it out. Might be better to remove the hood assembly.

The flywheel is held on with one bolt. A puller can be rented from an auto parts store or you can remove it with a couple prybars and a hammer.


"Who is John Galt?" - Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)

God bless!

 
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04-10-13, 03:28 PM   #18  
Isn't flywheel removal a two person job?

On one of the videos I saw it took two guys to remove the flywheel ... they had a special holder to secure the flywheel and the puller.

Tech I could really use that manual you got. Can you give me permission so I can get it? I really need to know what I have to disconnect to pull the engine and how to get to the seal that is leaking ... remove it and replace it.

 
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04-10-13, 03:30 PM   #19  
Hello spirittoo,


My apology for not posting last evening, I had my hands full with a computer glitch.....

Anyway, I'm also sorry you pulled the head and found no issue..... That's why I suggest a leak-down test before hand, To make sure that's the issue.

Sorry again that you had issues trying to download the service manual, I failed to set the controls correctly since I don't use that site often. The controls are set now if you want to download, You will need torque specs and head torque pattern among other things; LINK

To remove the engine is basic like Mr Cheese explained, But with all due respect to Mr Cheese..... The best way to remove a Kohler flywheel is with a puller, My puller of choice is a auto steering wheel puller which can be rented and Mr Cheese mentioned.

Before you re-install the flywheel clean the crankshaft and flywheel center hole with carb & choke spray cleaner, This will remove any oil residue which can cause flywheel key shearing.

If you have any further questions please ask, Again sorry for the inconvenience.....


Good Luck

 
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04-10-13, 07:29 PM   #20  
Thanks ... you can turn it off now Tech

Thanks for a look at the manual. It's the same one I found and posted a link to so now I know that is what I have to go by. The engine is different than mine, but I guess I can figure it out, and I can get with you guys when I get stuck.

I knew I needed a puller by the video I saw, but there were two guys taking the flywheel apart ... one with this strap with a handle that he put around the flywheel, and the guy that used the puller ... isn't that something I must do to ... it just me, and I will have to find someone to help.

 
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04-10-13, 11:10 PM   #21  
The strap and all is not required. If you can't hold the flywheel enough to take the bolt out, once you have the engine out, run it by an automotive or tire shop and ask someone to take the bolt out with an impact gun. It's tight, but not so tight that it should be a problem.

31YTech, I bet you're thinking of those magnets in the flywheel. I agree. They do seem to fall off of kohler flywheels more than others for some reason, and jarring the flywheel loose might expedite that.


"Who is John Galt?" - Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)

God bless!


Last edited by cheese; 04-11-13 at 09:35 AM.
 
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04-11-13, 07:59 AM   #22  
Will talk to the repair man at the cub cadet shop

Yeah cheese ... I think my best bet is to remove the engine and take it up to the cub cadet shop and have him remove the flywheel ... I should be able to put it back without the pull tool correct?

 
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04-11-13, 09:22 AM   #23  
31YTech, I bet you're thinking of those magnets in the flywheel. I agree. They do seem to fall off of kohler flywheels more then others for some reason, and jarring the flywheel loose might expedite that.
Correct Mr Cheese, I did this myself ONCE years ago as a rookie..... I no longer take the chance......

I should be able to put it back without the pull tool correct?
Correct, No puller required for re-installation. But don't forget to clean the crank and flywheel center hole as I mentioned.....

 
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04-11-13, 01:10 PM   #24  
$35 Just to remove the flywheel

Well sir ... I went to the local cub cadet repair shop and it would cost me $35 to have the flywheel removed. Way too much for something that takes a couple of minutes with the right tools. The head mechanic there said I could pry it loose with a pry bar, but from what I gather from tech its not a good idea? So from the picture shown the next step after removing the head is removing the bottom part? I should be able to see the bolts that have to come off ... It cost me $50 bucks for the gasket set including the seal ... they are only sold in a set, but I figure all the gasket should be changed ... correct?

 
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04-11-13, 07:14 PM   #25  
Hello spirittoo,


I hate to say it, But your local cub cadet "repair"/rip-off shop is taking people for a ride. I understand all about shops having to make money, But.... I refuse to rip people off in the process.... :NO NO NO:

If I removed that flywheel you'd get out the door for $14.99 my shop minimum charge, It's not rocket science..... When you mentioned taking it to a shop I pictured a mechanic wanna-be walking up with a prybar and hammer....

It cost me $50 bucks for the gasket set including the seal ... they are only sold in a set
Was it this "shop" that told you the only way to get a seal was in a full gasket set ?

I've already posted the head and valve cover gaskets, Here's the crankshaft seal....


Actually, All you need to replace is what you took apart.... The head-valve cover and of course the leaking seal, I would NOT open the side cover of the engine if it's not leaking.

OK, A quick run-down on what needs to be removed to get the engine off;

Disconnect battery.

Remove throttle cable, choke cable if equipped.

Remove the large red battery cable from the starter.

Unplug the PTO clutch from the tractor wire harness and remove the deck drive belt.

There will be a white square multi wire plug connector next to the engine connecting the engine wire harness to the tractor wire harness, Unplug this connector.

Now, Look at the flywheel and you'll see the hydro drive shaft bolted to the flywheel. Remove the two bolts holding the shaft coupler adapter to the flywheel;





Since you already have the head off, The muffler and carb should already be disconnected. After all the above is done look under the front frame section and you'll find four bolts holding the engine down, Remove these bolts and slide the engine forward away from the driveshaft then lift it out of the frame.

Once you get the engine off and placed on a work bench shout back, I'll give details on how to remove the flywheel the proper way (no prybar and hammer) and without the need of a strap wrench.....

Good Luck

 
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04-11-13, 07:20 PM   #26  
The prybar method you asked about works, but you risk having a magnet come off the inside of the flywheel. If it does, it can be put back on with JBweld. (done this on a couple to experiment, never had one come back off. Gotta make sure it is oriented in the proper polarity though). Just go to Advance or Autozone and borrow a puller. They rent them for free (you pay a deposit and they refund it when you bring it back).


"Who is John Galt?" - Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)

God bless!


Last edited by cheese; 04-11-13 at 11:50 PM.
 
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04-11-13, 09:54 PM   #27  
I'll be calling auto zone first thing in the morning

Yeah chesse I was checking out auto zone, but didn't get around to calling them ... I'm going to do that today when they open.

Tech, the people they ordered the gaskets and seal from said they would only sell a kit, but the local guy said he would just sell me the seal if I wanted. So I can choose what I'm going to need.

The head mechanic there is pretty cool and told me I could call him if I had any questions.

I will post again once I get the next stage done.

 
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04-12-13, 03:11 PM   #28  
Oh Oh ... Lost Again ...

Well sir ... as you can see by the picture the flywheel is way in the back and I'm not sure where I disconnect the shaft. Can you guys suggest something I can use to clean the engine so I can see a little better where the bolts are?

I know I have to disconnect the drive shaft ... and the wire plug connector but can't see where to get to it. You can see how gummy the connector is in the picture.

Do those bolts in the front where the PTO is have to come off? I see the shaft to the PTO is laying in a slot where is can just lift out.

What tool is going to be needed to lift the engine out once I do get it disconnected?

If you need better pictures of the engine let me know.

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04-13-13, 04:11 AM   #29  
Hello spirittoo,


Any automotive engine spray-on cleaner/degreaser and couple paint brushes to scrub with along with a garden hose with nozzle will suffice, If you can borrow or rent a pressure washer that would work better.

Rotate the engine so the piston is at the top of the cylinder then run masking tape across the entire head gasket surface, This will seal the engine so water doesn't enter while cleaning.

You shouldn't have to remove anything pertaining to the PTO clutch but the deck drive belt and wire plug connector, I do see in the pics that you should loosen if not remove the muffler to get the pipe out of the way of the PTO clutch for raising the engine out.

Two people can lift the engine up out of the frame pretty easily......

Good Luck

 
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04-14-13, 05:14 PM   #30  
Still Not Sure

Well sir ... I took some more pictures to show you because I'm still not sure about the bolts you are talking about to remove the engine. I see there is a small bolt in the picture below the electrical attachment, but I don't see anything else holding the engine.

I have more picture to post ... to be continued ...

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04-14-13, 05:26 PM   #31  
Part two

So I gather the bolt in the back is the only thing to take off? In the picture you can see there is nothing holding the back just that one bolt and the linkage.

I see nothing else holding the back and the engine should come out intact correct? I just don't see how to disconnect the shaft ... what am I missing?

Besides the belts and cables are there other bolt I have to remove?

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04-14-13, 05:42 PM   #32  
There are 4 bolts holding the engine down from under the mower frame. They need to come out. The last picture shows the PTO end of the engine. The shaft is at the other end. It has to be disconnected as well.


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04-15-13, 07:21 AM   #33  
spirittoo,


31YTech;If you can borrow or rent a pressure washer that would work better.
The above is what you need to do, That engine and machine isn't clean enough to see what you need to for performing this job. It's hard to see fasteners that are caked with oily mud or covered over in grass.

All the wires shown in your pics are part of the engine wire harness, Unplugging the one main engine harness plug from the main tractor harness plug, And removing the large red battery cable from the starter should separate engine from tractor wiring.

The two drive shaft bolts are behind the air intake boot at the flywheel, You have to remove the screws holding the bulkhead in place, Lift up and move to one side then the driveshaft and coupler bolts can be seen;







Good Luck

 
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04-16-13, 03:33 PM   #34  
Is that the crankseal?

Well sir ... I rented a puller and a friend helped me remove the engine and the flywheel. Here are the pictures. Now tell me ... Is that steel ring the seal holder ... and if so how do I remove it and replace it?

I plan to give the engine a good cleaning before I reassemble it. I can spray the flywheel area with the engine cleaner correct ... and as long as I keep the head hold covered I will be able to clean that too correct?

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04-16-13, 07:32 PM   #35  
That black ring right at the crankshaft is the seal. You'll want to pull it out. If you aren't familiar with doing this, you might want to seek experienced help. It is easy to scratch the crankshaft taking the seal out and putting another back in and if you do, it will never stop leaking. I use a slide hammer with a screw chucked in it to pull seals out. A slide hammer can also be rented the same way as the puller. If you try this, be very careful to not allow the slide hammer or the screw to touch the crankshaft. The shaft is softer than you would think, and scratches easily.


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04-16-13, 07:51 PM   #36  
Just to add to Mr Cheese's description;




Yes, You can clean it all up with engine cleaner..... But, I can't stress enough about cleaning any oil/engine cleaner residue off the end of the crank and center hole of the flywheel with carb & choke spray cleaner before re-assembly. Do NOT use Gumout brand for this, It's nothing but mineral spirits in a spray can and could cause issues.....

Good Luck

 
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04-17-13, 08:08 AM   #37  
What about replacing the seal?

Do I have to use the slide hammer to replace the seal too?

 
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04-17-13, 09:23 AM   #38  
spirittoo,

A slid hammer is best for removal of the seal, I use a 1/2" drive deep well socket the same diameter as the outside ring of the seal to tap the new one in place.


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04-18-13, 09:18 AM   #39  
More Pictures

I don't think I am going to get the inside where the seal is very clean ... the part with the wires is very gunky on the inside, but I can't get to it. I'll do the best I can, but I doubt I will be able to get it clean ...

I ask the guy at the repair shop about the ring and he said I could use a something with a hook to dig it out. Looks like I can get to it with a pen knife.

I wanted to post this picture of my engine spec now that I can get a good look at it. Can't see the tag when the engine is installed.:NO NO NO:

I will be able to use the engine cleaner to clean the rest of the engine correct? What is the crank??

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04-18-13, 05:06 PM   #40  
Even more Pictures

Well sir ... I got the seal on ... I was unable to rent a tool to pull it. The guy at the auto zone told me to use screws then pull it out. Well I had to take one of my tires up to my mechanic to put air in and I asked him what to use to pull it off. He got a driver with a hook on it and pull it right out. He also told me about the key on the shaft ... didn't know I had to remove that to remove the seal, and not to lose it ...without the key the engine won't start.

He put the new seal in for me too so now it's time to clean and reassemble. As you can see in the first picture I clean up the engine compartment as best I could. For those ... like me ... that don't know what the shaft is, you can see it behind the fuel filter.

Okay in the one picture you see I took off the coil to clean more of the dirt out. Do I have to torque those two screws that was holding it? I'm pretty sure the flywheel bolt has to be torque to a certain pound.

Now is there anything I need to watch for when I put the flywheel back on? I know I have to use a business card when I reattach the coil. What other things I need to be aware of when reassemble the engine?

The piece in the picture with the flywheel ... screw are not needed to hold it on? Or does it. My friend took that off so I'm not sure.

I will do it step by step and take pictures and check with you guys so when I do get it back together it will start.

Please let me know what is important when putting this back together again ... I will really appreciate it.

I'm not sure what that plug in the last picture goes to ... either of you guys know?

And one other thing ... once I get the flywheel back on can I take the engine to the car wash and clean it without worrying about messing something up? I tried the engine degreaser, but as you can see there is still quite a bit of oil and dirt.

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