Electric Clutch Removal

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  #1  
Old 12-23-15, 01:01 PM
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Electric Clutch Removal

I have been struggling with a 12 volt electric clutch that is stuck on a Kohler 16hp twin that mounted into a 1989 Toro HMR Rear engine rider. The clutch is fine and I don't want to destroy it in the removal process. I have used a puller (VERY CAREFULLY) and twin crowbars (SAME) after soaking the shaft and clutch at the upper mounting point in PB Blaster I cannot budge it loose no matter what. I am going to have to design a tool just for this application unless somebody knows where I can get something already out there I can buy. Any Clues?
 
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Old 12-23-15, 02:28 PM
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With out some numbers to be able to look at some manuals, I am not familiar with how the clutch/shaft is oriented. Is that a flat, a key...??? I don't recall having seen a clutch with set screws but have pulleys...

If it is simply stuck on the shaft I do have some methods that have worked but require patience most of all, a source of heat and cooling.
 
  #3  
Old 12-23-15, 04:53 PM
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Electric Clutch Removal

This engine is a vertical crankshaft 16hp opposed twin Kohler. There is a double pulley directly underneath the engine that is probably set screwed, but it will come up with the engine thru a hole in the frame. Directly below the double pulley is the electric clutch, which operates a belt going to the mower's deck. The electric clutch is independent of the double pulley, but is held onto the shaft by one bolt in the end of the crankshaft. It has never been off the shaft. I have access to acetelene etc but did not want to apply it without some guidance. I want to save the clutch, it works fine right now. I suppose I could get things warm with a welding tip on the end of shaft if you think it will help without damaging anything.
 
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Old 12-23-15, 06:07 PM
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I'm not the pro in this forum but a few things would make it easier for us to help you. A model of the tractor and a picture of the clutch assembly. http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...-pictures.html

I can tell you that the clutch has an electric coil in it that can be damaged by too much heat.
 
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Old 12-23-15, 09:41 PM
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I use 2 large hooked crowbars to pry them off when they are stuck like this. Sometimes the entire front of the mower lifts off the ground doing this, but they usually come off. I put one on one side with the round part of the hook against the bottom of the engine and the end of the hook on the clutch, creating a great leverage on the clutch, then the same on the other side.
 
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Old 12-24-15, 07:32 AM
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Electric Clutch Removal

Thank you Pete and Cheese

I have had no luck using the send photo feature with my software, I can send them to your e-mail if you want. Not much to see, just an electric clutch hanging on a 16 hp kohler twin, I will try the twin crowbar trick one more time. It just bothers me as the metal on top of the clutch does not appear to be that strong. This clutch prevents me from removing the engine from the tractor, so the crowbars will have to press against the sheet metal rather than on the crankcase itself, maybe a good thing.

I will post back my success story.
 
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Old 12-24-15, 08:59 AM
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You removed the dog, pin, bracket, or whatever prevents it from rotating, right?
 
  #8  
Old 12-24-15, 06:10 PM
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Electric Clutch Removal

Yes, there is a bracket that hooks into the spring loaded plate that Supports the driven clutches that prevents the electric clutch from rotating. That came out early, but thanks for checking.
 
  #9  
Old 12-26-15, 06:43 AM
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If you get into a dead end battle with this thing you might look at a bearing race puller. Around here you can borrow those from an auto parts store. The race puller is a split plate that comes down against the shaft behind the race and pulls from there.
 
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Old 12-27-15, 03:19 AM
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I also use a bearing race puller for items like this. My wife bought me one from Harbor Freight a couple years ago. It is the big one not the set they offer. You can use it with a puller.
 
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Old 12-28-15, 09:45 AM
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Electric Clutch removal

Could you possibly give me the Harbor Freight Item Number for this race puller you are describing? It will have to be large enough to span an 8" diameter pully, close down on the back of the clutch to about an inch and a half.
The two arms on the puller that drop down to the end of the crankshaft have to be at least 8" long as well. If that makes any sense.
 
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Old 12-28-15, 09:59 AM
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This is what they are - Harbor Freight - Bearing Splitter & Large Bearing Separator Other sites refer to them as a bearing/race puller, etc.

This a little better one from Harbor: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...,d.eWE&cad=rjt

This looks like the type I've borrowed: Jims 963 Bearing and Race Puller | eBay

I've borrowed them from auto parts stores like Oreillys.
 

Last edited by marbobj; 12-28-15 at 10:24 AM.
  #13  
Old 12-28-15, 10:28 AM
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Elecltric Clutch Removal

Well great minds think alike. I HAVE the first Item you sent me. I can just get that between the frame and the clutch. The problem I have is that the PULLER shown in the photos is way to small to get around the pulley and go up to the expandable race puller in the photo, unless I remove the pulley. (never taken an electric clutch apart and don't want to unless I have to) Harbor Freight has a 12 ton RACE PULLER iTEM NUMBER 66657 that might go around the pulley, and reach up past the rest of the clutch to the expandable race puller but they wouldn't answer the phone to give the dimensions of the item. Maybe you guys have one of these?
 
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Old 12-28-15, 11:24 AM
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No, I'm afraid I don't anyway. I usually borrow one from a store. If the crank end is conular you might try a flywheel removal trick. Drive a couple of wood wedges behind the clutch and against the shaft. Then put the bolt in the end of the shaft tight and rap the bolt head to shake it loose.
 
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Old 12-28-15, 12:00 PM
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It might take a little fenagling to get the right size and length bolts, but, as long as the spreader holes clear the clutch, you can improvise your way around the puller with a heavy enough piece of flat stock or preferably angle. You'll need a right size spacer to fit against the crank, sometimes a socket will work, so won't have the center crew, but can put tension on it with the outside bolts. I would try tightening them down a bit, and rapping the clutch with a hammer, just hard enough to set up some vibration but not enough to damage anything. I have done that with some similarly stubborn things on shafts, torqued them a bit, sprayed good with Break Away or whatever, left it overnight, come back the next day and walked it right off.
 
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Old 12-28-15, 03:58 PM
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This might come to a case of patience if you want to not damage anything and can't find a puller to fit.
Sometimes slow and steady wins the race...
 
  #17  
Old 12-28-15, 05:26 PM
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Electric clutch Removal

If I double the size of the links that hold the puller I have together, I can span the pulley and the clutch, and just reach the bearing race puller, while allowing the bolt that has to tighten to the clutch crankshaft mounting bolt to just slide under the bolt to begin the tensioning process on the bottom of the crank. Hopefully that and slowly allowing the tension and some PB Blaster to work its way into the clutch and crankshaft, I can find everything loose enough to remove the clutch one of these days. Thanks for the suggestions and comments!
 
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Old 12-30-15, 12:58 PM
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I don't recall having stubborn clutches to this point but have had several engine pulleys that took 3 days of babysitting and dinking with.
Used engine oil is also good to use along with the PB. Heat can be used but should be limited and kept to the crank as much as possible. Fill the top with PB and or oil, a low flame on a bolt in the end of the crank. Do not get anything too hot, 30-50 degrees above ambient should be plenty. This helps to wick the oil or penetrant down the shaft. If you heat the crank the diameter increases, if the clutch or pulley heats it's diameter decreases. Some gentle rapping with a hammer on the crank or bolt will also help. Putting a 100W light bulb under neath overnight with oil or PB on top, let it wick over night.
Also once you get some temp in the crank, you can use electronic cleaner or canned air (Upside down) as a quick chill/freeze which will shrink the shaft and begin loosening the rust/corrosion.
Keeping tension on it, even if minimal will help too.
Usually the ones I have done on the third morning I come out to the shop and find the pulley on the floor.

Good luck, let us know how you turn out
 
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Old 12-30-15, 03:54 PM
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Electric Clutch Removal

Since my modified puller and race puller combination was a miserable failure, I was starting to think I might be rebuilding this engine bolted into the mower. (good luck with that!) I will go back to the board with your plan and give the soaking, lightweight heat and constant tension. All of the utube videos on the subject show the darn things falling right off when they take the crank bolt out, what did I do wrong in my last life!?
 
  #20  
Old 12-30-15, 04:26 PM
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Yup, get some tension on it, and let it work for you. When you have a few minutes, give it another shot of Blaster, torque it a bit, and it'll come.
 
  #21  
Old 01-08-16, 01:20 PM
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Electric Clutch removal

The Electric Clutch is removed. Too hard to explain without photos, but the short version works like this. The clutch I have is a Toro Part Number 54-3200. If you look at a drawing of it on Toro.Com you will see that it has several parts but it those parts are basically wrapped around two bearings, one upper, one lower. I had to make a puller (used lathe, milling machine, welder vertical sander,) to insert into the hole where the bolt that holds the clutch to the crankshaft. I then pulled off the lower section after removing the bolts that hold the clutch together with springs wrapped around them.

That was the easy part.

The upper bearing was really fused to the crankshaft, but I had no choice but to attach a 3 arm puller to the top plate to try to remove it. It took a two foot long breaker bar to start The Clutch bearingt moving, more tension that I wanted to, but I had no choice, the clutch had to come off even if I destroyed it. Credit to Toro and their clutch supplier, as I really thought I would bend something when it was all over but nothing was bent. Also credit to PB Blaster, as it was apparent that some of it actually penetrated the contact areas.

Now I get to rebuild the engine.

Thanks to everyone who replied!
 
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Old 01-08-16, 07:31 PM
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WoW! Nice work and persistence.
That sounds nearly as bad as a rear wheel on an MTD which is the only thing similar, I recall beating me.
 
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Old 01-09-16, 12:42 AM
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Oh man those MTD rear whels can be so tough. I have pulled holes completely through the rims on them and ruined the whole wheel trying to get them off. Now I take the torch and cut em off if they won't come easily enough.
 
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Old 01-09-16, 01:31 PM
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heh cheese.
Luckily the worse was on was my own and thus, my extensive use of slime that even sealed the sidewalls. For others tho, I have changed a tire or installed a tube with the wheel in place. Of course I didn't have a hot knife at the time either
 
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Old 01-09-16, 06:48 PM
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If I have to put it back on, I change them while still mounted like you do. Here in the past few years, the only ones I've had to mess with much were ones that I was stripping down for parts. With those, I cut the rims off the axles so I can save the transmission.
 
  #26  
Old 01-10-16, 09:06 AM
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Electric Clutch Removal

You guys sound like you have tackled more of this stuff than I have, so I am going to throw one more at you. There is a double vbelt pulley attached to the crankshaft that rides above the clutch when it is installed. I can now pull the engine completely out of the tractor, and can get to this with tools and heat if I have to. Do you like to heat the shaft and the pulley at the same time, just heat the pulley, or put heat on the crankshaft end?
 
  #27  
Old 01-10-16, 09:50 AM
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Heat the pulley just outside the shaft - all around it - no more heat than necessary. If you can do it without heat, though, go that route.
 
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Old 01-10-16, 11:21 AM
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I only use heat actually to heat up the penetrant or oil. The pulley will likely heat faster but when it does the diameter will shrink. When the shaft is heated it will expand, either way making the fit tighter. Get the fluid in there then use heat to bubble it through.
If you can get a puller on it and some reps with an impact will some times pop it also.
 
  #29  
Old 01-15-16, 02:47 PM
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Electric Clutch Removal

OK guys the electric clutch is off and the engine is off to the rebuilder. I want to test the electric clutch on the bench as there is a myriad of stuff that has to go on once the clutch is in place to operate the twin belt driven transmissions that drive the two rear wheels. The clutch circuit had a blown fuse, which I replaced, and when I hit the pto switch there is power the male plug that fits into the female plug connected to the clutch. I cannot hear, or feel any action in the clutch when I flip the pto switch. I have continuity across the female clutch plug when I test it with a meter.It may have a short, or maybe it is supposed to be that way? I have not re adjusted the air gap yet as I thought the possibility of a short was going make that meaningless. Ideas?
 
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Old 01-15-16, 05:18 PM
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If you are able to plug it into the circuit and have a good battery, all you should hear/feel is a click. See if you can spin the clutch half with no power then with power applied it should not spin.
 
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Old 01-15-16, 05:58 PM
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Electric Clutch Removal

I have no difference in drag on the clutch (with the switch on or off) and heard no click. I have not reset the air gap yet. Other than the beating it took trying to get it off the hard way, I don't know what I did to cause it to fail. Its only 26 years old, I expect it to go another ten.
 
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Old 01-16-16, 01:57 AM
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Haha... 26 years ain't too bad. I like to see a little over 2 ohms in a clutch. Any less and it's shorted.
 
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Old 01-16-16, 10:34 AM
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Ok, so with the air gap @.015 (within specs) and cleaned up contacts, power to all connections good, and the clutch dead on RX1 (2 ohms), the clutch engages on the bench with an old CB power supply that puts out 13.8 volts. When I put it in the tractor with the well charged battery It won't engage. I have bypassed all the safety switches, and I know I have 12 volts to the clutch. The only thing I can think of is that the mag on the kohler may put out more voltage and that it needs it to engage? Remember that the engine is downtown at the rebuilders.
 
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Old 01-16-16, 11:55 AM
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Are you grounding the clutch to the frame/battery?
Actually the mag does not supply voltage, there is a separate coil under the flywheel that charges the battery. The battery is actually what supplies voltage to the clutch.
Try hooking your charger to the battery, put the clutch in the circuit, ground the clutch body to the frame via another jumper and test.
 
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Old 01-16-16, 12:03 PM
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It sounds like if you can make it work on the bench it should be ok. You might also try just using the battery on the mower and connect the same as you did on the bench, just in case a safety switch or other issue is involved with the engine removed.
 
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Old 01-16-16, 03:22 PM
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Electric Clutch Removal

I will do all of the above you suggest and post back my results. I can still put the clutch back in and test it before I hook up all the belts and linkage after the engine gets back. They say mental challenges prevent altheimers and dementia. so I keep going....
 
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Old 01-16-16, 04:57 PM
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. :rockon:
 
  #38  
Old 01-22-16, 06:57 PM
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Electric Clutch Removal

I reset the clutch to .012 and wired it into the tractor. It locked into engagement when I hit the switch. Should be good to go. Pulled the pulley off with a little heat. On my way!

Thanks for all the replies!
 
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Old 01-23-16, 11:42 AM
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Thanks for the update
 
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