B&S 5.5HP I/C engine model 134202/1114-E1

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  #1  
Old 04-30-14, 09:22 AM
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B&S 5.5HP I/C engine model 134202/1114-E1

HELP!!

Craftsman rototiller model 917292400 with a B&S 5.5hp I/C engine model 134202/1114-E1.

Was happily tilling away then hit a rock then kaputz, it died. Nothing, nadda, zilch. Couldn't get it to even sputter.

Someone said it sounds like I sheared the flywheel key so I pulled the flywheel to get the key. The key was fine.

I put in a new sparkplug. Pulled off the air filter which was fine.

Got some carb cleaner and sprayed and sprayed the carb.

Tried to start, and again nothing, nadda, zilch.

Sprayed some starter fluid directly into the carb and got a backfire with flame out the carb and the muffler.

Someone suggested putting some gas directly into the carb. I did. Tried to fire it up and nothing, not even a backfire.

Stepped back ready to kick the thing when I notice the gas leaking out of the muffler. I'm assuming I flooded the engine?

Can you help me out here? The ultimate goal is to get the tiller running and in my garden.

Thanks!!
 
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  #2  
Old 04-30-14, 09:36 AM
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I would get a spark tester and confirm that you are getting spark and a compression test would be informative as well.
 
  #3  
Old 04-30-14, 09:42 AM
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OK I have no idea how to do that.

I can follow directions very well though.

Spark. With the sparkplug out nothing. with the sparkplug in I'm getting backfire now. Can I assume that I'm getting spark? I let it set for about an hour after I think I flooded it. Just went out and tried with the above results.
 
  #4  
Old 04-30-14, 11:10 AM
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You can't really assume you have spark from a backfire. With a 1/2 hour wait it is more likely you have spark but many backfires are simply unburnt fuel getting ignited inside and by a very hot exhaust pipe, and has nothing to do with ignition spark.

The best test for spark is with an air gap tester where you remove the spark plug and put the boot on one end of the tester and the ground to some part of the engine block and adjust the tester for some larger gap. In your case I would start with 1/8" inch gap. Pull the starter rope or hit the electric start and watch to see if you have spark jumping that gap. This type of tester can be made homemade but they do sell them in the hardware stores for less then $10. I have seen some people take a spark plug and bend the electrode to produce the 1/8" or larger gap and grounded it to the engine block and looked for spark. The 0.030" gap on a traditional plug is not enough to prove good spark in a non-compression environment. Even bad ignitions can sometimes jump that small gap when there is no compression.

Since you are not getting any response when you spray fuel into the carb throat, I am guessing that your problem is spark related (either no spark or poorly timed spark) or low compression.

The other possibility is flooding, perhaps caused by a leaking carb inlet needle. The only thing I can think of here is to remove the spark plug and crank the motor over 10 or 15 times in an attempt to blow out the fuel that might be in the combustion chamber and intake manifold. Then put the spark plug back in really quick and try to start it up and see if you at least get a papump. If it starts and runs great you can usually fix a leak like that with a simple manual fuel shut off valve between the gas tank and carb. If it papumps, runs and then dies, you will definitely need to remove the carb and clean out whatever is obstructing the inlet needle or float from sealing off the fuel flow. Remember when you are doing this test that you are blowing a combustable fuel out the spark plug hole or exhaust so keep fire safety in mind.
 
  #5  
Old 04-30-14, 11:30 AM
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Thank you.

While waiting your response I went to check the oil. Now I know where the majority of the gas and all the carb cleaner went. The oil was very thin and smelled of gas and carb cleaner.

What you said about pulling the plug and crank 10-15 times....I've done that multiple times but will go and do it again.

With the choke on full I'll get a putt putt. Slightly lessen choke and I'll get a putt putt and almost a mild backfire. The engine has not turned over at all but I'm getting a more consistent putt putt now than I was when I first started putzing.

So I guess I have to add carb removal and cleaning now? I've searched for specific diagrams and directions on that and have come up empty handed, how difficult will that be?
 
  #6  
Old 04-30-14, 12:06 PM
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Carb schematic here.

Illustrated Parts List

Good luck!

RR
 
  #7  
Old 04-30-14, 12:30 PM
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That is a sure sign of a fuel leak. You should install a manual fuel shut off valve, if you can, between the gas tank and fuel filter. That might even solve the problem. Sometimes these leaks are very small drops that over longer storage timeframes (a day or week, etc.) that small leak builds up and prevents the motor from starting, however if you can get it started the small leak sometimes has no effect on the running. In other words, as long as the draw of fuel from the running motor is larger then the leak, it will run fine. Other times it will flood out when running and the leak needs to be addressed. In any event, a manual fuel shut off, for when the mower is stored should have been standard equipment on these things, so I would install one. You can usually buy these shut off valves at many larger hardware stores and they only take about 10 minutes to install.

Don't forget to change that oil in there. Your mower will not like diluted oil for its lubrication.
 
  #8  
Old 04-30-14, 12:45 PM
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RR I've been all over B&S's site. Don't know how I missed that! Thank you!

Optsy...I'm headed out to the garage to try and remove the carb. It looks complicated. Don't go far I may need a shoulder to cry on!
 
  #9  
Old 04-30-14, 04:19 PM
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If you haven't cleaned that carb before then this has gotta help.

Disassembly, Cleaning and Repair of Briggs Tank-mounted Pulsa-jet Fixed-jet Small Well Carburetor

This carb doesn't seem to have an inlet needle and float like I am used to. Take a close look at that diaphragm flapper valve (picture#9) for degradation and/or brittleness. That might be where the extra fuel is getting through.

Good luck.
 

Last edited by OptsyEagle; 04-30-14 at 04:40 PM.
  #10  
Old 04-30-14, 07:29 PM
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Optsy you are dead on! about the inlet needle and float. I only know that because after I removed the carb and gas tank I took it with me to the local shop to get the carb overhaul kit. I called in advance to make sure they had it. :-)

While at the shop he looked over my carb and told me which screw to pull and where to clean etc. I asked about a needle and float that I've read about and he told me my model didn't have one.

The link you provided is perfect! THANK YOU!!

The guy starts shaking his finger at me....you're the chick with the "rainbow" tractor from last year, the deck and engine do not match up with anything on the model number under the seat.

Ut oh..... :-D

A bit of a blush to acknowledge his memory then inform him I'll probably be back later in the week because I have to fix the flywheel on the tractor, a couple teeth are missing and I'm manually turning the fly wheel past the teeth to get it started.

Oh yeah....they know me.

OK, I went off carb talk.....

I picked up the kit with the intentions of completing the job this evening. When I got home I decided to partake in a glass or 5 of wine. The carb will still be there in the morning right???

I can't thank you enough for the help so far and hopefully the continued help.

Much gratitude.
 
  #11  
Old 05-02-14, 08:52 AM
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Ugh, no dice.

Did everything suggested. Followed directions to a "T". Watched several YouTube videos to include on with my same engine model (but with a needle inlet).

Thoroughly cleaned the sucker.

Brand new gas just minutes out of the pump added to tank. Choke on and let er rip. Two putts and that's it. Must have pulled on the rip cord 50 times with the choke and gas level in varying positions. Nothing more than 2 putts.

Any more advice, suggestions, words of wisdom or perhaps a functioning tiller for a trade? :-D
 
  #12  
Old 05-02-14, 09:50 AM
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Put in a new plug, the old one is probably gas fouled by now so even if you fixed the flooding issue, it may not fire properly.
 
  #13  
Old 05-02-14, 10:00 AM
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It is a brand new plug.

Got anything else?
 
  #14  
Old 05-02-14, 04:57 PM
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Frustrated here. Going over everything, crossing my "T"'s and dotting my "i"'s.

On the back side of the "dohicky" that holds the levers for choke and speed there is a small bracket that has a wire clipped to it. That wire goes over to the starter/magnet/hickamajigger rubbed by the flywheel. All is good there.

There is another of those "dohickies" on the gas tank right behind where the governor hinge hickamajinger is. However there is no wire attached to it.??? When the governor hinge moves, it does "tap" a part of the switch.

From pouring over the diagrams I "think" what I'm seeing is item 621, a "stop switch". I see no piece of a wire anywhere that would go to it.

I've looked at everything electrical I could find for my model engine and can find nothing.

IMO, being that this engine is on a rototiller that I did buy brand new from Sears....this seems like a really strange and quite frankly a stupid place for a wire to be. I know some things are put on everything in a standard kinda way and that not all are used. Does that apply to this piece?????

I'm so frustrated.
 
  #15  
Old 05-02-14, 06:13 PM
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As long as you have spark, that wire/switch isn't part of the problem. How did you verify that the flywheel key is fine? Did you see the key in the slot or actually hold the key? When you put the flywheel back on, did you properly torque it down? If not, it could be sheared now even if it wasn't then. It may have had carb issues that you've fixed, but not firing right because of the key. Are both valves operating properly? Does the engine have sufficient compression?
 
  #16  
Old 05-02-14, 08:22 PM
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I pulled the flywheel and held the cute little key in my hand before I chucked it and pulled a brand spanking new one out of the pack of keys I purchased for the job. The old and the new looked identical. The old one was chucked on principle at this point.

Torque? Valves? Compression? Can you be more specific?

I'm a chick. Not a mechanic but usually very good at fixing things. I may not understand the lingo but I am very capable of following direction. I have common sense which while many consider a virtue I'm not sure it that applies when dealing with this )Q*(#&R97Q^#(*Q&)(*-0(@# tiller.

I'm really good at learning with adequate instruction and I don't mean to dumb it down Barney style.

Another thing I noticed this evening while again checking the I's and the T's...

The throttle, that thing that has the adjustable screw on it, it is on the top of the carb and am a spring on one side and a wire attaching it to a plastic piece that further attaches to the governor(?) that attaches to the bracket on the back side of the tank....

When I move the throttle all the way to the rabbit, the spring is at rest. When I reduce speed nothing on the linkage moves until I on the turtle and the part (metal wire) that connects to the tank doesn't move until I press really hard to make sure speed is actually in the off position.

Even then, when the throttle is in the off position and can not move any further, the adjustable screw doesn't touch the backplate area. This can't be normal, if it is then why even have the adjustable screw there???

Can I post pictures and video in this thread? If I can, I'll gladly take some photos and or video to better explain what I'm trying to say.

I'm very frustrated but am very appreciative and grateful for the help.
 
  #17  
Old 05-02-14, 08:58 PM
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I know what you're describing, but it is normal. The throttle isn't closing because the engine isn't running and the governor isn't trying to force it closed. Once it starts, the governor will try to close it, fighting against the spring tension that is put on it by the lever you move from turtle to rabbit.

The flywheel nut must be torqued pretty tight on this (a torque wrench measures how tight you have made it). A torque wrench isn't necessary, you just have to get it really tight (as tight as you can get it and then another 1/4 turn, lol). Tight like a lug nut on your car. Also, there can be no oil or grease on the flywheel arbor or the crankshaft where the flywheel fits. If there is, the key is surely sheared.

The valves are under the valve cover. It's the stamped out square cover on top of the head, above where the spark plug screws in. You can remove this cover and see the rocker arms and valves. Each rocker arm should be on top of a valve, opening and closing it as you turn the engine. Neither should be loose. If they are loose it could be part of the problem, and if one has jumped out of place, it surely is your problem. If not, it indicates other problems.

The compression is the resistance you should feel as you pull the rope. You know how it gets hard to pull, then easy, then hard, etc...? That's the engine going through it's cycles. The compression stroke is when the engine gets hard to pull. Pull the rope slowly and see if it gets really hard to pull at one point every other revolution.
 
  #18  
Old 05-03-14, 06:13 AM
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OK cool, I understand that about the throttle.

Flywheel is on tight, I'm certain of that. No greased used there.

OK the valves. This link is to a Youtube video of a tiller with an engine that looks just like mine configuration/build wise. On the engine area, the gray panel in the front is part of the panel that covers the flywheel. Are the rocker arms and valves under the solid metal piece right next to it?

Compression. The compression for the most part feels very normal except perhaps a little easier than I remember but there is a pulsing type of give and take on the pull. If compression is an issue, would I even get those two putt putts?
 
  #19  
Old 05-03-14, 07:35 AM
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The video shows another flathead engine, so I don't think you'll be finding any "Rocker Arms" anywhere. Rocker arms are only found on overhead valve (OVH) engines.
 

Last edited by Vermont; 05-03-14 at 08:40 AM.
  #20  
Old 05-03-14, 07:46 AM
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Soooo what should I be looking for?
 
  #21  
Old 05-03-14, 10:28 PM
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Sorry, I gave you the wrong info RE: the valves. Your engine is a flathead. I made a mistake referencing your model number. The valves could still be an issue if a seat came out or a valve is stuck open, but removal of the head or a leakdown test would be required to find out.
 
  #22  
Old 05-04-14, 05:24 AM
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Okey dokey.

Today I shall set to task to exposing the valves. Don't go far!!
 
  #23  
Old 05-07-14, 08:29 AM
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Update of the moment.

I'm still not able to fire the (*#&% up. Pulled the carb again and rechecked, double checked and triple checked everything.

Most I can get out of it when on full choke is a couple of putt putts for about 3 pulls then if I ease back on the choke I'll get another putt putt or two then have to go back to full choke, wash, rinse, repeat.

I think I need to break down and take it in to a local shop.

~~sigh
 
  #24  
Old 05-09-14, 08:30 AM
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OK took it to a local repair guy. I explained to him what happened and what I've done to this point.

He tells me that my carb is probably clogged and will need to be removed and probably a new diaphram. UM HELLO DID YOU LISTEN TO WHAT I SAID or just tune me out because I'm a chick??? Dammit I hate that!

Anywho after again explaining and him then asking if I took the carb all the way off and me again stating that yes, I did it twice I think he got it!!

He pulled on the starter and said that I have no compression and he won't be able to get to it for 4-6 weeks.

The tiller is back in my garage. I pulled the head and the valves look fine but there was a significant coating of carbon. I manually turned the flywheel and watched the valves move. Now I have no "normal" to compare the valve movement too but to me the fluid looks smooth and fluid.

So now what?
 
  #25  
Old 05-09-14, 09:06 AM
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Is the piston moving up and down while you turn the engine?
 
  #26  
Old 05-09-14, 10:31 AM
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Yes!!

I'd have to go back and look to specifically tell you but when I rotate the flywheel each piston will open/close on a consistent cycle. Consistent based on (yet again) having no normal to compare to. It seems like the piston on the left (intake?) and the piston on the right (exhaust?) do not move at the same time EXCEPT during the second (I think) turn of the flywheel there is a moment where both pistons are in a position of movement. Now what I just typed is not making sense to me but I can think of no other way to describe what I am seeing.


Someone (my brother) said that the timing could be off???????? To get to that part of the crankshaft I'll have to remove another panel on the engine block. It seems like I'm "almost there" but damn, I already in waters unknown and am stressing a bit about even being able to put her back together again.

My parts supply store is only open until noon tomorrow then I'll have to wait for Monday...... I'm pretty sure I "should" get a new head gasket based on there being a bit (just a bit) of it on the head once I separated it. That being said, I plan on going there first thing in the morning.

As a side...since I have the engine disassembled to this point would it it smart to just pick up the needed tools/liquid to grind/reseat the valves?


On the upside to all of this....I may not need any advice when I tackle the snowthrower that I could not get running! Thinking positive here!!!
 
  #27  
Old 05-09-14, 07:36 PM
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You're talking about the valves. There is only one piston... in the big hole right next to the valves. Is it moving up and down in the cylinder, or are the valves the only things you see moving?
 
  #28  
Old 05-12-14, 10:00 AM
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Also, give that old head gasket a really close look to see if a breach (blown or tear) is observable. A loss of compression can come from a blown head gasket, non-sealing valves, scored cylinder walls and sticking piston rings, and possibly a few other things.

If you think there might be a breach in the gasket, sometimes you can see a burn mark on the cylinder head and/or block where that breach was, to confirm it. If there is a breach, then that is your $10 problem. Always, put on a new head gasket whenever you remove the head. They are usually a one time use type thing and the head bolts need to be torqued down to a specific torque in a specific sequence, if you don't want to blow it again.
 
  #29  
Old 05-13-14, 10:59 AM
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Cheese both valves and the piston are moving.

OptsyEagle actually when I removed the head, the gasket does have a tear in it. Not sure if it was already there or a result of my removing the head.

I've since cleaned it up but there was carbon on top of the piston and around the exhaust valve, both valves but the exhaust was the worst. The photo is of it cleaned up.

My local shop did not have the parts in stock but I did order a complete set of gaskets. I figured it would be stupid to not change up gaskets while I was in there.
 
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