11hp B&S, Won't start for love nor money, PLEASE HELP!!

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  #1  
Old 02-23-13, 03:57 PM
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11hp B&S, Won't start for love nor money, PLEASE HELP!!

Hi guys,


been reading the forum from over here In Sunny England and would love some help!

My engine is on an old atco ride on mower (roughly 1986) (model - 252707, type - 0238-01). I have just bought it from a guy who said it ran ok last summer but he has left it outside all winter.

at first there was no spark so I changed the ignition coil and now it has a strong spark. The motor started once for 10 seconds and now won't start at all!

I have removed and cleaned the carb and it is now squeaky clean! When I remove the spark plug it is slightly wet with fuel (which is fresh fuel!) so I presume fuel is getting through. It turns over fine (electric start) but has now also started back firing when i am trying to start it. Iam trying to start it with the air filter removed and there is a decent amount of fuel in the carb air intake.

i am clueless as to why it started and ran for 10 seconds and now won't start at all!?!?

any help will be very much appreciated!!

thanks!
 
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  #2  
Old 02-23-13, 04:16 PM
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Sounds lik eit's flooded if you see fuel on the spark plug. Try disconnecting the fuel line and crank the engine a bit with the plug out to blow the excess fuel out, then see if it will start. If so, the carb is probably leaking fuel or set way too rich.
 
  #3  
Old 02-23-13, 04:29 PM
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Thanks for the reply Cheese!

The carb is leaking fuel from the carb bucket (only very slightly) as the gasket has gone. It is also leaking either fuel or air via a rubber tube that connects the carb to the engine (not sure what this tube is? The tube is broken, that's why it is leaking).

how do i set the carb so it has the right balance of fuel and air?

thanks for your reply, it is very much appreciated!
 
  #4  
Old 02-23-13, 07:42 PM
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The needle is leaking in the carb. That's why it's coming out those other places. The float should shut the fuel off before it ever gets high enough to leak at the top of the bowl or the rubber hose. Take the float off and shake it near your ear. If you hear a sloshing noise, it is bad and you need to replace it. If not, replace the needle. Probably a good idea to just replace both anyway.
 
  #5  
Old 02-24-13, 02:34 AM
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Great stuff cheese! I will give that a try. When I removed the float and carb, all needles seemed ok but I will replace as they ain't too much $!

just to confirm, is it the 'valve needle' that is connected to the float I need to replace or the 'high speed valve', 'idle mixture kit', or even the 'carb nozzle'???

thanks again!
 
  #6  
Old 02-24-13, 11:42 AM
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The needle is connected to the float. It can look fine but still leak. A fw have a rubber seat that can also leak. If your needle has a rubber tip, then the seat is brass. If your needle has a solid metal tip, then the seat is rubber and it needs to be replaced.
 
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Old 02-24-13, 12:46 PM
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o

Thanks again for the reply Cheese!

I have attached a pic of the needle which is a rubber tipped one as you described. It looks ok but I have ordered a new one to eliminate if it is this or not! I am not sure where the brass 'seat' is though?
 
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  #8  
Old 02-24-13, 09:37 PM
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Ok, yours has the brass seat which should not require any service. It's what the needle fits into. I'd replace the float too unless you are confident it is good.
 
  #9  
Old 02-25-13, 09:29 AM
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In some cases the brass seat needs to be replaced as well. Have you done a compression check to make sure valves are ok?
 
  #10  
Old 02-25-13, 11:06 AM
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Sometimes the brass seat can be cleaned by using Fine valve grinding compound on a q-tip and mount the q-tip in a var speed drill. polish it till shinny Also run a pipe cleaner through the hole.
 
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Old 02-25-13, 11:11 AM
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Rarely does the seat need changing, and it's not something you just change when the needle hasn't been changed yet, which is why I said "should" not require service. Checking compression wouldn't hurt anything, but since it ran for 10 seconds before the carb started flooding out, I think it's sufficient.
 
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Old 02-25-13, 11:41 AM
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Thanks very much for the replys Chaps!

The only compression test I have done is too spin the fly wheel by hand the opposite way and then release it and let it spin back by itself....which it does very well! I dont have a compression tester so this is all I can do compression test wise!?!?

I will run some pipe cleaner through it just to give it a once over as the carb is VERY dirty!

Yeah it definitley ran for about 10 seconds and then just cut out! This would have been the first time (and only time!) that it had been started since last summer, and spending the whole winter outside!!! 10 seconds and then just would not start again!!

I have just ordered a new needle so lets hope...!!

Dont want to order a new float just yet as there like $30 over here! I have shook it at my ear and there is no 'sloshing' sound like Cheese described so I am hoping it is ok!!?!!?

T
 
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Old 02-25-13, 09:09 PM
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Sounds like the float is fine. Be careful using the pipe cleaner, if it has wire in it, it can scratch the seat and cause it to leak. I have been using a q-tip with polish on it for years to clean seats when they don't want to work right. Works well if it's needed. Your method of testing compression should be sufficient.
 
  #14  
Old 02-28-13, 01:41 PM
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Hi guys!

ok, I am still no further forward!!

the new needle arrived and I have fitted it but still no joy!?!?

if I remotely turn the choke screw to give it some choke, the carb leaks fuel from the bottom of it!! And there is a fair amount of fuel in the carb when the engine is just sitting there unless I turn the fuel off!!

i also removed the spark plug after trying to start it, and the spark plug is now dry as a bone!!

am rather puzzled!!??
 
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Old 02-28-13, 10:24 PM
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Sounds like the needle is still not shutting the gas off. You'll have to determine if it is because the float isn't floating, the seat needs cleaning, or other damage is keeping the float from closing the needle.
 
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Old 03-01-13, 12:17 PM
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Really Puzzled to be honest!!

Now when I have put it all back togethe,r and turn the fuel to on position, the carb just fills up with fuel and leaks out of the bottom, even with the valve screw / choke needle fully closed!

I have taken the carb off again and cleaned once more and looked at the float and needle.

I dont think its the needle as when I take of the bowl and hold the float up in position, the fuel turns off.

I dont think its the float as when I put the float in water it floats very well!

Could it possibly be the valve screw / Choke needle that goes through the bottom of the carb bowl? As now even when I fully close this the carb just fills up with fuel!!



I
 
  #17  
Old 03-01-13, 08:46 PM
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There is no choke needle. I assume you're talking about the high speed screw. None of that has anything to do with it. The float floating in water doesn't tell us much either. If the float has gas in it, gas floats on water anyway. Will it float well in gas? The only thing that will allow it to leak like that is the needle and seat not sealing.
 
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Old 03-02-13, 04:07 AM
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Thanks again for your constant replys Cheese! I really appreciate the help!

I have put the float in a mug of gas and it does float. The end that the needle attaches to sinks slightly but I presume that is because it is heavier than the rest of the float as it has the little lip that the needle attaches too!?!

i have just put it all back together and managed to get it to stop leaking! I then tried to start it but again no joy! I played around with the high speed screw a bit but still no joy. Then after 5 minutes, it just started to leak again!!

the carb really is as clean as a whistle and the brass seat does not appear to have any damage! I'm going to change the fuel lines to make sure no dirties getting through them and into the carb. But apart from that......I am lost!!!
 
  #19  
Old 03-02-13, 06:02 AM
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Ok, I have managed to stop the carb leaking!! I played about with the float needle and gave the carb a 4th clean and it now seems to have stopped leaking!

YET IT STILL WON'T START!! ARRGGHH!!

i have taken the spark plug out and it is wet (there is black wet residue on it?), there is also a popping noise every now and then when trying to start?

could it possibly be a push rod as mentioned in other posts? What about oil? I have never changed it and when I remove the oil fill cap the oil is full to the brim?!?

definitly got spark, fly wheel key is fine, fuel is getting through........???
 
  #20  
Old 03-02-13, 09:47 AM
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If the plug is wet, the engine is still flooded. Make sure the choke is off and the throttle is open. Crank the engine without the plug in it to blow out the excess fuel, then install a new plug that isn't soaked with gas and see if it will start. If the choke is closed, it will continue to flood. Turn the high speed screw in until it lightly seats, then back it out 2 full turns. This may not be where it needs to be, but once it is running it can be fine tuned.
 
  #21  
Old 03-02-13, 11:10 AM
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Done exactly as you described Cheese and still no joy!?!

when I open the high speed screw 2 full turns the carb fills up with gas and leaks from the bottom. When it is opened 1 full turn,it fills up slightly with gas but not enough to leak. When it is closed (lightly seated) it does not leak at all.

There is no choke on the engine, just the high speed screw. The only throttle control is to have it in the open position, or in gradually closing positions, which is to shut the engine off.

When it is turning over there is just no noise or anything that sounds like it is going to fire up??? I'm worried I'm going to burn the starter motor out soon!!!
 
  #22  
Old 03-02-13, 04:08 PM
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You still have a leaking problem. The valve that you are closing to stop the leak doesn't control that. Closing it just closes off the jet so that the fuel can't get up through it into the venturi. It's not supposed to get that high, which means it is still leaking. Closing the valve just gives it no place to go.
 
  #23  
Old 03-02-13, 04:47 PM
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Ah ok, I see your point! Thanks!

looks like I'm back to the drawing board of the float and needle then! I'm thinking it may be the metal wire that attaches the needle to the float?!? I presume this has to be precise for the valve to shut off? Maybe I would be better of just buying a new float to eliminate that problem at least, but I am pretty sure it is ok. Failing that........??
 
  #24  
Old 03-02-13, 08:24 PM
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Try the q-tip with polish in a drill and see if it stops leaking. It isn't often that this has to be done, but once in a while...
 
  #25  
Old 03-03-13, 10:21 AM
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Ok, slight progress!!

I polished the brass seat with Q-tip in a drill and polish! It came up rather shiny!! The carb now does not fill up with gas when the high speed valve is turned right out. However, after trying to start it, I can slide my finger under the carb (there is a round circle, almost like it is filled with solid sand paper, just next to where the air filter screw comes through the bottom of the carb), and there is a slight fuel residue, not a lot.

I then tried to start it, following Cheese's instructions, and managed to get it started once, however it ran for about 1 second and then cut out!! Progress at least!!

After that point I could not get it started again, even after repeating the exact same steps! I even tried with the high speed screw out 3 full turns and still no joy!!

i am pleased I got it started for 1 second though!!
 
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Old 03-03-13, 10:25 AM
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Ok, is the spark plug still wet? If so, screw the high speed needle all the way in and make sure the choke is open and see if you can start it. are you making sure the choke is open?
 
  #27  
Old 03-03-13, 12:00 PM
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The spark plug is slightly wet, not massively! If I rub it on my hand there is a slight wet /black residue, but not a lot.

I was under the impression the high speed needle was the choke??? As embossed on the carb is an arrow pointing down towards the carb bowl, so I presumed that it ment the high speed needle??

when starting I have the throttle lever on the mower to the 'start' position. This fully closes the air valve flap in the carb, and leaves the throttle/gas flap in the carb fully open.

does this sound right??
 
  #28  
Old 03-03-13, 12:44 PM
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No. Back off the start position so the throat of the carb is clear. The start position will have a choke plate functioning. That gives you a richer mixture which you don't need right now. When you have the flooding cleared out and cold starting, you'll use the start position with the choke in place.

It also would help, since you likely have it flooded to pull the plug, tie back the wire to prevent arcing, and with full throttle (short of start position) spin it over about ten times to clear the flooding out. Then put the plug back in, full throttle (short of start) see if it will start for ya.
 
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Old 03-03-13, 03:18 PM
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The arrow is pointing in an arc, as there is often a lever on the shaft right there at the arc that you would rotate in the direction of the arrow to choke it. The choke is the flap that you see in the end of the carb. This needs to be open, or it will continue to flood. Normally, you would close the choke, start the engine, then as soon as it starts, open the choke. If you keep it closed, it will flood and die and not restart until you open it and clear the fuel.
 
  #30  
Old 03-04-13, 12:23 PM
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Ok, might have a slight problem with a choke lever!!??

on the side of the carb where the 'choke' sign and 'arrow' is, there is no lever at all!! It looks like it may have sheared off!!? Would it just open the flap at the end of the cab anyway? As this flap is closed by the throttle lever when it is pushed to 'start' and it is opened when the throttle lever is pushed to 'run'.

still no joy anyway, even after repeating the steps you have guys have just suggested!!

should I try some 'easy start'? Didn't really want too go down that route though!!

i could try and film a video tomorrow so you guys can see the carb and what is going on when I am trying to start it.

i am extremely grateful for all the help!! It's nice to know people out there are happy just to help someone!!!!
 
  #31  
Old 03-04-13, 04:16 PM
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I wouldn't use any ether. It would just make flooding worse. If the throttle is operating the choke flap with the "start" position and pulling it off with the run position, you wouldn't need any manual lever. A flooded engine can be difficult.

My take would be to stop all gas flow to the carburetor, then go through the clearing procedure. Then, with the gas still shutoff, put a teaspoon of gas directly into the plug hole. Then put the plug back in it and try to start it with full throttle in run position. You may have to spin it over a lot to get the first fire. After it tries to start, turn the gas back on
 
  #32  
Old 03-04-13, 06:28 PM
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Agreed.

I only said there is often a lever there, not that you should expect to see one on yours. The same carb body is used on other applications where a lever might be incorporated. It wouldn't make sense for them to make 2 castings of the same carb just to have one that doesn't say "choke" on it. Yours is connected to a linkage, so it will be closed during starting if you push the control to the start position. If you are trying to start it in the start position, you are giving it more gas (choking it) when more gas is your problem. You need to try to start it in the fast run position. I agree with turning the gas off.
 
  #33  
Old 03-05-13, 02:59 PM
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Thanks for the reply guys! Makes sense about the carb lever!

unfortunatly I am no further forward!

I took your advice and turned of the gas. I then put a tea spoon of gas in the plug hole and tried to start it. It sounded like it wanted to go (smoke comin from the exhaust) so I turned on the gas (unscrewed the valve needle 2 full turns), but not a thing!! I tried it a second time (with valve needle all the way in) and still nothing!!!

I videoed a you tube video of me trying to start it so you guys can see what is going on!! Hope this helps!!

http://youtu.be/QgffsrIo5do Briggs and stratton, WILL NOT START!! - YouTube

Really appreciate the constant ideas and advice!
 
  #34  
Old 03-05-13, 07:22 PM
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If... you have checked the spark (a good one will be a bright blue one on the spark plug gap with the spark plug grounded to the engine head), and you have good enough compression (it should blow your thumb off the spark plug hole), and no reason to suspect a sheared flywheel key (so the timing is good), then you still have it flooded.

When you got smoke from the engine, you should have left the gas turned off and continued to crank the engine over with the throttle in the full on/ run position and the choke off. Clear the engine like you did before, put about half the gas you put in it with the syringe and try it again. When it actually tries to start it will be enough to spin the engine over a few times under its own power. The smoke was telling you it was getting ready to fire. I wouldn't do anything to the mixture screws until you have it firing from the gas added to plug hole.

Also, I wouldn't add any ether.
 
  #35  
Old 03-05-13, 10:30 PM
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Nice video. It appears in the video that you did enough that it should have started if it was simply flooded. I see the new coil on the engine. Is that what came in the Briggs and Stratton box on the floor? I only ask because I have had a lot of problems with aftermarket coils, and was wondering if yours was OEM or aftermarket. Is yours set to .010" air gap from the flywheel? When you checked the flywheel key, did you physically remove the flywheel to check it? When you put it back, you didn't put any lubricant on the flywheel or shaft, right? And you tightened the flywheel nut really tight, right? This thing should run. I can see that it has compression by the way it behaves when it comes to a stop in the video. All I can think of is that it maybe is still flooded. Check the oil... is it thin and does it smell of gas?
 
  #36  
Old 03-06-13, 01:29 PM
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Thanks again chaps, am really appreciating the help!!

i tried again the method of Turing the fuel off, clearing the gas in there out by turning it over, and then putting a small amount of gas in the plug hole.....but not a single cough! Not a thing!! It doesn't even sound like it wants to start! Iv repeated the process about 6-7 times, but nothing!?!??

The new coil on it is a genuine briggs and stratton OEM part. The gap is set as per the piece of card that came with the coil.

When I first got the mower, about 4 weeks ago, I had no spark, so I removed the fly wheel. At first it would not budge, so I sprayed a slight bit of wd40 lube on the shaft, I was then able to pry it off. I then wiped the lube off imidiately and never put any more back on. The fly wheel key was fine then, but I have not checked it since the engine started for the one time of 10 seconds and cut out!! I then put the fly wheel nut on very very tight!!

The oil however is very thin, and stinks of gas!! The level of the oil has also risen considerably since I have been trying to get it started over the past few weeks!!
 
  #37  
Old 03-06-13, 05:38 PM
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Okay, it is still flooded and clearing the cylinder and shutting off the gas is not going to help. The gas leaking has seeped past the rings into the engine crankcase. You need to drain the gassy oil and refill it with fresh oil. If the carb is still leaking, it will end up with gas in the oil again. Once you have fresh oil in, the engine cylinder can then be cleared and it should start. Don't bother with adding gas to the spark plug hole, just start it. Your crankcase is so full of gas that it is staying flooded even with the gas turned off.
 
  #38  
Old 03-06-13, 11:24 PM
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Ok, great stuff! I will give that a try and get some new oil today!
ponce I have drained the oil, how do I then clear the crank case of gas? D I simply just turn the engine over a few times with the spark plug out?

would it be wise to try and start it with high speed valve in or out??

thanks!!!!,
 
  #39  
Old 03-07-13, 12:21 AM
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Try to start it with no choke first. If nothing, clear the cylinder as you described with the plug out, then try again. If still nothing, run the high speed needle in and try again. It will probably smoke badly when it first starts, and you also may need to quickly adjust the high speed needle to keep it running, but try to keep it running at full speed for a little while to burn the gas and oil out of the exhaust.
 
  #40  
Old 03-07-13, 06:37 AM
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Flooding is such a headache because of the gas residue in the cylinder, cylinder head, and in your case the crankcase, That keeps spitting out the gas fumes and messes up the fuel air ratio, making it too rich to burn.

Aluminum is especially porous and absorbs oil and gas. Also a flooded out spark plug that looks dry will still smell like gas and contributes to poor starting in a flooded engine. All you can do is try to get the immediate fumes out the way, and get it started to burn out the gasoline residue.

In your case the leaking carb has created the big problem. Once you have that taken care of and the engine started the first time you'll be in good shape for future starts.
 
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