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old briggs engine, carb inquiry


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10-22-14, 08:35 PM   #1  
old briggs engine, carb inquiry

I acquired an old early 60's era W.S. Darley Company pump which is powered by a Briggs and Stratton model 23AFB engine. This piece of equipment has been sitting neglected for a long long time but apparently wasn't "all that long ago" when it did in fact operate okay. I'm gradually looking it over, checking things out, seeing what I might do to clean it up and hopefully get it running. Here's a picture of it sitting on the work table where I've been looking it over, with a few components removed, including the carb. The next picture is of the carb itself. I have the specific engine info, the type, the serial number, etc. But the carb itself doesn't seem to have any label or stamp indicating its make; but I assume its a Briggs and Stratton but don't know for sure. I'm in the process of gathering/researching anything about the pump and engine (and carb) I can find out. I'm thinking doing some disassembly of the carb next, just to check out the inside condition to the extent I might be able to. Before I do that though, I'd like t at least get a clue on what make of carb this is, what model, etc so I could look into the possibility of acquiring parts for it if necessary. Anybody here seen a carb like this before, maybe help me with identification? Thanks.




 
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10-22-14, 09:21 PM   #2  
It looks like its a medium 2 piece flojet. Here's some info on it.

 
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10-22-14, 10:41 PM   #3  
Thanks a bunch XSleeper. Everything I need to know. Great site there, thanks for the info link!

 
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10-23-14, 01:39 PM   #4  
I removed the crankcase breather. Not sure if these are designed to come apart, or can I somehow pry that cap/lid off the top to help me check/clean it? Or otherwise, what's a good method to do some cleaning of it? I'm guessing it might need cleaning. Just spray some parts cleaner of some kind in there good, then let it drip/dry a while?


 
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10-23-14, 04:13 PM   #5  
I'm not familiar with that part, or at least don't recognize it. I'll have to try and look it up later. I'd probably drop it in a cup full of parts cleaner and let it soak, blow it out with compressed air, and then oil it.

 
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10-23-14, 04:50 PM   #6  
I found out it's called a breather assembly, Briggs part #291603. Your suggestion about how to clean it sounds reasonable to me. Probably will do. thanks. I was just wondering if possibly the cap/lid/top there is at all intended to be removed for cleaning, but probably not. Seems stuck pretty tight on there, and I just wondered if it was just rust holding it maybe, but no probably made not be removed.

 
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10-25-14, 10:20 AM   #7  
In the info as included at the site as linked by XSleeper (post #2 this thread), the following picture is shown of the main needle assembly of the carb and describes it, in picture #8 there, as being a "worn main adjusting needle which is significantly worn and could make it difficult to precisely adjust the main fuel flow". I was wondering what about that needle is probably what would be considered the significantly worn portion. Is it the slight interrupted taper there where the apparent line seems to be, a ways up from the point of the needle? Or is it the pockmarked-looking surface of the brass? Or both maybe?

[/URL]

I took a picture of my main adjusting needle from my carb (shown below). When I first removed it there was some corrosion-looking buildup material on the area of the tip that I seemed to be able to remove, but otherwise it appears like this and I am wondering how it might compare to the other one in regard to wear and whether it too might be considered significantly worn enough to make it difficult to precisely adjust the main fuel flow too. Any comments appreciated. (Chances are my photo below isn't close-up enough to tell much; I need to learn how to get better close-up shots with my camera)


 
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10-25-14, 11:50 AM   #8  
No, that needle is fine. Even the other one in the picture isn't bad. Normally if one gets a really bad ring around it, some twisting with sandpaper smooths it back down again.


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10-25-14, 11:51 AM   #9  
About close up shots... does your camera have a macro option? (the button or icon usually looks like a flower). If so, that will normally allow you to get really close and still focus.


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10-25-14, 12:56 PM   #10  
No, that needle is fine. Even the other one in the picture isn't bad. Normally if one gets a really bad ring around it, some twisting with sandpaper smooths it back down again.
Cool. thanks cheese......

 
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10-25-14, 01:00 PM   #11  
About close up shots... does your camera have a macro option? (the button or icon usually looks like a flower). If so, that will normally allow you to get really close and still focus.
Yep its got a macro option. I had the macro option on, with the icon indicated as you describe. think I need to figure out how to get it to work closer-upper better without losing focus. I have the manual and re-read that part but am still a little unclear. Need to fiddle around with it some more when I have time. Canon Power Shot SD 110 Digital Elph

 
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10-25-14, 05:33 PM   #12  
Disassembly, Cleaning and Repair of Briggs and Stratton Medium Two-Piece Flo-jet Carburetor

The emulsion tube (picture #4). Having helluva time trying to get it unscrewed. It seems to be real tight in there. Tried a bunch different flat blade screwdrivers but all the normal ones I have of which the blade(s) is/are thick enough to fit nicely within in the emulsion tube slot there are too wide at the head to fit in there, if you can get what I'm trying to explain. The drivers I have of which aren't too wide to fit down in there are of course on the too small side to utlilize for this. I don't wanna risk stripping out the brass notch there, as per the warning. Suggestions? "Special tool" required? I did shoot a little PB Blaster in there to hopefully help loosen it up but that didn't seem to help.

 
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10-26-14, 09:31 AM   #13  
In followup to my issue/inquiry to my last post here, the info at the link states:
"Be sure to use a screwdriver that snugly fits the slotted end of the tube (#5) since the tube is made of brass, a soft metal, and is easily stripped or damaged. If there is a build-up of gum, it may be necessary to soak the carb in cleaner prior to removal of the tube."
Does that mean just go ahead and soak the entire carb in cleaner? I can do that, but just wondering if that's really okay to do. I might be concerned about other parts within the carb being damaged (any rubber seals/rings, etc) with soaking for very long in such cleaner.

 
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10-27-14, 11:21 PM   #14  
I use a screwdriver that is too wide for the hole and grind it down to fit well. Sometimes they are really hard to get out. Sometimes you can put the screwdriver in the slot and hit it on the handle like a chisel. This jars the nozzle and threads to break free the connection. I have had one or two that would never come loose and the brass stripped.


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10-28-14, 07:54 AM   #15  
I use a screwdriver that is too wide for the hole and grind it down to fit well.
Hmm, I've been considering doing that but haven't done it (yet).

Sometimes you can put the screwdriver in the slot and hit it on the handle like a chisel. This jars the nozzle and threads to break free the connection
I tried that already, without success, but that was still with the not-really-wide-enough-for-the-slot size screwdriver(s). And when I tried it I didn't wasn't holding the carb in a vise, which I think could help me some too when I do that, especially maybe if I use a thicker blade screwdriver (my one ground down to fit well, per suggestion). Maybe next time, with the carb held in the vise and using my ground down screwdriver with the right thickness of blade, I'll kind of sharply tap the handle end of the screwdriver several times with a soft faced hammer and get lucky that way.

I have had one or two that would never come loose and the brass stripped.
Although I've been trying to avoid stripping the brass so far, it looks like I already slightly stripped the slot. About all I can do now, I think, is try as I just described above. If it's one of those that can never come loose then I suppose I'd have to try to drill it out and see about acquiring a replacement part, but probably hard to find such.

How about my last post here, where I was asking about soaking the entire carb in cleaner. Bad idea? What's holding the emulsion tube in there so tight anyway? Gum? Rust? Corrosion?

 
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10-28-14, 10:48 PM   #16  
Go ahead and soak the whole thing, there is little to be harmed by doing so. The needle may not fare well, but that's about it. Maybe you can get it apart after soaking it.


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10-28-14, 11:00 PM   #17  
Ok will do, if little to be harmed by doing so. Thanks cheese. By the way, I'm still working on grinding down my screwdriver. Takes longer than I thought, even on the bench grinding wheel. Got a ways to go still. I have a feeling it'll still be too tight to turn, even with the ground down screwdriver and the hammering with the soft hammer as discussed. So hopefully, that in combination with a soaking of the whole carb will do the trick.

 
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10-29-14, 08:35 PM   #18  
Update/followup on my last post here:

I had some success after soaking the entire carb, and using my ground-down screwdriver and with the carb held in the vise. Got the threaded head part of the emulsion tube unscrewed but the whole length of the emulsion tube didn't come with it. Instead just the threaded part, as shown next photo below, but the remaining length of the emulsion tube still stuck up in the hole:



Next photo shows the end of the remaining section of the emulsion tube up in there. I tried poking around a little with a stiff wire and a couple of really small screwdrivers to see if maybe I could loosen/dislodge it so it might slide out, but it wouldn't move:



Next two pictures are an attempt to show some idea of the depth to which the end of the emulsion tube is embedded within that hole, one picture with the little screwdriver in the hole touching the end of the tube, next picture showing that screwdriver removed:





So I even ground-down a pair of my skinniest needle nose pliers to see if I could make them grasp onto the end of that emulsion tube in there and be able to pull it out. I did manage to grasp it, but even pulling on it that way it wouldn't pull out. Here's a picture of those pliers:



Dangit, now I'm stuck again. I thought once I would be able to unscrew that end of the emulsion tube it was supposed to pull out the whole length of it, as seems to be indicated in those instructions in the link in the previous post here. Any further suggestions on how I might proceed now, to manage to get the rest of the emulsion tube to slide the heck outta there would be appreciated.

 
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10-29-14, 11:51 PM   #19  
It should have come out as one piece. You might be in for a replacement carb. Try removing the top of the carb anyway and see if you can get the old part of the nozzle out after you get the top off (if you can) and then you may only need a nozzle.


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10-30-14, 08:37 AM   #20  
It should have come out as one piece.
Yeah, guess it broke then.

Try removing the top of the carb anyway and see if you can get the old part of the nozzle out after you get the top off (if you can) and then you may only need a nozzle.
I'll try, see what happens. Even though it states in the instructions in the linked site "The main jet (#3) and the emulsion tube (#4) must be removed before the carb upper body can be separated from the lower body," and also "After the emulsion tube has been removed, the upper body can be separated from the lower body." If the upper and lower carb bodies don't wanna separate with that old part of the nozzle still in there, not sure if I should try to force it though. Probably risk damaging the carb further if I do that. Will see.

Apparently this part which seems to be referred to as the "emulsion tube" is also called the "nozzle"? Or is there any significant distinction in that regard? If I do end up just needing a new nozzle, the right one is probably available on ebay (at least once source I've looked) briggs nozzle 691966 | eBay but trouble is I can't be certain at this point about the particular correct part number for my particular carb, as I'm still a unclear on the exact model number of my carb even though it looks exactly like the flo jet one in that linked site with the disassembly instructions...

 
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10-30-14, 09:20 AM   #21  
Look at the piece that came out to see if it looks like it was broken, from the photo the edge looks pretty smooth, maybe it's supposed to be that way. Have a good one. Geo

 
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10-30-14, 10:12 AM   #22  
Actually, geo, I thought the same thing, that the edge looks pretty smooth, as if it's supposed to be that way. But all the pictures I've seen so far of that part, the nozzle (or emulsion tube or whatever is the accurate part name) seem to show it in its entire length, not separate. So for now I'm not sure until I come up with more info....

edit/update: came up with more info. the specific part I'd need (for the whole length anyway, not separated apparently) is http://www.ebay.com/itm/Briggs-Strat...item33979b0c6e

Meanwhile, will do some more monkeying around and see if I can get the top and bottom carb bodies separated, with that tube/nozzle section still stuck...


Last edited by sgull; 10-30-14 at 10:39 AM.
 
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10-30-14, 10:49 AM   #23  
The names are interchangeable, I just used nozzle that time.

The nozzle does need to be removed to separate the carb halves, but I believe I have done it in the past without taking the nozzle out. It will probably bend the nozzle tube, but so what? You need another one anyway. After the top comes off, the tube will be sticking out a fair amount so you can grab it with some pliers and work it out maybe.


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10-30-14, 11:39 AM   #24  
Ok thanks again cheese, that's helpful. I'll post back with success stories I hope.

 
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10-30-14, 01:18 PM   #25  
The nozzle does need to be removed to separate the carb halves, but I believe I have done it in the past without taking the nozzle out.
I managed too. ^

It will probably bend the nozzle tube, but so what? You need another one anyway
Seems like the mine didn't bend much, very slightly flexed (bent), but not sure if that'll could present a problem, should it be turn out to be at all possible to reinstall (and re-use) my nozzle that separated:



I stuck the tube part back into the threaded part, just for fun, so we could see:



Here's another picture, kind of showing the two tiny holes that would need to be lined up, and stay lined up and secure, if I was to try to salvage this old part and attempt to reinstall and re-use it:



Doesn't seem to be a seal or o-ring of any kind that I can see down (up) in the hole in the carb body from which the separated beveled end of my threaded piece was seated. I guess just the machined surfaces would make the seal in there?

 
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10-30-14, 04:41 PM   #26  
Believe it or not I managed to line up the two tiny holes, and when I pushed the two parts back together (and as well a slight tap with a hammer to get the tube inserted to its original location within the threaded head part) they are actually stuck pretty tight together again, probably sufficient to re-use the entire nozzle business without needing a replacement. Here it is with a thin wire poking through both perfectly lined up holes.



Also, I came across some info here (link below), where some problem areas are discussed in regard to these two piece Flo-Jet carburetors leaking even after putting in a rebuild kit, and am unclear about the specific location being discussed in the second and third to the last paragraphs of the text on this page:
http://www.perr.com/tip9.html
I'm not clear especially about "Remove the threads with a file or on a lathe, so that it just fits smoothly into the hole." Remove the threads on the nozzle? Then how would it stay secured??


Last edited by sgull; 10-30-14 at 05:04 PM.
 
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10-31-14, 01:09 AM   #27  
I haven't ever seen or done that (removing the threads with a lathe), so I don't know what they are talking about but it doesn't make sense to me either. The tube part was soldered into the threaded portion on your carb. It will probably be fine like you have it, but if you have a torch, heat it and let it re-solder itself with the holes aligned perfectly.


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10-31-14, 08:04 PM   #28  
I haven't ever seen or done that (removing the threads with a lathe), so I don't know what they are talking about but it doesn't make sense to me either.
Okay I discovered some further info which helped to clarify what they are talking about. You would take your old used nozzle and utilize it as a sacrificial spare nozzle, grind the threads off of it (with the lathe), apply valve grinding compound to the seat area, insert the nozzle into its hole in the lower carburetor body, and then turn the nozzle back and forth (repeatedly) using a screwdriver to attempt to polish the seat area which is/was noted as a location typically prone to corrosion and thus leakage. Then after the polish treatment with the old sacrificial nozzle, install a new nozzle.
Makes sense. I'll betcha anything my seat area needs some polishin'.

 
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11-06-14, 02:17 PM   #29  
So it's looking now like if I just had a new gasket for between the upper and lower carb body, I could very likely avoid having to obtain (purchase) a full rebuild kit for this carb. That's right, I'm cheap. Is there a feasible alternative short of manually trying to cut out my own gasket from a sheet of gasket material; specifically I'm thinking of some type of gasket making goop that works fine as such an alternative? Any comments appreciated! thanks


 
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11-06-14, 04:12 PM   #30  
Goop and gasoline usually don't play well together, also in the future when you have a problem will it really be a new problem or something created by the goop. Have a good one. Geo

 
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11-06-14, 04:23 PM   #31  
I figured. But didn't hurt to ask I suppose. Thanks geo

 
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12-12-14, 09:31 PM   #32  
I ended up making my own gasket for in between the upper and lower carb body, as I threatened I would. I wasn't sure what type of gasket material would be proper, but just used some of that fiber gasket materal similar to this type that you can get almost anywhere, hardware store etc. Amazon.com: Mr. Gasket 9611 Fiber Gasket Material Sheet: Automotive
I worked meticulously as I could and did a decent job I think (I've seen worse) making one. In fact, here's a picture of it (on the left, next to two identical but old and used broken gaskets:



But gas ended up leaking/seeping out around the gasket location; kind of looking like the visible edge area of my gasket was being saturated and then of course would drip/dribble. So I'm just wondering of perhaps my choice of gasket material was improper/inappropriate for this application. Any comments appreciated. Also, I've heard of people using a thin coat of gasket cement on both sides of the gasket, specifically form-a-gasket aircraft gasket cement which comes in a small can with a brush attached to the cap and you can "paint" it on both sides of the gasket and it remains flexible and seals up well and is also chemical and gasoline resistant. An comments about that appreciated too. thanks

 
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12-13-14, 10:40 AM   #33  
Don't use the gasket sealer, it's not appropriate for this application. If gas is leaking at the gasket, then the float needle isn't shutting the gas off. The gas level in the bowl should not be as high as the gasket.


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12-13-14, 10:54 AM   #34  
Okay. How about that gasket material I was asking/concerned about? The type I used. Is that fine or wrong stuff or what?

 
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12-14-14, 12:05 PM   #35  
It should work fine as long as it's not what is interfering with the float/needle operation.


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12-14-14, 12:59 PM   #36  
Okay cheese I'm fairly certain it's not interfering with the float/needle operation. And I'm finally getting it straight with my understanding in regard of what you just posted "the gas level in the bowl should not be as high as the gasket." For some reason I wasn't initially comprehending that of course the float/needle (when/if working properly) keeps the fuel level down below the level of that gasket, so of course that gasket typically wouldn't be in direct contact with the fuel anyway.
Since my post here #13 where I mentioned the fuel leakage/seepage happening with the carb on the engine, I took the carb back off and am doing a little more "bench testing " it. One of a couple things I think could have been causing the problem was that I may not have had the main jet nozzle threaded completely in good and snug. And I'm double-checking on the float/needle operation, which as I observe it seems to be working good, although it may be possible I might need to try to adjust the float down slightly; not sure about that though because it looks/measures level/parallel as I understand it's supposed to be. I'll still have some tinkering to do to see if I can discover/solve the issue.
Also, it seems apparent there is some warpage of the gasket surface(s?) as the upper and lower body do not match up as tight and perfect as would be ideal. However, it seems to me I have a decent chance of overcoming that imperfection maybe by using a slightly thicker gasket material or maybe doubling up on the gasket, something like that. Because even if I get the gas leakage issue sorted out I still can't be having a bad seal going on there with the gasket.

 
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12-15-14, 01:12 AM   #37  
Yeah, those carbs often seep a little and the flange surface is usually warped a little keeping the gasket from sealing tightly. Some sanding/filing or double up with the gasket should solve the problem.


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12-16-14, 03:11 PM   #38  
I doubled up on the gasket and it seems to have sealed it well that way, within spec anyway, nice and tight it seems. And the issue with the fuel leak/seepage seems to have been due to my simply not tightening up that nozzle all the way as I mentioned. So I might be good in regard to those issues from before.

Now (moving on to another issue), the gas tank on the old Briggs engine looks like this without the cap:



I noticed when I took the tank off to thorougly clean/flush it that the vent thing had come loose off the bottom of the cap and was falling around inside. I retrieved it, and am wondering how necessary it might be that it be there. I suppose if it's really necessary I could maybe try to solder it back on, or just obtain (buy) a new replacement cap if I can find one. Any comment/advice appreciated. Here's some more pics of the topside(s) and bottomside(s) of the vent thing and the cap, as well as a picture of how it'd look if it was fixed in place:








 
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12-16-14, 08:04 PM   #39  
It's a baffle to keep gas from squirting out the hole in the cap. It's not necessary for operation, but it's a good idea for it to be there... slight potential fire hazard I suppose without it. I think it had a gasket made of gasket paper that fit the inside of the cap and had a hole that the baffle fit through and held it in place that way if I recall correctly.


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